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H&R had some, who made those, H&R ?
Pedersoli made them for Navy Arms and Dixie Gun Works is still selling them:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Note: 3-groove, .450"-bore/.458"-groove diameters, 1:22" twist in the military rifle and carbine, 32.5" and 22" barrel lengths respectively.
The Officer's Model/Sporter has 6-groove, .452"-bore/.458"-groove diameters, 1:18" twist, barrel length of 26" and a Gemmer Stick !
That is a 2017 Dixie catalog with prices updated to 2021. Around $200 bucks extra over the last 5 years.

I found the carbine on the shelf at Bud's in Lexington, KY about 5 years ago. Looked unfired, and I paid half of MSRP.
But the slider on the barrel sight was missing a screw or worse.
I bought an entire replacement sight from VTI REPLICA GUN PARTS, Lakeville, CT, $135.00: Good as new.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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Case-hardened breech block is a nice touch:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The front sight could be improved:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

3-groove rifling, and I slugged it, 1:22" twist and, best I can tell, .458" groove, .450" bore:

[Linked Image]

The End of this reply to myself:

[Linked Image]


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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You are also a bad influence!


Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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H&aR built their trapdoor's. They did some monkeying around with the latch on the block, and it wasn't uncommon for the breechblock to come flying open once in a while when the rifle was fired. Their sights weren't a particularly good representation of the real trapdoor sights either, and I know some folks had the sights replaced with original sights.
Interesting to note the NPS bought a lot of H&R carbines to use as displays in some of their museums in western forts. When you press up as close to the glass as you can at Fort Laramie cavalry barracks and look at the rack of carbines you can see the HR barrel markings.
But on a better note they did buy real Colt SAA for use by the living history folks at the Fort.

Last edited by Ranch13; 04/29/21.

the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Is the locking cam on the Pedersolis pinned on the shaft? One of the complaints of the H&R replicas was that the cam is held in place by a set screw and they could slip on the shaft and create a condition where it wouldn't lock the breech bolt securely. I've read of incidents of "auto ejection" upon firing. I've heard of folks drilling and pinning or replacing the locking cam with original parts that were one piece.


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Originally Posted by tmitch
Is the locking cam on the Pedersolis pinned on the shaft? One of the complaints of the H&R replicas was that the cam is held in place by a set screw and they could slip on the shaft and create a condition where it wouldn't lock the breech bolt securely. I've read of incidents of "auto ejection" upon firing. I've heard of folks drilling and pinning or replacing the locking cam with original parts that were one piece.


Yikes !
Sadly, yes, the Pedersoli is pinned with a set screw.

[Linked Image]

Here is my 1890-vintage .45-70 Gov't. shooter:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Better stick with the carbine load in the replica, 405-grainer at 1300 fps: .45-70-405
Rifle load, 500-grainer at 1200 fps: .45-70-500
Supposedly both bullet weights used 70 grains of BP for about 1300 fps.
Another carbine load might be the "cadet" load for the wee lads: .45-55-405


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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Originally Posted by Ranch13
H&aR built their trapdoor's. They did some monkeying around with the latch on the block, and it wasn't uncommon for the breechblock to come flying open once in a while when the rifle was fired. Their sights weren't a particularly good representation of the real trapdoor sights either, and I know some folks had the sights replaced with original sights.
Interesting to note the NPS bought a lot of H&R carbines to use as displays in some of their museums in western forts. When you press up as close to the glass as you can at Fort Laramie cavalry barracks and look at the rack of carbines you can see the HR barrel markings.
But on a better note they did buy real Colt SAA for use by the living history folks at the Fort.


Dixie notes the replica sights by Pedersoli are not exactly right, a reasonable facsimile.
I had to break out an excellent book on "The .45-70 Springfield."
Excerpt below for review purposes, buy this book:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That Buffington sight has 5 different notches and holes to aim through and goes from 200 to 2000 yards, with a slick windage adjustment too.
Here it is at maximum elevation and maximum left windage,
shooting north with a west wind, hold butt of rifle under armpit to get a sight picture on target 2000 yards away:

[Linked Image]

Below is the final evolution of the front sight, shallow dovetail with a tiny block brazed onto the barrel, and a sight blade pinned into that block.
The great refinement there is the radiused top rear of the tiny blade:

[Linked Image]

The one immediately preceding it was flat perpendicular all the way to the top of the rear of the blade.

[Linked Image]

3-grooved and 1:22" twist, .458"-grooved. Might need to have the crown freshened.
There is still plenty of rifling left, but the point of the ramrod bayonet has been flattened.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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It is interesting with the Buffington sights, if a person loads a 405 gr bullet to 1300 fps, just how close those sights are to the elevation marks.


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I have the H&R officers model and two original infantry rifles (one 1884 vintage and the other 1886). The H&R cost 265.00 when purchased in 1971. The next year I bought a H&R Shikari which shot better than the OM and could be loaded a bit hotter as well. About 70 dollars, as I recall. The officers Model is an exceptionally nice rifle to carry. Well balanced and slim. The tang sight was a turkey and I replaced it. GD

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Originally Posted by Ranch13
It is interesting with the Buffington sights, if a person loads a 405 gr bullet to 1300 fps, just how close those sights are to the elevation marks.


Not very close most likely.
One would have to use BP and original ballistics to hope to be close with the 500-gr bullet and the Buffington sight graduations, surely.
Just for yucks I used the RCBS external ballistics calculator for the two bullet weights:

500-gr Gov't. Lyman 457125 with quoted BC of 0.391
405-gr RNSP Hypothetical with proportional BC of 0.317

Zeroed for 2000 yards, assuming 1300 fps for both bullet weights:

500-grainer must be launched at 7* 29.7' elevation with max ordinate of 3098.60" (258.2 feet) at 1117.2 yards.

405-grainer must be launched at 9* 2.4' elevation with max ordinate of 3923.60" (326.0 feet) at 1140.60 yards.

That does not mean that one cannot have some fun by working out the sight settings for whatever load is used,
whether 500-gr or 405-gr with BP or, heaven forbid, smokeless.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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What sort of man bun short sock wearing person doesn't shoot black in a trapdoor?

And yes those Buffingtons are very close to right on with either the 405 or 500 gr, and even the original postel bullet when propelled by a proper charge of black.
I suppose it would be possible to waste a bunch of time with the smokeless junk and a chronograph to match the blackpowder velocity,, but why some one would want to do that escapes me.


the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Originally Posted by Ranch13
What sort of man bun short sock wearing person doesn't shoot black in a trapdoor?

A man bun and short socks ! No, Brian Pearce does not go about his business like that,
even though his article featured only one GOEX FFg load, "To round out the shooting session ..."
See RIFLE 209 "Model 1873 U.S. Springfield at Long Range."


And yes those Buffingtons are very close to right on with either the 405 or 500 gr, and even the original postel bullet when propelled by a proper charge of black.
I suppose it would be possible to waste a bunch of time with the smokeless junk and a chronograph to match the blackpowder velocity,, but why some one would want to do that escapes me.

I suppose also it is possible to waste time and Holy BP futtzing around to get a 405-grainer and a 500-grainer close to right on with the same sight settings ?
Just depends on how close "very close" must be to satisfy the one doing the futtzing,
and how close the range is for the targets being futtzed.
The 405-grainers were not supposed to be as accurate as the 500-grainers anyway.
For long range futtzing I personally would prefer the 500-grainer futtz.
Agreed, futtzing with smokeless is like taking your sister to the prom.


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Not much of a problem 70 grains of 2f with the 405 and 68 with the 500


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I don't doubt that might put both bullets to "very close" to the same sight setting at some point somewhere between 0 and 2000 yards.

Brian Pearce load in his 32-5/8" barrel on a Trapdoor with Buffington rear sight:

501-gr Saeco 881 roundnose (20:1 lead/tin), a close copy of the 1882-approved "Government" bullet
Winchester case
WLR primer
52*F
GOEX FFg 68.0 grains (lubed with SPG) >>> 1,298 fps

Just to play devil's advocate I note he used LBT Soft Blue Lube on his smokeless loads,
same bullet, and other specifics:
XMP-5744 28.0 grains >>> 1,315 fps (duplicates BP load)
IMR-3031 38.0 grains >>> 1,360 fps (most accurate 501-grainer load)
IMR-4198 31.0 grains >>> 1,432 fps (produced second best accuracy)
Varget 44.0 grains >>> 1,516 fps: (no comment on accuracy)

Shockingly, he got best accuracy from the old war horse with a longer and pointier 510-gr RCBS 45-500-BPS,
nearly a spitzer but for the 0.145"-diameter FN meplat:

Varget 44.0 grains >>> 1,508 fps (most accurate load tested)

His judgements on these loads and many more (smokeless) were arrived at with 200-yard shooting.

600-yard shooting was done with both bullets.
501-gr RN Saeco at 1300 fps with smokeless shot 2 feet high with Buffington 600-yard setting.
At 1500 fps with smokeless, it shot "several feet" higher still.
Sight was adjusted downward to get on the paper tacked to his 4'x8' target board.

A few days and a trigger job later he tried the 510-gr RCBS Semispitzer-small-FN with 44.0 grains of Varget, 1508 fps average.
He pulled/called the last of the ten shots fired at 600-yards.
The sights were "a whisker high when the trigger broke."
Nine shots went into 9 inches vertical by 8-1/2" horizontal spread.
The tenth shot made the vertical spread 14"

Pretty good shooting, good clean fun, like taking his sister to the prom.

BTW, Brian Pearce said his loads did not exceed 20,000 CUP, some were as low as 17,000 CUP.
All had pleasantly little muzzle blast.
CUP = PSI in the .45-70 Gov't.


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The 22"-barreled Carbine and 32-5/8"-barreled Rifle would of course require very different graduations when both are sighted to 2000 yards.
10-5/8" shorter sight radius would give the Carbine even more elevation on target with same length slide elevation on rear sight.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Using the very top notch on the slide set like this would be for the 1,650-yard setting, dang near a mile, 1760 yards.

Brian Pearce noted the Christmas tree notch gave a better sight picture.
The tiny aperture below it is big enough to show some of the block that the front blade is sitting in,
spoiling the centering of the blade tip for him.
I tend to agree.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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So, I slept on it, and picked out two bullets to try in my replica carbine and my real rifle:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I hear that once you go Black you don't want to go back with a Trapdoor.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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I finally slugged my antique .45-70 Trapdoor.
Measuring 3-groove rifling requires a bullet measuring jig and mathematics that escape me at the moment.
Best I can tell it is about .450" bore diameter and about 0.460" groove diameter, or larger !

Funny thing that the CVA Paramount .45-caliber muzzle loader has very similar rifling,
except it is 8-groove and easily measured.
The bore diameter is 0.450" and groove diameter is 0.462".
The Powerbelt ELR .45-cal/ nominally 280-grain (actual 290-grain) bullet is a soft lead, copper-plated bullet only 0.450" diameter with a plastic tip leading and a plastic skirt trailing.
Somehow that contraption obturates in the rifling ?
Or does it fly like a badminton birdie ?
It takes 98.0 to 105.0 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209 to make it fly straight at 2200 to 2350 fps from a 26"-long barrel.

Trapdoor and Paramount both have 1:22" twist.

IIRC, military loads of grease-grooved bullets were cast as hard as 1:12 tin/lead.
They are reported to have been 0.457" diameter according to Hoyem.
They obturated with BP.
The 405-grain hollow base with less inertia might have needed the assistance of a lead skirt as a "power belt."
That the heavier, plain-base, 500-grainer would be more prone to obturate without such assistance would not be an accuracy detriment.

Maybe the Saint Bagwell load of a .457"/480-gr Lyman 457121 PH bullet with 66 grains of FFFg GOEX,
with CCI-BR2 primer would be a good one in the 1890-vintage Trapdoor ?
That would be a good thing.
That would be my third bullet for the old warhorse.
If 1:12 and .457" would work, surely 1:20 and .457" would too.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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"Finally, the picture below is from the US range at Sea Girt in 1899. It shows a shooter in an unusual variant of the back position, known as the "Texas Grip" invented by Sergeant Tabler, of the 22d U.S. Infantry. The gun sling is under the left leg above the knee, that leg resting on the right, the right hand so placed that the trigger is pressed with the thumb, the left arm behind the head and the hand grasping the top of the butt."

[Linked Image]

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/art-of-shooting/the-back-position

The sling on a Trapdoor found a use there !
Cleaning from the muzzle is the only thing not fun about a Trapdoor.

Texas Grip brings new meaning to "trigger thumb."

Frank C. Barnes says the military loads used 16:1 lead/tin.
405-grainer with 70 gr BP, 1365 fps in Trapdoor military rifle
405-grainer with 55 gr BP and 3 felt wads, 1150 fps in Trapdoor military carbine
500-grainer with 70 gr BP, 1315 fps in Trapdoor military rifle: Most efficient load.


Ron aka "Rip" for Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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.458 Winchester Magnum, Magnanimous in Victory
THE WALKING DEAD does so remind me of Democrap voters. Donkeypox.

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