Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

I need to measure the throat in my 70 and see how long it is actually.

Those 450’s sound quite darned powerful.

Numerologically interesting:



450 at 2450 or bust !
There are also some newfangled ball powders good in the .223/5.56 that are also good in the .458 WM.
And I never went past 81 grains of H4895 with a 450-grainer.
That would make a dandy compressed load if needed to get to 2450 fps with 3.562" COL from a 24" barrel.
Afterall, the 400-grain Woodleigh does +2600 fps at 3.425" COL with heavily compressed load.
But compressed loads are another excuse for the Lottites to cry foul, whenever the .458 WM+ beats the .458 Lott.
If the SAAMI .458 Lott has a 50 fps advantage over the SAAMI-restricted .458 WM (60,000 psi and 3.340" COL),
then the .458 WM+ has at least a 50 fps advantage over the .458 Lott at 62,500 psi and 3.600" COL.

Recall:

Sir Jerry has done this at 3.565" COL, which is very cool:



And Sir Bob did this at even shorter COL ! Way cool:

Another WELL SAID is the latest from Sir Bob at:
www.bigbores.ca

Hey, I know that I’ll never get to use all that a .458 Win Mag can deliver other than in range testing, but that experience has had its own rewards in its uniqueness… sort of like the finding of a rare gem. To a gemologist that would be the experience of a lifetime. Again, similar to a unique piece of art to an artist. In either case, the joy is in the finding and possession of something rare and beautiful in their eyes, not just the potential monetary value. For myself, the personal discovery of the .458’s potential, without and before the findings of others that I was aware of, has been like an astro-scientist discovering secrets of the universe that hadn’t come to light previously! Especially is that so when so much denial and negativity falsely surrounded the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum so that lies were manufactured to justify the creation of “new” Big Bores such as the .416 Remington and .458 Lott. Not only so, but a resurrection of “old” Big Bores were flooding the market, such as the .404 Jeffrey and .416 Rigby that were said to be The Answer to the failure of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Talk about a rush by authors to deal a death blow to the .458 Win, as well as digging holes to bury it! Ross Seyfried, noted gun guru and author, predicted it’s demise as soon as the .416 Remington was announced! Not that there’s much wrong with the .416 Remington, which I’d prefer over the Rigby, but it isn’t a .458 Win Mag in versatility!

Then there are those spokesmen and authors who have done harm to the perception of the .458 WIN with faint praise, and in making excuses for it! If anyone NEEDS more than 5000 to 6000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy from a 300gr to 550gr/.458-caliber for any earthly creature, then they need to be excused!

.458 Winchester Magnum owners are now coming out of their closets, no longer needing to be embarrassed for owning one! Rather, they can hold their heads high knowing they have the finest of all BIG BORES!

That's a great write up. If I didn't have so much home building going on. I would be posting up . Things at least somewhat useful. Alas I have to read, dream and think.
I was wondering how 4166 works in the 458. Has anyone tried it yet.
No signs of H335 on the shelves yet . Nor H4895 or AA2460.
But I do have some 2230. So all is not lost.

Here's one for y'all to chew on:

From one of my correspondents on : BULLETS for Big Bores - the .458 Winchester Magnum

"One crazy combination that works in the .458 Win Mag Ruger is a Lehigh 528 grain Match Solid over 74 grains of H335 at an overall length of, get this, 4.22 inches. My tests with that one gave 2186 fps at a measured pressure of 60 kpsi."

Lately, I've been getting some gems from the .458 WIN fraternity.


Maybe Sir Ron could add that to his "to do" list.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Standard 458 Win Mag chamber will be plenty Big B, i had a rube goldberg parts gun in 375 AI built up on an old model 70 action i torched the throat on in 7mm STW, pulled the AI barrel, had a spare barrel in 375 H&H, had 'smith install that one and sent it to JES for the 458 Win Mag rebore-rechamber, a 458 WM built on a 375 H&H length action is a whole house of hell waiting to be unleashed.

Sir Ron, i just missed some AA 2230 in stock, out friend sir Hannay sent me a pm about it in stock, i had a crazy hit and miss, hurry up and wait cluster of a day, checked a bit ago, GONE! oh well, one of these days i'll catch it in stock, i have 100 WW-Super cases FL sized, annealed, trimmed and tumbled to a sparkling shine waiting for the powder and to set the big 450gr TSX's in at 3.565 inch, bet i can get an accurate 2450 fps with the 2230.

A blast from the past follows:

".458 Lott, Jack's Legacy"
by Ross Seyfried
RIFLE #204 Nov-Dec 2002, pp. 22-26
Ross Seyfried

THE COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENT OF A FINE BIG-BORE CARTRIDGE -- AND WHY IT EXISTS.

(Ross starts it off with a sort of sub-subtitle as his first short paragraph of the article:)
Notice the prominence of the word "commercial."
Is this a wink and a nod to the Lottite Commercial Cabal ?)

To begin at the beginning, I must do two things that

surprise me and then ask some very major ballistic questions.

(Remember the phrase "ballistic questions" for it starts this off and also ends it for Ross.)

First, I will mildly disagree with my late friend Jack Lott.

Second, I will, now with a "very-mild" connotation, defend the .458 Winchester.

(Very mild my ass !)

Then we look at the first professional, "pressure-gun" data for the Lott.

This data is wildly different than we expected, and we are only able to ask an educated, Why?

The goal is to offer a good understanding of the whys and wherefores of a fine round, the .458 Lott,

now adopted by Hornady and Ruger ...

(Well, boo hoo for the .458 Lott and HOO RAH for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
We now skip to the last 2 pages of these 5 pages of true enlightenment.)

... You can see the complete load workup from the Hornady lab.

The ballistician tells me he worked to a maximum of 62,000 psi

(electronic piezo) and that the barrel was a Wiseman and nearly identical

to the company's .458 Winchester pressure barrel.

(Both pressure barrels were 24" long and .458" in groove diameter.
The .458 Lott had 1:10" twist, the .458 Winchester Magnum had 1:14" twist.
NO EXCUSE !)

The largest surprise was that he was

only able to wring 2,250 fps out of the Lott

with one powder, Winchester 748.

Maximum data for several other powders is within

a few tenths of a grain of their maximum

for the .458 Winchester.

The Lott case should have much more

internal capacity than the Winchester,

and therefore, it should take significantly more

of the same powder to achieve the same ballistics.

(But this is not so, because the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat produces greater "effective" case capacity
and pressure reduction at shorter Cartridge Overall Length for the same bullet.
Therefore, we could possibly model the .458 Winchester Magnum in QuickLoad
by adding about 13 grains of water to its default gross case capacity,
even though COL remains 3.340".)

We also see that the maximum load of 4320 being 73.6 grains,

where historical data went almost 13 grains higher.

I knew the old published loads of 4320 were a bit hot,

but only by a few grains.

Accounting for the next 9 grains between proven working loads

and Hornady's maximum, is difficult.

(Not so difficult if you realize that Jack's first rifles
were re-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum Rifles with longer throats
than the SAAMI .458 Lott that Hornady was testing.
Changing powder lots in the Lotts might be a secondary difference from the old days.
But here is how IMR-4320 shook out:)

.458 Lott, 3.600" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 62,000 psi (for MAP 62,500 psi), 73.6 grains >>> 2100 fps

.458 WinMag, 3.340" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 59,500 psi (for MAP 60,000 psi), 73.8 grains >>> 2100 fps

(That is enough to make a Lottite cry.
Be sure to have a hanky handy if you have to discuss the facts with a Lottite.)

Last but not least, Reloder 15 is shown with 76.6-grain

maximum load and only 2,150 fps.

Two things about this one confuse me.

First, RL-15 is usually quite close to 748 in charge weights.

Second, the load is far behind that for the .416 Remington,

a reasonably similar cartridge where RL-15 is the hands-down favorite.

How could all this be possible?

(Perhaps the SAAMI MAP for the .416 Remington Magnum
allowing it 65,000 psi has some small contribution to the confusion ?)

I believe we can point our fingers at a few possibilities.

First, there is the common syndrome of wildcats, even established wildcats,

being overloaded by modern scientific pressure standards.

Next, there is the probability that the Hornady pressure barrel

is not only extra, extra tight, but also may well have an

unrealistically short throat.

(Is Ross Seyfried accusing SAAMI of being incompetent for the way the SAAMI .458 Lott is throated ?
He already said the Lott and Winchester barrels were "nearly identical."
Now he is suggesting tighter groove/bore in the Lott barrel ?
The small difference in twist rates is an insignificant difference.)

The combination would result in excess pressure with very normal loads.

(WELCOME TO THE SAAMI .458 LOTT, ROSS.
That is just SAAMI .458 Lott ballistics as usual.)

Also, the cases are Hornady manufacture,

a brand that has never been used before in the Lott.

This is a big wild card, because the internal capacity

may be much different than the cases we are used to.

(If Ross had checked a few cases for water capacity, easily done in a few minutes,
it would have eliminated this plausible deniability of disappointment with the .458 Lott.)

Therefore as promised, I leave you

only with questions, not answers.

But, rest assured in the future

we will seek and find the ballistic truth.

In the meantime, be cautious with your new Lott.

Things may not be what they have appeared to be in the past.

Well, that is just golden !
The wildcat .458 Lott was throated with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum leade to same length from breech face to full rifling.
The SAAMI .458 Lott is not !
Ross never could come clean about this.
He later simply issued a flat out DENIAL OF THE .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM and disappeared.
Very suspicious behavior on his part ... I suspect threats from the Lottite Commercial Cabal, my favorite conspiracy theory.

Sir Bob,

Is that load from The Maz ?
He did good work.
I would want to shoot that 528-gr VLD Lehigh at max speed in a 1:14" twist,
but will need a 1:8" twist for subsonic and suppressed, 1000-yard shooting with that bullet !
I might get to it eventually.

Sir Jerry,

Hang in there.
The weeds have been mowed and the rain has stopped for the weekend.
You have shown the way with your 3.565" COL with the 450-gr TSX.
Now I must stop flapping my fingers on the keyboard and go gitterdun.

Sir Ron,

Yes, it was the Maz.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

What ?
No comments on this Hornady lab data ?:

.458 Lott, 3.600" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 62,000 psi (for MAP 62,500 psi), 73.6 grains >>> 2100 fps

.458 WinMag, 3.340" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 59,500 psi (for MAP 60,000 psi), 73.8 grains >>> 2100 fps

This is perfectly understandable due to the throating difference:
SAAMI .458 Lott is too tight and too short.
SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is perfection.

Speaking of how easy it is to blow a primer with the SAAMI .458 Lott ...

I am proud to say I finally blew another primer with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
This is my second such achievement.
First one was about 35 years ago using IMR-4198 and a 400-grainer in R-P brass, in a Remington 700 BDL "Safari"
IIRC.
I have some loads to disassemble now.
I quit when I achieved the lock-up of Daisy the Ruger No. 1,
as the rain was about to pour from the sky.
I went home and opened her by pulling hard enough on the lever for the extractor to jump the belted-case rim.
A loose primer fell out, recovered.
The Norma brass case was pushed out easily with a ML ramrod.
See photos below.
Daisy is ready to go again.









Is the Norma brass soft ?
Does the temperature change of 42*F warmer have something to do with this, compared to my previous 450-gr TSX top load ?
The 500-grain TBSS with AA-2460 at +2350 fps from a 24" barrel is still tops, thank you Sir Jerry.
The 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps is still plenty good, using only 80 grains of AA-2230 at 3.565" COL.
Apparently 500-grain weight and compactness of length make the TBSS solid more efficient at kinetic energy production.

I will stick with Hornady and W-W Super brass for top performance with smokeless loads of 250-gr to 600-gr bullets,
whether jacketed or monometal, including PC-painted hardcast.

My preferred use for Norma .458 Win. Mag. brass is still to use it for duplexed BP and paper-patched:

Sir Ron,

I had noted the variances in powder charges between the Lott and .458 Win immediately on purchasing Hornady's 7th Edition, sometime before I read Ross's article on the same.

I had checked with one of the top (or the top) ballistics' guy, when Hornady was doing renovations, and asked questions about the difference in case volume between their Win and Lott cases. He scrambled a bit to find the data (due to renovations), and when located these numbers were given to me: 94.2 for the .458 Win and 102.6 for the Lott. That's nothing like Ross' claim, and it explained to me why so little difference between the two with equal length barrels. Also, keeping in mind the higher psi for the Lott by SAAMI. Then he also gave the "freebore" or leade distinctions using the same 500gr. For the WIN it was over .7 and the Lott something under .2. So there's little mystery left as to why the .458 WIN can match the Lott, or exceed it, when the heavies are seated longer than the Lott at less pressure.

All that, of course, you've pointed out several times. But I thought some would like to know the real distinctions in water capacity between the two HORNADY cases, which is only 8.4 grs water, or 7 grains of the same powder when the same bullet is seated to the same depth. Of course, one doesn't NEED to seat bullets to 1/2" in the WIN. 1/4" will suffice in the Ruger No.1 or M70 and CZ 550 with a lightly compressed powder charges and a LEE crimp die (especially if a cannelure tool is used, as in your suggestion).

Then, as Ross alluded to, in some loads with the same powder, there's virtually no distinction in charge and results; except that the .458 Win is doing it at 59,500 psi and the Lott at 62,000 Examples: IMR 4320 and IMR 4064.

ANYONE, with less than a high school diploma can clearly see the math - IF THEY WANT TO!

Another thing: Even the LOTT that Jack built with the .458 Win throat, couldn't exceed the COL of a .458 WIN with an action that allows it! They would be the same, except the .458 that "Jack built" was a wildcat without limits in PSI (or until something broke!). There's no doubt now that the folk at Winchester knew what they were doing when the original .458 Winchester Magnum was brought out in 1956.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Well sung !
Sir Bob, aka Brother Bob, is lead singer in the choir, and he is a virtuoso !
I can't carry a tune in a bucket, compared to him.

But I can try some .40-cal balls in .45-cal sabots,
and some 7-1/2 shot in the Speer .45-cal shot capsules, trying two capsules in one .458 WM case.
That size shot is great for a wide range of pest shooting.
So is a .40-cal ball quite flexible for a wide range of game.
Will try them with next outing for the self-cleaning, paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads.

The possibilities for .458 Winchester Magnum exploits is greater than with any other cartridge.
We are just getting started here.

All Good Sir Ron, seems 82-83gr AA 2230 may be the ticket for 2450 fps with the 450gr TSX's in my WW-Super brass, 3-4 grains under primer blow is a safe spot, and i agree, Norma brass is soft, has been since way back in the day when i was shaking 460 WBY hulls to get more imr-4350 under those 500gr hornadys , i indeed exceeded the listed 2700 fps, at 2800 fps the brass was good for a couple firings.

Sir Jerry,
I always stopped at 115 grains IMR-4350 and 2500-ish fps back in the day.
Hence never had a problem with the 460 Wby brass made by Norma.

I would have gone ahead with the 83-gr charge AA-2230 in Hornady brass at 3.565" COL,
but for my rifle being stuck shut by the 86-gr charge in Norma brass,
and the rain clouds blowing in from the southwest. Dang that Gulf of Mexico air mass !
But I will not try the 84-gr charge in the Hornady brass at 3.565" COL with the 450-gr TSX.
That charge worked nicely at 3.685" COL.
Increasing the COL from 3.565" to 3.685" effectively increases case capacity by 5.0 grains of water, exactly.
(41.66 grains of H20 for each inch of .458-cal diameter cylinder)
Thus, Hornady brass at 3.685" COL becomes 0.5 gr bigger than the Norma brass at 3.565" COL.
Hornady and W-W Super are better brass than that softer and thinner Norma in .458 WM !

Yep, from my results 83-gr charge ought to be +2450 fps at 3.565" COL in a 24" barrel, IF
compression of the powder in the Hornady or Winchester brass does not do what it did in the Norma brass.
I am liking noncompressed AA-2230 more and more.
80 grains at 3.565" COL and
84 grains at 3.685" COL, in the Hornady brass.
My Winchester brass is interchangeable with my Hornady brass in all my loading experience with the .458 WM.
Your rifle and mileage may vary.

3.565" COL makes for about .45" seating depth.
So, 3.685" COL makes for about .33" seating depth, which is plenty as Sir Bob described.
If I really gotta have +6000 ft-lbs from the 450-grainer, I might carry one in the chamber,
with the 3.6" magazine box filled with your 500-gr TBSS at +6225 ft-lbs and 3.545"COL, seating depth 0.355".
Like carrying two rifles.
One magazine repeater rifle and one single shot rifle all in same rifle.

It is too bad that the Norma brass (I just bought some) is sticky and will waste the added volume since one can't drive it as hard. I've had some sticky Norma brass in 6.5x55 and 9.3x62, but I was hoping this would be different. Now if we could have the best of both worlds--capacity and strength...Lapua??? For now, I guess I will go back to my Hornady brass.

Hornady brass is good.

Interestingly Bob Hagel complained about Weatherby brass as being too soft (made by Norma) compared to American brass for the .300 Weatherby. The same thing appears to be true for the .340 Weatherby as he was unable to come close to my results (and Hagel certainly didn't under-load anything!) in using Remington fire formed .375 H&H once-fired. A fellow at the range asked if I could use his fired .375 H&H Remington brass from his practising for an African safari. I accepted all six boxes for my .340 and never needed to purchase cases thereafter. They were fire-formed in the chamber of my .340 using 35 grains of SR 4759 under the 200gr Nosler BT at around 2200 fps. That would have been a good deer load shooting about MOA, though I never shot deer with it.

They were used for my moose hunt in N.Ontario firing the 250gr NP at 3000 fps (avg over 10 years of 2997 fps). Some were used for ten firings or until cracks appeared in the neck from hardening.

I had one "Weatherby" factory cartridge in .340, donated by our second son who had received it as a gift from a friend who thought the .340 was the "best of the best". It was, of course, a Norma loading. I fired it over a CHRONO at the range and the 250gr Hornady bullet did make the then Weatherby claim of 2850 fps. I weighed the empty brass case and it was somewhat lighter than the Remington brass for the .375 H&H I was using. The brass was thinner, no doubt, and would have held slightly more powder. I never reloaded it.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I used to think a guy with a good 340 was the king of the elk mountain if he could tote it around and fire it accurately. Just a solid cartridge for heavier a animals. I use one of the wimpy little P64 338 Wins quite a lot but the big Weatherby sure is something.

Since we're currently discussing the shortages of certain brass and powders for particular applications, may I offer some chip shots here?

Though I no longer have or use the typical fast magnums, such as the various 300s and 7mms, I've dumped a lot of the powders that may have been suitable, except one - that being RL-22. It proved itself in most of them as No.1, including the 340, 300s and 7 magnums, as well as one 270 Win (the only one I ever owned). I still have about 75% left in a 1-lb container, and will keep it just because. Last year (spring of 2020) I tried it in my .458 WIN Ruger No.1. For three shots, 75 grains behind the 465gr semi-hardcast, ignited by WLRM primers in Hornady cases, at 3.308" COL gave these instrumental results: 1570, 1541 and 1571. It was not tested for accuracy, but the velocity results were very close to what I hoped for. It merits another try, I think.

I.m trying to find a load that gives acceptable accuracy from that bullet in the Ruger with it.s .459" barrel. That bullet shot MOA from two .45-70s, and I flattened a bear with one of them. From the CZ550, I got a load that was acceptable at around 2100 fps. But being a relatively "hard" cast bullet it will not obturate enough like a softer cast bullet, so accuracy is a challenge. They're very good bullets, and I have about 200 of 'em -so want to put some to good use if possible. Another planned try is in using RL-17. That will slow them more than RL-15 (which gave over 2000 fps but v. poor accuracy) 75 grains of RL-15 and 75 grains of RL-22 and, finally 75 grains of RL-17. There is approximately a 400 fps drop from RL-15 to the same amount of RL-22. I'm thinking that RL-17 will about split the difference at somewhere between 1700 - 1800 fps. That would be an excellent load for a 465gr semi-hard cast. It has a calculated BC of .318 to .338, the front (nose) 1/3 is a bore rider, and a 1/4" flat tip. It was devastation on that bear at about 70 yards facing me. And, I've reason to believe that it never expanded at an impact velocity of just over 1700 fps. The bullet made exit below the sternum after initial contact somewhere below the neck. It took out the heart, that was not recognised as a heart, flooding the chest with blood. The exit was about caliber in size. The bear was a 6-footer from nose to tail. I was in a tree stand so the angle of the shot was somewhat downward, and the bear was in tall grass that hadn't been cut yet, so all I could see was head and part of the neck above the grass. I aimed for where I thought the heart would be.

I know that relatively low pressure will not help the cause, but I'm hopeful that low velocity might improve accuracy... we'll see.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca