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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: Blaserman] #16155824 06/09/21
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Twist is the main reason I traded my .220 Swift #1 and built an 8 twist .22-250. (6mm shot out Mohawk now wearing a 22" Shilen barrel)

I picked up these 75 gr. bullets from Midway. They said 80 gr. but I found out they were 75 gr. TAP/SBR, 5.56x45 Hornady surplus bullets, not available to handloaders. I picked up a few more from a Fire contributor.

At .22-250 speeds, they should be pretty destructive on WT's, hogs and such. Just never tried it.

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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: Blaserman] #16156101 06/09/21
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>> still a great coyote killin rifle in my hands !


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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: Blaserman] #16161869 06/11/21
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one of the reasons winchester chose the combination they used instead of the 22 250 or a faster twist than 1/14, might be that the 22 250 wasn't around until 1937 and the bullets requiring a fast twist wouldn't show up for a long, long while. the 219 didn't show up 'til the late 30's either.

Last edited by wahoo; 06/11/21.

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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: wahoo] #16162444 06/11/21
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Originally Posted by wahoo
one of the reasons winchester chose the combination they used instead of the 22 250 or a faster twist than 1/14, might be that the 22 250 wasn't around until 1937 and the bullets requiring a fast twist wouldn't show up for a long, long while. the 219 didn't show up 'til the late 30's either.


This isn’t true. Fact is Winchester turned down the Wotkyns Swift in 34. Based on Savage brass was the killer along with supposedly not thick enough web to give a 45 grain bullet 4000+ FPS.



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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: Blaserman] #16162679 06/11/21
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Indeed. Read Landis's writings about .22 caliber varmint rifles amid the Golden Era of same in the 1930's and the history that led to what we now (often erroneously) take as fact. He was there in the thick of it and wrote quite eloquently. The .250-3000 was massaged with .22 bullets by experimenters like Niedner and Donaldson starting almost as soon as Savage introduced the .250 right before WWI, when standard .22 centerfire groove diameter was still .228". Wildcatters started necking down the 6mm Lee-Navy around the time our grandfathers (and great grandfathers) were born (ie: what we now call the .220 Swift). No new concepts under the 21st century sun, rather lots better hardware.


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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: eaglemountainman] #16162771 06/11/21
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Originally Posted by eaglemountainman
I've had a Ruger M77V 220 since the '70s that I bought for shooting chucks on the farms in the NY Catskills. I used to have a blast knocking on doors and getting permission to help a farmer put a dent in his ground hog population. I'd love to get it out again, but there doesn't seem to be the numbers of chucks like there used to be. I don't know if it's due to poisoning or different Ag practices or what, but I sure do miss those days.


Same here had my 77V since the 70's ..Always killed chucks with my BIL in WV while home on leave.. Its still a worthwhile rocket for those of us in the know !


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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: gnoahhh] #16164044 06/12/21
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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
... Wildcatters started necking down the 6mm Lee-Navy around the time our grandfathers (and great grandfathers) were born (ie: what we now call the .220 Swift).


In 1911, Charles Newton was experimenting with a 22 wildcat cartridge based on the Lee Navy case. It's likely the bullet was a .228 because Newton had just finished developing the 22 Hi-Power for Savage. Even earlier, in 1909 Dr. Franklin Mann was trying out the Lee Navy case necked down to take a .226 bullet. When he attempted to obtain 3000 fps, pressures caused primers to blow and cases to distort. Bullet weight was not reported.

Success with 22 bullets in cases of larger capacity had to wait for production of the first IMR powders, 3031 and then 4064. In the early 1930s Wotkyns had a leg up on other 22 experimenters because his military connections allowed him early access to these powders.

(Grandfathers? Great-grandfathers? You're speaking for yourself, young'un. When my grandfathers were born, smokeless powder was really new, and the trapdoor Springfield was pretty hot stuff when my great-grandfathers first showed up.)

--Bob


Last edited by BullShooter; 06/12/21.
Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: Blaserman] #16165676 06/12/21
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the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?

obviously, in 1909, powders weren't available to make the swift or the 22 250 work.

as to fast twist,the military has different objectives than hunters. does the velocity you lose balance out the increase in bc? i think there are a lot of guys, who are still a minority, who look at most any cartridge and say that the developers should have done something different. i think most of the guys who develop cartridges know what they are trying to do. .the overwhelming majority of the most popular cartridges are rather old.

good discussion though. i got my first swift because they were trading them in for 243s. i got my first for $65. i have had a 22 250 and it is a great round. it has fairly won the popularity contest.


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Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: wahoo] #16166617 06/13/21
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Originally Posted by wahoo
the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?



The trouble with what a lot of us now consider "reference sources" were erroneous from the get-go, based on hearsay/old wive's tales/intuitiveness, and as such is highly suspect. So much dreck has been written generations ago that became quoted and re-quoted over the years and finally settled into our collective consciousness as fact.

As for the Hornet, it became an overnight success because it filled an important niche in the world of .22 CF's, exactly why it remains extremely popular today. You gotta remember there were no factory .22 CF's as we know them today on the market in 1930. None. (And don't say there was the Savage .22 High Power. It used a 70 grain .228" bullet and was really intended/viewed as a deer cartridge.) It opened the eyes of a public that had no concept of light frangible bullets at high velocity and showed the way into a sport that took off like wildfire - varmint hunting - and the race for better/faster cartridges was on.

And speaking of the Savage .22 High Power, neck it down to use .224" bullets and voila, you have the .219 Zipper. Again, nothing much new under the sun even in the mid-30's.


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"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Re: What happened to 220 Swift fans [Re: gnoahhh] #16166767 06/13/21
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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by wahoo
the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?



The trouble with what a lot of us now consider "reference sources" were erroneous from the get-go, based on hearsay/old wive's tales/intuitiveness, and as such is highly suspect. So much dreck has been written generations ago that became quoted and re-quoted over the years and finally settled into our collective consciousness as fact.


While this may be true I have found that writings by Newton, Landis and Dr. Mann were entertaining and informative another writer Phillip Sharpe put a lot of it into context.
Now not only were the bullets used not .224 the other major difference is that the 220 Swift brass was not available nor is it the same as the 6mm Lee Navy brass that had been played with prior. Lee Navy brass was semi rimmed .448 bolt face. Winchester added approximately.025 to rim and also thickened the base/ extractor groove to 20 thou larger. This actually strengthened the web which allowed them to push the velocities they did.
Now Sharpe published the actual factory loads using 4064 and 3031 they must of had chronograph much more sophisticated than an Oehler as 41 grains 4064 under a 45 grain bullet purportedly had a velocity of [email protected] 53ft. Or 39 grains 3031 under a 48 grain bullet attaining 4140 FPS @53 ft. were both unattainable by me. I did match those velocities but not with those powders or at 53 ft. Yowzaa them things were hot.
Here again it goes back to the sketchy writings that attributed Winchester as turning down the Wotkyns Swift design due to case strength to handle the velocities that they wanted.
I do own and shoot both and have not found any significant difference in accuracy.



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