24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 35 of 36 1 2 33 34 35 36
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: CZ550] #16155075 06/08/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Sir Bob,

I have a similar problem with a bunch of Berry's Bullets .459"/405-grain hardcast.
They are super in the tighter-grooved .45-70 Gov't. SAAMI minimum groove for that is .456", and .457-458" is a common in-spec barrel.
I had poor accuracy with that bullet in a .459"-grooved .458 WM at faster than 1400 fps,
but I found that if I kept it under 1400 fps with AA-5744 (no filler needed),
or whatever slower smokeless powder with a filler if needed to get it below 1400 fps,
it shot close to 1 MOA for 3-shot group.
Give that a try before you give up on your .459"/465-gr hardcast.
Saint Bagwell could kill anything that walks with a 480-grain Lyman PH of relatively softcast (50:50 WW&Lead) at under 1300 fps MV.

Speaking of giving up, well, I am just going to stop dithering with the 450-gr TSX.
Sumbuddy may try something else like a packed case of droptubed H335, but not me.
I doubt I will ever do anything better than the following:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I will probably never improve on this either:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I reckon 83 grains of AA-2460 will be perfect with the 480-grain XTSX from Bubba.
And I have a bunch of North Fork 450-grainers, SP softs and FN solids, that should be perfect with 82 grains of AA-2230.

Now the question is, will I use compressed H4895 or non-compressed AA-2230 with the 400-gr XTSX from Bubba ?
But first I must do the duplexed BP and paper patch as previously laid out,
and then the single ball in sabot and the shot capsule loads with Green Dot and Blue Dot respectively.

I will be deer hunting this year with the .461"/ 579-gr FNGC "Big Blue" hardcast at 3.340" COL,
propelled by 41.5 grains of Blackhorn 209 with filler (+/- 1300 fps) and using the open "express sights"
on my .458 WM Cabela's 50th Anniversary Winchester M70 Super Grade.
She came in a replica 1961 cardboard box, from the Louisville, KY Cabela's, in 2013.
Price was reduced after she waited two years for me to happen upon her soon as they opened the store in Loo-uh-vull.
It was love at first sight.
[Linked Image]
That load is zeroed at 85 yards with the low leaf sight, windage perfect, just as she came from the factory.
I might eventually put the Near 25-MOA Picatinny on her, and a vernier sight on the heel of stock.
She will stay under 10 pounds like that, might need to get a trigger job to make the 3-pound minimum trigger pull.
That 579-grainer at 1300 fps will make a dandy gong ringer out to 600 yards, looking for 1000.

Last edited by Riflecrank; 06/09/21.

Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
BP-B2

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16158701 06/10/21
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 976
C
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 976
Thanks Sir Ron,

I really appreciate that advice -- I'm gonna give it a try. Now I have to get some 5744. A call will be made to one of my sources, I hope the response is positive. I'm looking forward to lobbing those 465s at about 1300 - 1400 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16159427 06/10/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Sir Bob,

In retrospect, my adventures with hardcast bullets in the .458 WM are quite hilarious.
Not so funny when I was experiencing them.

I started with a box of 500 of Berry's Bullets, store-bought, 405-grainers, plain base, grease-grooved, blue-lubed from the factory.
They measured .459" diameter and weighed 409 grains on average including the lube.
BHN 20, by my Lee test kit.

46 grains of AA-5744 made them go 1884 fps (instrumental, 5-yards) from a 24" barrel of .459" groove, 1:14" twist.
They were all KEYHOLED and shooting like buckshot in cylinder bore pattern.

36 grains of AA-5744 gave 1568 fps for 5-yard velocity, half made round holes, half made keyholes, pattern tightened to full choke.

26 grains of AA-5744 made them go barely supersonic but gave three-shot, sub-MOA group at 1182 fps MV, same rifle.

I settled for 30.0 grains of AA-5744, that gave a 1.5" group for 3 shots at 100 yards, MV = 1378 fps.
I especially liked that load because it had a 5-shot ES of 10 fps and st.dev. of 3 fps.

Next bullet, same rifle:

Same 30.0-grain charge of AA-5744 (no filler) worked well with a .459"/485-gr Lyman RNGC, grease-lubed. Good accuracy and uniformity.
Two different 5-shot strings chronographed with my Oehler 35P at 5 yards averaged 1335 fps and 1334 fps,
72 to 75 degrees F that day at the range.
So for 10 shots I called it 1334.5 fps average = 1335 fps.
Add 7 fps to correct to MV: 1342 fps MV

So use 30.0 grains of AA-5744 with your .459"/ 465-grainer and you will probably get >1350 fps and <1400 fps,
with hunting accuracy.
That ought to BAGWELL.
My COLs were all short, 3.080" with 409-grainer, 3.180" with 485-grainer.
F215 primer or WLRM primer, R-P brass or Hornady or WW-Super.
Use whatever you have on hand and skip the trial and error wasting of bullets.

Now I know to use .461" hardcast bullets with smokeless powders for highest velocities in the .458 Winchester Magnum with .459" groove.
But a .459" bullet at sub-1400 fps is cool beans from same rifle too.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16159475 06/10/21
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18
S
swiftshot Offline
New Member
Offline
New Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18
I use 28grs AA-5744 for my 500gr cast loads in my 458 Lott.I thought I had time to go and shoot a bunch today but next time.I shoot offhand with open sights always and at 50yds out of my Ruger.The last couple of years I shot them out of my CZ 458WM.That shooting was fun and then my barrel stopped shooting.There is nothing like shooting the big bores offhand and with reduced loads.A double rifle would be more fun but too expensive to rebarrel.I am looking forward to start shooting more often and attending the Libby Safari challenge next year.

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163240 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
swiftshot,

Why do you reckon your .458 WM CZ "stopped shooting" ?
Was it lead fouling ?
There are ways to handle that if it is a factor, with a .459" bullet in .459" groove.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
IC-A

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163246 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
The .461" hardcast is the way to go in a .458 WM, fast or slow, light or heavy:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I have no compulsion to JB Weld the Near base to the rifle.
Simple installation, each fitted-length screw has a dab of blue thread locker on it as it comes from Mr. Near.
Tightening the screws in order, 1-4, seemed to draw the recoil stop into full contact.
No light passes between the recoil stop and rear of receiver ring.
I'll let it go without glass bedding of the recoil stop.
Amazing precision by both Near and the FN Winchester M70 factory.
This 25-MOA Picatinny adds 4 oz to the rifle, and does not interfere with the "express sights."


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163257 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Low leaf:

[Linked Image]

High leaf:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The front sight needs improvement:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This would be better, from NECG:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163267 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Now what about that vernier on a Picatinny, tang, or heel ?

[Linked Image]

And a proper front sight, maybe set into a banded ramp, somehow ?

[Linked Image]
or
[Linked Image]

Somehow dovetailed into this:

[Linked Image]

Just kidding.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163270 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Scope sight ready of anything, 2.5X20mm Leupold, QRW in case quick change to Quigley sights needed:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163274 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
[Linked Image]


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
IC-B

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16163277 06/11/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
[Linked Image]

Not as young as you used to be but don't like the clutter of a scope or vernier ?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16163362 06/12/21
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18
S
swiftshot Offline
New Member
Offline
New Member
S
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18
It stopped shooting because there is barely any lands left to engrave the already oversized bullet.

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: swiftshot] #16165612 06/12/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
I do believe "shootaway" (one of his multiple handles at the anchor baby's site) has reincarnated himself here.

Originally Posted by swiftshot
It stopped shooting because there is barely any lands left to engrave the already oversized bullet.


That was said only as shootaway could say it.
He recommends a scrubbing with JB paste after every 20 rounds,
even for .22 rimfires shooting only wax-lubed, soft lead bullets at standard velocities.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16165673 06/12/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
I figured out why the HODGDON ANNUAL MANUAL lists .458 Winchester Magnum loads but skips right over the .458 Lott.

Simple, as demonstrated by the Hornady lab data.

Just load the .458 Lott with same bullet at 3.600" COL as used in the .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL and
use same powder charge and primer in both.

The tighter throat and shorter free-travel in the .458 Lott will give it 50 fps more velocity at 2,500 PSI higher velocity.
Close enough.
Just be careful not to exceed a maximum SAAMI .458 WinMag load (60,000 PSI) in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
If you do, you will likely be exceeding the SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott (62,500 PSI).
Reduce powder charge by 10% and work up for the .458 Lott.
Thus, there is no need for .458 Lott data.
The .416 Remington Magnum has a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 PSI if the low-pressure SAAMI .458 WinMag is not exciting enough.
If you cannot kill it with a .458/ 500-grainer at 2200 fps and 60,000 psi or less,
maybe shootaway has been cleaning your barrel.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16166076 06/12/21
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 60
C
CTF Offline
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 60
I liked his motorcycle helmet shooting 😁😉

Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: CTF] #16168931 06/13/21
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 80
BadboyMelvin Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 80

Hey guys,

Had some fun (sarcasm alert!) with my .458 today.

I thought today would be a good day to sight in my reloads for my next Sambar hunt so I was off early to do the deed!

My reloads consist of:

Winchester case
73gns Benchmark 2 (Benchmark) powder
Woodleigh 550gn soft-point
CCI mag primer
Velocity = 2080fps
OAL = 3.340"

These reloads are loaded to suit the mag of my Zastava M70 and these were chronographed from my 24" barrel.

I calculated the recoil of these loads and in my 9lb rifle they worked out to be a touch over 80ft/lbs.
I can honestly say that shooting these off the bench was... invigorating!

Actually if I'm being truely honest these loads, shot through my rifle - off the bench, exceeded my recoil tolerance.
Luckily it only took 8 shots to sight in but after that I was done!
Shooting over the chronograph while standing wasn't too bad (still heavy though) but off the bench was tough work.

I reckon getting a fraction under 2100fps with a 550gn projectile in a .458 loaded to a length of 3.340" is good going and I doubt that a Lott would get much more.
In fact on another forum, I had someone who shoots a Lott question my load - as he was getting about the same velocity for his rifle.

I sight this load in so it's zero'd at 150m, so it looks like this,

50m - +2"
100 - +2.75"
150m - 0.0"
200m - -5.5"
250 - -15.5"

This is a pretty good trajectory out to 200m for such a heavy projectile and I cant wait to try it on game - especially a nice big Sambar!
But I would feel supreme confidence with this load against nearly any game species that could be hunted - and surely by swapping the soft-point for a solid, elephant could be humanly taken.

A load like this, properly sighted in just inspires confidence while hunting, so keep your eyes peeled for a hunting report soon!

Long live the .458!

Russ

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16169062 06/13/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
BadboyMelvin, beautiful rifle and illustration of Lottite thinking !
Buy a donkey !
Henceforth you shall be known as Sir Russ, Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Crusade for Truth,
unless you renounce the title.

Sir Russ said:

"I had someone who shoots a Lott question my load - as he was getting about the same velocity for his rifle."

And he was probably doing it with either higher pressure or greater recoil or both than you were,
if his barrel length and rifle weight were same as yours !

Corrected to MV you are indeed close to 2100 fps, with your 550-gr RNSN bullet BC of 0.340 and a chronograph distance of reasonable yardage.
SD = .375 !

.458 Winchester Magnum:
Woodleigh manual top-velocity load for 550-gr RNSN is same as your load, 2110 fps with 73.0 grains of ADI Bench Mark 2 aka Hodgdon's Extreme powder Benchmark.

.458 Lott:
Woodleigh manual top-velocity load for 550-gr RNSN uses 81.0 grains of RL-15 for 2115 fps.
OUCH ! 5 fps extra for a whole Lott more recoil with the heavier, slower powder charge.

Lottites are easily confused.
They think because the brass is 0.3" longer and COL is 0.26" longer with the Lott, it has got to be running circles around the .458 WinMag.
They totally discount throat effects, just plumb ignorant of them.

A plus: Benchmark is a much better powder than RL-15 when it comes to temperature stability and Lott-to-Lott variability.

If Woodleigh is loading to SAAMI standards, with a large American market, they are limiting their loads to:
.458 WinMag: 3.340" and 60,000 PSI
.458 Lott: 3.600" and 62,500 PSI
That would be all the more charming for the .458 Winchester Magnum magnificence.

I suppose they could be loading to CIP standards, however:
.458 WinMag: 3.340" and 4300 bar
.458 Lott: 3.600" and 4300 bar
4300 bar is about 62,350 PSI for both.
Still mighty charming for the Crusade.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16169137 06/13/21
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 80
BadboyMelvin Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 80

Thank you for the knight ship! I am indeed honoured and I proudly except!

Sir Russ


You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: MikeMcGuire] #16169172 06/13/21
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Riflecrank Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 645
Sir Russ it is then.


Ron

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
Re: The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once [Re: Riflecrank] #16169447 06/14/21
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 976
C
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 976
Sir Russ;

Excellent stuff!

Thank you...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison
Page 35 of 36 1 2 33 34 35 36

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

RR1b
Who's Online Now
610 registered members (10gaugemag, 01Foreman400, 160user, 1Akshooter, 1234, 1moredeer, 62 invisible), 2,463 guests, and 1,114 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3










Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2020 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 7.3.28 Page Time: 0.064s Queries: 15 (0.007s) Memory: 0.8989 MB (Peak: 1.0931 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2021-06-17 22:43:03 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS