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A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read #16155516 06/09/21
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shootinurse Offline OP
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"While many hunters think it's crazy to hunt dangerous game with a push-feed rifle, the grizzly died and I did not."
It is amazing how a few well chosen words get make a point, in a way that anyone can understand.



Gun control...schemed by tyrants and supported by fools.
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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16155662 06/09/21
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Point well made!

Without telling my age, in all of my 70+ years of hunting and camping, the subject of CRF or not has never come up! Bin waitin so I can brag on my 1953 Model 70.

And my only true DG was shot with my 1886 and1895 leverguns.


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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16156500 06/09/21
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jwall Offline
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I remember Wooters writing saying,

“Them as can writes,
Them as can’t edits” grin



Quoted to the best of my memory.

Jerry


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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: jwall] #16157055 06/09/21
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Originally Posted by jwall
I remember Wooters writing saying,

“Them as can writes,
Them as can’t edits” grin



Quoted to the best of my memory.

Jerry


As I recall, you got that right.

I have known some editors who write very well, but have known more who couldn't even edit their own copy very well.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16157201 06/09/21
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....

Last edited by szihn; 06/09/21.
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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: szihn] #16157444 06/09/21
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jwall Offline
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grin grin , Steve


Jerry


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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: jwall] #16157604 06/09/21
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Eschew Obfuscation & Espouse Elucidation

ya!

GWB


A Kill Artist. When I draw, I draw blood.
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: geedubya] #16157818 06/09/21
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338Rules Offline
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Originally Posted by geedubya


Eschew Obfuscation & Espouse Elucidation

ya!

GWB


Empromiagation of Platitudinous Ponderosities

Was Mr. Grizz dispatched by the Second, or Subsequent Rounds Discounting the Initial Miss ?

This is where CRF Excells. Any Common Push Feed Aaction can bring the Initial round from Magazine to Battery.
Faithfully, and Without Fail Delivery in the Face of Mortal Odds of the Subsequent Cartridge is the True Definition of Panache

Last edited by 338Rules; 06/09/21. Reason: Tippy Tipery
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16160039 06/10/21
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Complaining about push feed vs. CRF is just baloney. If CRF were more reliable they'd use it for new military rifle designs. They haven't since 1898.

You see all the know-nothings say that PF cannot feed upside down (not true), that PF extractors break (has nothing to do with the PF design), that PF bolt handles break off (same thing), and similar ridiculous things.

I've killed four species of DG in Africa with a push feed action, Several required fast feeding. All with a PF action. The only failure-to-feed was in Wyoming with a Model 98 action.


Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: IndyCA35] #16160097 06/10/21
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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Complaining about push feed vs. CRF is just baloney. If CRF were more reliable they'd use it for new military rifle designs. They haven't since 1898.

You see all the know-nothings say that PF cannot feed upside down (not true), that PF extractors break (has nothing to do with the PF design), that PF bolt handles break off (same thing), and similar ridiculous things.

I've killed four species of DG in Africa with a push feed action, Several required fast feeding. All with a PF action. The only failure-to-feed was in Wyoming with a Model 98 action.




How about the 1903 Springfield, 1917 Enfield and 303 SMLE ?
They all were CRF, for very good reasons ! The problem was not mechanical, but human foibles


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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: 338Rules] #16160114 06/10/21
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338Rules,

If you'd read the original story, you'd know the first shot (at about 60-65 yards) went into the "fold" at the rear of the left shoulder of the 7-1/2 foot grizzly as it stood angling slightly away. This was after a mile-long stalk that obviously went rather well.

The boar had just emerged from the tall grass next to a shallow pond, and at the shot whirled and started running back along the line it had been walking when it emerged from the grass. They apparently do this often after being fatally shot, and it brought the bear closer to me and my guide. We both shot at the same moment--just as the bear whirled to bite at the entrance hole, something they also often do--and as a result we both missed. I shot a third time as the bear started running angling away, and it disappeared in the long grass.

The first shot (a 250-grain 9.3mm Nosler AccuBond at 2650 fps) landed right where I aimed, and exited alongside the bone of the right shoulder, leaving a 1" exit hole. It put a big hole through both lungs just above the heart, so the bear was dying--but not quite dead. My third shot entered the middle of the ribcage on the right side, and traversed the chest cavity before the bullet ended up under the hide on the left side of the neck, a few inches in front of the left shoulder. If I recall correctly, it retained around 80% of its weight.

The entire 3-round sequence probably took less than 5 seconds. I can say this because a couple years before I'd done essentially the same thing, shooting offhand on a target range, at three targets from under 50 to around 100 yards away--with another bolt-action rifle. I hit all three targets, and was timed at a little over 4 seconds from the first shot to the last. This was the fastest time recorded in that event that day, and was witnessed by several people.

I learned to run a bolt-action very quickly a long time ago, with the "slap" method described by John Wootters in an article published in the 1970s. At the time my only two big game rifles were both 700s, and the method worked great--because it absolutely prevents "short-stroking," the supposed reason push-feed actions can fail at critical moments.

I had already used the same rifle (though with another barrel) on over a dozen big game animals. It was originally a factory stainless/synthetic 700 in 7mm SAUM, and after using it considerably (sometimes quite rapidly, as described) the bolt handle hadn't fallen off. (In fact I've never had a bolt handle fall off a 700, though I knew it occasionally happens--usually early on.) After Charlie Sisk rebarreled it to the 9.3 Barsness-Sisk wildcat we developed together around 2005, it worked just as well, if anything feeding even slicker.

If you want confirmation of the above description of the events, my guide on that 2009 hunt (a great guy named Bryce Johnson) still works for the same outfitter, Stoney River Lodge. Oh, and by the way, his rifle on that hunt was a Browning A-Bolt stainless/synthetic in .338 Winchester Magnum. He may be still using it a dozen years later, but dunno. He'd been using it for several years when I hunted with him, and was pleased with its performance.




“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: 458Win] #16160163 06/10/21
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Originally Posted by 458Win
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Complaining about push feed vs. CRF is just baloney. If CRF were more reliable they'd use it for new military rifle designs. They haven't since 1898.

You see all the know-nothings say that PF cannot feed upside down (not true), that PF extractors break (has nothing to do with the PF design), that PF bolt handles break off (same thing), and similar ridiculous things.

I've killed four species of DG in Africa with a push feed action, Several required fast feeding. All with a PF action. The only failure-to-feed was in Wyoming with a Model 98 action.




How about the 1903 Springfield, 1917 Enfield and 303 SMLE ?
They all were CRF, for very good reasons ! The problem was not mechanical, but human foibles


The 1903 Springfiield was just a copy or the Mauser '98, so close that the US government paid the Germans a royalty after either a lawsuit or the threat of one.
The payments stopped during WWI.

I think (not sure) that the 1917 Enfield was a copy of the 303 SMLE. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe the SMLE was designed before 1898.

The first "all new" 20th Century US design was the M1 Garand (push feed as was the M14 and the M16/AR150.

What were the human foibles reasons for the early CRF actions?


Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: IndyCA35] #16160540 06/10/21
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Indy,

The lawsuit which resulted in the U.S. paying Mauser royalties mostly involved the Mauser top insertion clip, not the action itself. Though there were certainly some similarities between the actions, there were enough differences to avoid that issue.

The 1917 Enfield was considerably different from the Lee-Enfield action, with more resemblance to a cock-on-closing pre-98 Mauser action.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16160593 06/10/21
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The problem I have experienced with my Model 700 PF is not in the push feeding but the extraction. I have replaced 2 extractors. One on a 222 and one on a 22-250. When the 22-250 broke another one, they both went in for Sako style.

On the other side, I have a 700 in 270 that has had thousands of rounds through it, currently on it's second barrel. Never had to replace that extractor.


Arcus Venator
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: Mule Deer] #16160614 06/10/21
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MD - glad you’re still around to relate the details of this adventure.
Early 90s I had one of the A-bolt Stainless Stalkers in 338Win which I regret trading off. It was pleasantly accurate, and recoil was quite manageable. Fairly wide butt and recoil pad.

Your 700 7mmSaum was quite a workhorse for you, factory chambering then the 9.3 Barsness Sisk on the 350 case, and then the 6.5 PRC . Was it throated shorter than SAAMI, or just worked out most accurate loaded that way ?

Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: shootinurse] #16160631 06/10/21
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I used to hunt a fairly small area with my Dad. When he shot, I could pretty well tell by sound that it was him and where he was. He used ny Grandfather's circa 52' model 70.. One season I hear what sounded like an auto loader dump 5 rounds. Wasn't sure it was him. I headed that way anyway. It was him, and we had work to do.

A few years later. By myself in the same woods. I did the same thing he had done. Only it was 4 rpunds. What I always carried in my Remington 700..
Afterwards. I had work to do.

Niether one of us ever practiced speed. We just got excited. In both cases though. At least for us. Slow and precise would have maybe been better or just as good. But both rifles performed flawlessly.

Although I will say a Rem 700 trigger can freeze up if it gets wet and cold. Need to watch em' in bad weather.

Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: Mule Deer] #16160713 06/10/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Indy,

The lawsuit which resulted in the U.S. paying Mauser royalties mostly involved the Mauser top insertion clip, not the action itself. Though there were certainly some similarities between the actions, there were enough differences to avoid that issue.

The 1917 Enfield was considerably different from the Lee-Enfield action, with more resemblance to a cock-on-closing pre-98 Mauser action.



Interestingly, both arose from experience fighting enemies armed with pre-98 Mausers, the US looking hard at the 1893 Mauser and the British at the 1895, after coming up against them. Both also embodied a few local ideas/prejudices, such as the US insistence on a magazine cutoff and the British wanting a big action to suit a high-velocity 7mm, so as to really reach out there, after having troubles reaching out with the early Lee Enfields in South Africa (mostly due to issues with sights, but that is another story).

It sounds like your hunt went well. It is a good lesson in the value of practicing quick follow-up shots. Everyone hopes not to need them, but sometimes that ability to throw them in quickly and accurately makes a real difference.

Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: Mule Deer] #16160778 06/11/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer


I learned to run a bolt-action very quickly a long time ago, with the "slap" method described by John Wootters in an article published in the 1970s. At the time my only two big game rifles were both 700s, and the method worked great--because it absolutely prevents "short-stroking," the supposed reason push-feed actions can fail at critical moments.



I was still pretty oblivious to hunting and shooting in the 70's.

Can you provide a link or briefly describe the slap method? I think I know what you're describing, but I'd like to be sure. I've got #1 grand daughter coming up and I want to make sure I've got it right.


Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries Lighthearted Confessions of a Cervid Serial Killer
Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: Mule Deer] #16160826 06/11/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer


The lawsuit which resulted in the U.S. paying Mauser royalties mostly involved the Mauser top insertion clip, not the action itself. Though there were certainly some similarities between the actions, there were enough differences to avoid that issue.

The 1917 Enfield was considerably different from the Lee-Enfield action, with more resemblance to a cock-on-closing pre-98 Mauser action.


Mule Deer


With your permission I would like to 'steal' that for my sig line.
W/o it I won't.


Jerry


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Re: A way with words; why some write, and the rest of us read [Re: 338Rules] #16161115 06/11/21
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Originally Posted by 338Rules
Your 700 7mmSaum was quite a workhorse for you, factory chambering then the 9.3 Barsness Sisk on the 350 case, and then the 6.5 PRC . Was it throated shorter than SAAMI, or just worked out most accurate loaded that way ?


The 6.5 PRC chamber is SAAMI standard--but the action's magazine is too short to allow bullets to be seated out to the SAAMI max of 2.950" overall length. Instead of installing a longer magazine, I decided to test how the rifle would shoot with bullets seated to fit in the magazine--and it turned out the two I wanted to use most (the 127 Barnes LRX and 129 Nosler AccuBond Long Range) were noticeably more accurate when seated deeper.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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