24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,822
D
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
D
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 36,822
Twist is the main reason I traded my .220 Swift #1 and built an 8 twist .22-250. (6mm shot out Mohawk now wearing a 22" Shilen barrel)

I picked up these 75 gr. bullets from Midway. They said 80 gr. but I found out they were 75 gr. TAP/SBR, 5.56x45 Hornady surplus bullets, not available to handloaders. I picked up a few more from a Fire contributor.

At .22-250 speeds, they should be pretty destructive on WT's, hogs and such. Just never tried it.

DF

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

BP-B2

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,183
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,183
>> still a great coyote killin rifle in my hands !


LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 563
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 563
one of the reasons winchester chose the combination they used instead of the 22 250 or a faster twist than 1/14, might be that the 22 250 wasn't around until 1937 and the bullets requiring a fast twist wouldn't show up for a long, long while. the 219 didn't show up 'til the late 30's either.

Last edited by wahoo; 06/11/21.

If you're not having fun; you're not doing it right!
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by wahoo
one of the reasons winchester chose the combination they used instead of the 22 250 or a faster twist than 1/14, might be that the 22 250 wasn't around until 1937 and the bullets requiring a fast twist wouldn't show up for a long, long while. the 219 didn't show up 'til the late 30's either.


This isn’t true. Fact is Winchester turned down the Wotkyns Swift in 34. Based on Savage brass was the killer along with supposedly not thick enough web to give a 45 grain bullet 4000+ FPS.



Swifty
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
G
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
Indeed. Read Landis's writings about .22 caliber varmint rifles amid the Golden Era of same in the 1930's and the history that led to what we now (often erroneously) take as fact. He was there in the thick of it and wrote quite eloquently. The .250-3000 was massaged with .22 bullets by experimenters like Niedner and Donaldson starting almost as soon as Savage introduced the .250 right before WWI, when standard .22 centerfire groove diameter was still .228". Wildcatters started necking down the 6mm Lee-Navy around the time our grandfathers (and great grandfathers) were born (ie: what we now call the .220 Swift). No new concepts under the 21st century sun, rather lots better hardware.


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
IC B2

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896
Originally Posted by eaglemountainman
I've had a Ruger M77V 220 since the '70s that I bought for shooting chucks on the farms in the NY Catskills. I used to have a blast knocking on doors and getting permission to help a farmer put a dent in his ground hog population. I'd love to get it out again, but there doesn't seem to be the numbers of chucks like there used to be. I don't know if it's due to poisoning or different Ag practices or what, but I sure do miss those days.


Same here had my 77V since the 70's ..Always killed chucks with my BIL in WV while home on leave.. Its still a worthwhile rocket for those of us in the know !


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
... Wildcatters started necking down the 6mm Lee-Navy around the time our grandfathers (and great grandfathers) were born (ie: what we now call the .220 Swift).


In 1911, Charles Newton was experimenting with a 22 wildcat cartridge based on the Lee Navy case. It's likely the bullet was a .228 because Newton had just finished developing the 22 Hi-Power for Savage. Even earlier, in 1909 Dr. Franklin Mann was trying out the Lee Navy case necked down to take a .226 bullet. When he attempted to obtain 3000 fps, pressures caused primers to blow and cases to distort. Bullet weight was not reported.

Success with 22 bullets in cases of larger capacity had to wait for production of the first IMR powders, 3031 and then 4064. In the early 1930s Wotkyns had a leg up on other 22 experimenters because his military connections allowed him early access to these powders.

(Grandfathers? Great-grandfathers? You're speaking for yourself, young'un. When my grandfathers were born, smokeless powder was really new, and the trapdoor Springfield was pretty hot stuff when my great-grandfathers first showed up.)

--Bob


Last edited by BullShooter; 06/12/21.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 563
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 563
the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?

obviously, in 1909, powders weren't available to make the swift or the 22 250 work.

as to fast twist,the military has different objectives than hunters. does the velocity you lose balance out the increase in bc? i think there are a lot of guys, who are still a minority, who look at most any cartridge and say that the developers should have done something different. i think most of the guys who develop cartridges know what they are trying to do. .the overwhelming majority of the most popular cartridges are rather old.

good discussion though. i got my first swift because they were trading them in for 243s. i got my first for $65. i have had a 22 250 and it is a great round. it has fairly won the popularity contest.


If you're not having fun; you're not doing it right!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
G
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
Originally Posted by wahoo
the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?



The trouble with what a lot of us now consider "reference sources" were erroneous from the get-go, based on hearsay/old wive's tales/intuitiveness, and as such is highly suspect. So much dreck has been written generations ago that became quoted and re-quoted over the years and finally settled into our collective consciousness as fact.

As for the Hornet, it became an overnight success because it filled an important niche in the world of .22 CF's, exactly why it remains extremely popular today. You gotta remember there were no factory .22 CF's as we know them today on the market in 1930. None. (And don't say there was the Savage .22 High Power. It used a 70 grain .228" bullet and was really intended/viewed as a deer cartridge.) It opened the eyes of a public that had no concept of light frangible bullets at high velocity and showed the way into a sport that took off like wildfire - varmint hunting - and the race for better/faster cartridges was on.

And speaking of the Savage .22 High Power, neck it down to use .224" bullets and voila, you have the .219 Zipper. Again, nothing much new under the sun even in the mid-30's.


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by wahoo
the reference sources i have support my post. i am not familiar with mr landis work. harvey donaldson was a giant in this area, and his best effort, the 219 wasp didn't come out until the late 30s. if efforts to develop the 22 250 started in 1909, why did the hornet attract attention when it came out in 1930?



The trouble with what a lot of us now consider "reference sources" were erroneous from the get-go, based on hearsay/old wive's tales/intuitiveness, and as such is highly suspect. So much dreck has been written generations ago that became quoted and re-quoted over the years and finally settled into our collective consciousness as fact.


While this may be true I have found that writings by Newton, Landis and Dr. Mann were entertaining and informative another writer Phillip Sharpe put a lot of it into context.
Now not only were the bullets used not .224 the other major difference is that the 220 Swift brass was not available nor is it the same as the 6mm Lee Navy brass that had been played with prior. Lee Navy brass was semi rimmed .448 bolt face. Winchester added approximately.025 to rim and also thickened the base/ extractor groove to 20 thou larger. This actually strengthened the web which allowed them to push the velocities they did.
Now Sharpe published the actual factory loads using 4064 and 3031 they must of had chronograph much more sophisticated than an Oehler as 41 grains 4064 under a 45 grain bullet purportedly had a velocity of 4250@ 53ft. Or 39 grains 3031 under a 48 grain bullet attaining 4140 FPS @53 ft. were both unattainable by me. I did match those velocities but not with those powders or at 53 ft. Yowzaa them things were hot.
Here again it goes back to the sketchy writings that attributed Winchester as turning down the Wotkyns Swift design due to case strength to handle the velocities that they wanted.
I do own and shoot both and have not found any significant difference in accuracy.



Swifty
IC B3

Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 296
J
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
J
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 296
Is anyone here shooting Calhoun 52 gr Double HP out of their 220 Swift?

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by Jethro15
Is anyone here shooting Calhoun 52 gr Double HP out of their 220 Swift?


Why would you limit the Swift with a bullet that has max velocity of 3600 FPS? Both a 22.250 and Swift will push a 52 2-300 FPS over that easily. If I was to use that it would be in a 223 where max velocity w/52’s is about 3500 at best.



Swifty
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 22,869
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 22,869
Blaserman: I can't believe I did it but last Wednesday I came across a mint condition Remington 40-X Rangemaster in caliber 220 Swift at a distant gunshop!
It "called to me" and I had to bring it home.
Like I needed another 220 Swift.
Anyway it came from an estate to the gunshop on consignment and at the price it was offered I had to have it.
As always when "gun-shopping" I had my bore inspection tool along to verify the barrel condition and it appeared in excellent shape with virtually no wear at the leades to the rifling.
The trigger was excellent at a repeating 20 ounces and the single shot action just enhanced my eagerness to add this one to my arsenal/collection.
I will be mounting a Leupold 6.5x20 scope on it today and may be shooting it later this week (even though it is smokey as heck at my Rifle range).
I will be gathering brass to dedicate to this Rifle and that may be a problem - til then I will "rob" some brass from another of my Swift's for load development.
Long live the 220 Swift!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Speaking of the smoke, it is so thick hereabouts (SW Montana) that I have been enduring recurring bouts of nausea, headaches, eyestrain (along with red and itchy eyes) and malaise.
I hope none of you other CampFirers are as troubled as am I by this smoke from the now 80 forest fires in the west!
The VarmintWife seems immune to the smoke and is bouncing around the house like a teeny-bopper.
Dang her hide.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,681
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,681
Originally Posted by trplem
All the 220 fans I knew were guys in their fifties back in Reagan's first term. They're not really fans of anything at all anymore...


That's so true and why I would never want one. I use a 225 Winchester instead. Keeping up with the times, you know? laugh

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

1967 magazine ad

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 17,807
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 17,807
I may have new brass, if so proly Winchester.
In case anybody looking.
Will go dig tomorrow to verify.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Cool old ad, 1967. 225 Win was only 3 years old and would be dead and epitaph of another dud 4 years later.



Swifty
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,640
B
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
B
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,640
Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Originally Posted by trplem
All the 220 fans I knew were guys in their fifties back in Reagan's first term. They're not really fans of anything at all anymore...


That's so true and why I would never want one. I use a 225 Winchester instead. Keeping up with the times, you know? laugh

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

1967 magazine ad

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


The 225 Winchester was a dog turd.........it's only saving grace was the 6.5JDJ !!!!!!!!
probably more popular than the parent round.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,681
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,681
Not at all. JD recognized the power of the 225 Win case and the energy aura it emitted. It was the beginning of much innovation and power. It still exists today.

The 220 Swift didn't generate the same aura. Sorry. 😐


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,183
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 8,183
argue all you want about other 22 cartridges but the old 220 Swift people still try and i say try to compare there favorite 22 center fire cartridge with the king of the 22`s = 220 Swift which is still killin varmints ! yes i may own plenty other different 22 centerfire cartridges but for callin coyotes or run`n hounds on coyotes hand me my 220 Swift with some 60 gr. Nosler Partitions, because good coyote hides add up too money no matter what your age is .


LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Campfire Outfitter
Online Content
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,530
Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
Not at all. JD recognized the power of the 225 Win case and the energy aura it emitted. It was the beginning of much innovation and power. It still exists today.

The 220 Swift didn't generate the same aura. Sorry. 😐


Now Steve, J.D didn’t keep the 225 alive he just took a plain ass dud that Winchester built and turned the brass into something useful. Since the 225 was based on a 219 zipper case (modified 30-30 case) that had the rim turned down from .504 to a semi rimmed .473 to fit a standard bolt face, which coincidentally works extremely well in single shot falling block or break open actions (Lordy Lordy can we say Thompson Contenders) and used that turd to his benefit.

It wasn’t that the round did anything special which it didn’t, it couldn’t beat the Swift and could barely keep up with the 22.250 which is why it died in 7 years. The Swift is still talked about, used as a benchmark to this day whereas the 225 Winchester is nothing more than a foot note just like the 220 Rocket and a number of others that also died a quick death and disappeared into history as failures.



Swifty
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
661 members (257Bob, 06hunter59, 007FJ, 01Foreman400, 222ND, 160user, 72 invisible), 2,900 guests, and 1,394 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,656
Posts18,399,278
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.151s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9103 MB (Peak: 1.0862 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 19:19:54 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS