Do 7.62 AR10s really have a place anymore? A 6.5 is superior for external ballistics, even out of 14.5/16 barrels based on numbers I ran, and will have better hit probability in wind. Is there any reason other than perhaps barrel life to have one of these anymore?
When I was shopping for an AR10 a few years back, primarily for hog and deer hunting, I was looking at both chamberings. I wound up picking the .308 for my needs. Ammo was plentiful for both chamberings, but the .30cal offerings are a bit better on blood trails. I wasn't looking at shots past 300-350yds.
Run the ballistics on a 308 with a 155 Scenar at 2850 FPS. The drop is manageable out to 600 yards by an experienced shooter, well beyond by a very experienced shooter.
There are no flies on a 308 in an AR10.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
Do 7.62 AR10s really have a place anymore? A 6.5 is superior for external ballistics, even out of 14.5/16 barrels based on numbers I ran, and will have better hit probability in wind. Is there any reason other than perhaps barrel life to have one of these anymore?
A good use for them is burning up ball ammo if you have a stockpile. If I were in the market for just 1 ar10, it would be the cm.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Rbutcher you.must be a 30 something. You got to many ideological numbers crowding you. The 7.62 or 308 has 40 years+ on the creed. 40 years of GI surplus ammo and brass which neither are easy to find for the Creed right now. That is an advantage all the creeds ballistics can't /won' t surpass not an unimportant matter these days. Mb
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
almost everyone that i know that own an AR10 308 use them for hogs
Yep.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
No doubt the 308 is effective against game, and it totally makes sense if one has stockpiled thousands of 308 ammo.... I'm just trying to figure out what the 308 gets me that a 6.5 in the same barrel length doesn't have. Other than ammo and barrel life.
If ammo supply/cost is same/same, the 6.5CM buys you reduced recoil and sleeker bullets for longer range connections, while the .308 buys you more whoomp on flesh out to moderate ranges and slightly longer barrel life, at the cost of more recoil. Depends on what you are looking for. For more of a playtoy that is also going to the hunting field, I'd likely go Creedmoor if available.
No doubt the 308 is effective against game, and it totally makes sense if one has stockpiled thousands of 308 ammo.... I'm just trying to figure out what the 308 gets me that a 6.5 in the same barrel length doesn't have. Other than ammo and barrel life.
I'm happy you like the 6.5CM.
Ain't freedom to choose great?
I may have one at some point. But in the meantime, I'll just be happy with the penetration and energy out of my .308, and keep on killing stuff...
No doubt the 308 is effective against game, and it totally makes sense if one has stockpiled thousands of 308 ammo.... I'm just trying to figure out what the 308 gets me that a 6.5 in the same barrel length doesn't have. Other than ammo and barrel life.
I'm happy you like the 6.5CM.
Ain't freedom to choose great?
I may have one at some point. But in the meantime, I'll just be happy with the penetration and energy out of my .308, and keep on killing stuff...
Theres no hog in this world thats going to see a difference in the lethality of the 2 cartridges mentioned here, but in most cases the shooter will notice better accuracy and precision with the creedmoor. The milder recoil also allows for quicker follow up shots. Theres no contest as far as I'm concerned, but theres also nothing wrong with loving the 308
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
No doubt the 308 is effective against game, and it totally makes sense if one has stockpiled thousands of 308 ammo.... I'm just trying to figure out what the 308 gets me that a 6.5 in the same barrel length doesn't have. Other than ammo and barrel life.
Ammo is kind of a big deal. To me anyways.
If the Creed was as deeply entrenched in the military market, LE market, and hunting market, with equal or better ammo production, supply, and cost, then I would give the Creed the nod. But it isn't.
The other thing with me, I'm all tooled up for 308 Win, have been for many years. While the Creed has undeniable long range advantages, it's not enough of a difference to make me want to re-tool, re equip for it. My 308 LR load is a 208 Amax at 2600 fps. It shoots good well past 1000 yards.
I'll happily use the 308 for the forseeable future...….since my age starts with a 6, who knows how much longer that might be......grin
Just for $hitz-n-gigglz,
1800 yard target rockpile, Ruger 223 rifle in there for scale.
Shooting the 215gr Berger to 1800 yards....the 208 Amax does the same thing.
No doubt the 308 is effective against game, and it totally makes sense if one has stockpiled thousands of 308 ammo.... I'm just trying to figure out what the 308 gets me that a 6.5 in the same barrel length doesn't have. Other than ammo and barrel life.
Ammo is kind of a big deal. To me anyways.
If the Creed was as deeply entrenched in the military market, LE market, and hunting market, with equal or better ammo production, supply, and cost, then I would give the Creed the nod. But it isn't.
The other thing with me, I'm all tooled up for 308 Win, have been for many years. While the Creed has undeniable long range advantages, it's not enough of a difference to make me want to re-tool, re equip for it. My 308 LR load is a 208 Amax at 2600 fps. It shoots good well past 1000 yards.
I'll happily use the 308 for the forseeable future...….since my age starts with a 6, who knows how much longer that might be......grin
Just for $hitz-n-gigglz,
1800 yard target rockpile, Ruger 223 rifle in there for scale.
Shooting the 215gr Berger to 1800 yards....the 208 Amax des the same thing.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of speeds are you sending the 215 berger out of a 308? If I misread and you're shooting it out of something with more case capacity, disregard.
Shane, that looks an awful lot like a bolt action. I believe the op was asking about the ar10/ar308 platform. Are you running one of those, or just the bolt gun? In my previous posts, I was comparing my experience tit for tat, but pertaining to the ops question on the ar platform.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Shane, that looks an awful lot like a bolt action. I believe the op was asking about the ar10/ar308 platform. Are you running one of those, or just the bolt gun? In my previous posts, I was comparing my experience tit for tat, but pertaining to the ops question on the ar platform.
You're right.
When precision shooting came into the conversation, I kind of de-railed.
yeah, that's a good load. My 14.5 308 is 2.5 mil at 400m, but that was with a lighter bullet going faster.
The whole genesis of my thought process here is my 14.5 308 is outperformed by a 6.5 at every range from an external ballistics perspective, and the 308 isn't reaching some magical level of terminal bullet performance at close range that the 6.5 is not. Dead is dead, and bullets only need above certain velocities to work. Something shot at the range where 308 brings more energy than 6.5 creedmoor is not going to know the difference between the two, and the 6.5 starts to pull away the further you get.
I know that I am not a wind-reading master, (yet) and I have been investigating higher BC bullets driven fast as a way to stack the odds in my favor. Why leave mechanical advantage on the table? If given a choice between two loads that both delivered a bullet at a velocity above its performance threshold, then the one that was more efficient should be the choice. I grant that caliber selection should be a holistic process, and what works for someone's situation may not work for someone else. I also grant that I may be too caught up in the theory on this.
I'm sure there is a niche military use for shorter 308s, but for us this may all be academic. It's certainly more important to get out there and get hunting instead of sitting at home. I know for the ranges I tend to take game, this is all a meaningless comparison at the end of the day. But greater performance at range, with a larger margin for error on wind calls, for less recoil all seems like a pretty nice advantage.
yeah, that's a good load. My 14.5 308 is 2.5 mil at 400m, but that was with a lighter bullet going faster.
The whole genesis of my thought process here is my 14.5 308 is outperformed by a 6.5 at every range from an external ballistics perspective, and the 308 isn't reaching some magical level of terminal bullet performance at close range that the 6.5 is not. Dead is dead, and bullets only need above certain velocities to work. Something shot at the range where 308 brings more energy than 6.5 creedmoor is not going to know the difference between the two, and the 6.5 starts to pull away the further you get.
I know that I am not a wind-reading master, (yet) and I have been investigating higher BC bullets driven fast as a way to stack the odds in my favor. Why leave mechanical advantage on the table? If given a choice between two loads that both delivered a bullet at a velocity above its performance threshold, then the one that was more efficient should be the choice. I grant that caliber selection should be a holistic process, and what works for someone's situation may not work for someone else. I also grant that I may be too caught up in the theory on this.
I'm sure there is a niche military use for shorter 308s, but for us this may all be academic. It's certainly more important to get out there and get hunting instead of sitting at home. I know for the ranges I tend to take game, this is all a meaningless comparison at the end of the day. But greater performance at range, with a larger margin for error on wind calls, for less recoil all seems like a pretty nice advantage.
Well said, so why are you dragging your feet?
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Ha ha.. Good one buddy. My airbore ranger buddy says the same thing. Steve, is that you? He has a bad azzed FAL and M1a that damn near shoots as good as his AR10, but he admits the AR platform produces better accuracy. In a recent AR shoot, it wasn't much of a match against some a holes 6.5 cm AR10 performance center.. It was almost as good as last year: some yay hoos from some bigger clubs in the Portland/Vancouver area came and wanted to impress us with some "speed shoots". I guess they didn't like our slow course of fire and proposed we shoot one of their shoots. To them 10 shots in 60 seconds was fast, or what they called a "speed shoot". Being the A hole that I am, I said that is not a "speed shoot". If you guys want a speed shoot, lets do 10 shots in 10 seconds. You are only scored for the bullets that hit the target in the time allotted. They were frazzled. Most were only able to get 7-8 shots on target and boy let me tell you what a joke for scores. Besides the fact they were only going to get 70 or 80 points IF they even hit the 10 ring. Needless to say, they did not even hit the 10 ring. Talk about hurt feelers. The 10 ring, as you know, is a pretty big target... Back to the OP, I know there are guys that don't like the 6.5 creedmoor, but they also need to face the facts that it has an edge over the 308 in terms of accuracy and even terminal ballistics (the further you get out there). As for a factory off the shelf rifle, I'd bet money that similar rifles chambered in 308win and 6.5cm, the cm is going to place hits closer together on the target. At least that is what I've seen. Also keeping in mind that when we shoot comps, its 10-20 shots for score.. None of this 3 shot group bullchidt.. As we know, anyone can get lucky every once in a while when it comes to 3 shot groups:
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Here is a AR-10 You might find interesting, notice it has 2 pistol grips, the one in the back is a small electric drill clamped to the stock, then 2 bolts go to a bridge across the trigger, the drill is turned on by a bite switch, made from a electric car antenna, when you bite down on the red tip, it fires the rifle.
We made this up for a disabled vet that lost both arms at the shoulder, we put a scarf around the stock and his neck so he could wiggle his head around look threw the scope, when he got it all figured he could hit a 2" bull at 100 yrds every shot,if he didn't bite to hard and get a double tap, we set him up in a deer blind, and he shot a nice management buck, at about 150 yrds, he got a little excited and double tapped him, DRT. I backed him up, in case it didn't work but he didn't need my help. Rio7
Here is a AR-10 You might find interesting, notice it has 2 pistol grips, the one in the back is a small electric drill clamped to the stock, then 2 bolts go to a bridge across the trigger, the drill is turned on by a bite switch, made from a electric car antenna, when you bite down on the red tip, it fires the rifle.
We made this up for a disabled vet that lost both arms at the shoulder, we put a scarf around the stock and his neck so he could wiggle his head around look threw the scope, when he got it all figured he could hit a 2" bull at 100 yrds every shot,if he didn't bite to hard and get a double tap, we set him up in a deer blind, and he shot a nice management buck, at about 150 yrds, he got a little excited and double tapped him, DRT. I backed him up, in case it didn't work but he didn't need my help. Rio7
The first one like this i built on a AR-15 , but it cycled so fast, when you bit down on the bite switch it would rip of 3 or 4 rnds, the AR-10 cycles a lot slower. Rio7
The first one like this i built on a AR-15 , but it cycled so fast, when you bit down on the bite switch it would rip of 3 or 4 rnds, the AR-10 cycles a lot slower. Rio7
Bet that would get your attention!
Knew a guy out in west Texas who was a pilot, and mounted semi auto Remington 6mm rifles on his wings, and hunted coyotes with it. He had rigged an old set of Ford pickup electric door locks to trigger them. Had a sight on the fuselage and had them sighted pretty close at 100 yards.
Barry, Yeh, the faster it would fire the harder i would bite down, couldn't hit anything, learned to only put a couple of rnds in the mag. I have shot hundreds of coyotes from a R-44 with my shot gun, but never cared for a ar-15, for coyotes, or pigs, I have shot a few Coyotes, from a Tri-Pacer, fixed wing but used my shotgun, I would liked to have seen the 6mm setup on the fixed wing, bet that was kick ass set up. Rio7
168 AMAXs at 2500 MV. Doubtful they will penetrate even the skinniest vermin at hallway distance.
What have you shot with that combination and how did it work? I may bust a few nuisance hogs with it at about 2550.
Thanks.
I've killed up to a 210 pound buck in full rut with a lung shot. Don't expect penetration. Most shots I use that round on are urban hunting and neck shots. Turns them off like a switch. For pigs I like a 168 BTSP
Yes, several reasons.... I like em. Already have three LWRC REPR's bought The round has rich history in wartime and game fields alike. Was recently given over 4K sticks of primed Lake City brass Must be over 1K loaded rounds of fmj ammo in Lake City brass in that gift. Have dozens of 20 and 25 round PMags.
AR10 are cool. Can be a bit heavy, but not so much that it's a problem if you build them right. I make my own AR10 barrels from blanks and getting a rifle at about 10 pound's loaded, with a sling and a scope is not all that hard to do. In fact I can make them even lighter is need be, but not by a lot without doubling the cost.
I made one, a 308, for a 12 year old girl for Christmas 2 years ago and it's her pride and joy. She is quite a good shot with it too, and her whole family are hunters. She didn't want to get kicked so I put a large muzzle break on it with warning to not fire it without her ears covered. But just about 2 months ago her dad took her out shooting and she put 10 rounds into a group on a paper target at 100 yards that were all in the size of a small chicken egg,(about 1-5/8") and that from a field prone position, laying on her belly shooting over her school book-pack. She does well on deer and antelope and this season she's going for elk. Her rifle is field ready at 9 pounds 7 Oz.
I just finished one in 338 Federal yesterday and my friend is coming in about 1 hour to pick it up.
In my years of gunsmithing I have made "10s" in 243, 260, 6.5 CM, 7-08, 308, 338, Fed and 358 Winchester.
In the last 25 years or so the 2 most popular calibers were #1 the 308 Winchester (by at least 3 times) and next the 7-08.
The 260 was ok but when the 6.5 CM came out the 260 simply disappeared from AR10 orders The CM was designed from the start to fit in the NATO length mags and still take the longest and heaviest VLD bullets, which it does wonderfully. The 260 will actually beat the 6.5 CM if the magazine and throat of the chamber will allow the use of the same long bullets, (some bolt actions are set up that way) but that can't happen in an AR 10 mag. These days the 6.5 CM and the 7-08 are about a neck and neck tie for the second most popular caliber ordered in custom AR10s. But the 308 is still in the #1 spot, and that by a considerable margin.
I made one for myself a while back and I did it in the 308 and next I made a complete upper in 358 Winchester so I can swap it back and forth. But I debated back and forth for quite some time about making a 338 Federal instead. But I am happy with my 358. One thing I do fairly often is make custom AR10 style barrels for other builders. I set them up for the length of gas tube they want and head-space them for a bolt that either comes with the barrel, or I set the headspace to the bolt they send to me. In that way anyone that can do "kitchen table builds" can have an AR10 in a "custom caliber" and in any length and twist available for that bore size. The rest of the build is simply like any assembly job on any AR.
No particular reason, but I thoroughly enjoy shooting / plinking with mine. It is just a basic Armalite with 1-11.25 twist. Hell, I enjoy shooting it more than AR-15’s. Edit to add: I did replace the factory trigger with a Geissele 2 stage.
Originally Posted by rbutcher
Do 7.62 AR10s really have a place anymore? A 6.5 is superior for external ballistics, even out of 14.5/16 barrels based on numbers I ran, and will have better hit probability in wind. Is there any reason other than perhaps barrel life to have one of these anymore?
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