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If the NRA fails completely would CMP pick up all match sanctioning? Classifications?

I can't compete any longer but the shooting sports still hold interest for me. Looks like anything that involves a heavy shooting coat is going away?

This is what made me think about CMP picking up sanctioning from NRA,
3x600

i think like any business, it may fail, but would reopen with a new name and continue on. just my thoughts.

CMP already has a classification and sanctioning program for across the course high power, prone, bullseye pistol etc in addition to the distinguished/non-distinguished and EIC sanctioning they have done for 100 years.

if NRA quit (for whatever reason) sanctioning ("approved" "registered") any of these types of matches, local clubs could just register with CMP instead. I think there are a lot more local matches that are not "approved" "registered" but are just club matches.

our local pistol club is currently running international/olympic-style pistol with NRA "approved" or "registered" sanctioning, they could just switch back to USAShooting if needed.

shoot good, see you all at Perry....

Poole

I am anxious to see what the participation will be at Atterbury and Perry this year.

The NRA National Match participation has really dwindled since the Atterbury move. I shot there on 2017 and 2018.

Plenty of competitors are upset about the eye protection requirements from the CMP at all matches and the possibility of having mask requirements at Camp Perry.

That being said if the NRA would get out of shooting sports I believe the powers to be at CMP would be happy. They have pretty much everything covered already from classifications to F-Class.

Hopefully the National trophies would end up with the CMP and back at Perry if the NRA would fold.

Not to get off topic but I heard atterbury is a much nicer venue and better accommodations? I heard at perry they are making accommodations better.

Back on topic our club is holding a EIC leg match and they barely got 9 people to sign up. I can’t go I will be working. But for our regular NRA matches bulk of the shooters are F class shooters, even the fairly néw class AR tactical only 3 of us shoot it, the old service rifle scene is dying.

Perry is still Perry, lots of history there. The housing is updated but limited. There are over 200 working targets between Viale and Rodriguez.

The range at Atterbury is ok. Only 50 targets. The range faces south so pulling targets from 11:00 on can be a pain and hot.

Lodging is nice and inexpensive but is limited.

Where there are good junior programs the participation seems to be better. But overall the sport is not growing. I shot an EIC two weeks ago that had three legs. I missed the cut by one point, I would have gone out. A 476 just does not cut it anymore.

Here is what our pits look like “. We use shot markers now so no more pit duty.



And range from the 600yd line.


We have 7 shot markers as of now. Are mstches are running a lot fast and smoother. Even the old guys are figuring out the electronic target thing lol. Maybe one day our club could host a match where shooters from lower 48 come up folks can tie it in with a vacation 😁

I have spent about a year in Alaska between work and vacation. We were in Alaska last August during Covid. It was nice with the crowds way down.

The problem is gear, that is a lot to fly with.

But you never know...

Are you shooting on base at Elmendorf/Richardson?

Nice looking range

You could offer free muktuk to attract shooters from the lower 48, however they may never return.

Fort Richardson side. pedneau range..

Now that's a beautiful range. Thanks for posting the pics.

do you get wind swirl off those trees on those left side shooting points?

Yes we had screwy winds coming from the left at times. We had days where left wind flag is doing nothing but the right wind flag is blowing in the wind. Off to the right is ship creek drainage and our winds come off the mtns and ship creek drainage. We also have had bad tailwinds. Then we had days with no wind. I think the big berm on the right cause the most problems.

I made the prediction long ago that the National Match game of across the course would die because of F-Class. Younger shooters know squat about the use of aperture sights and the other thing that helped kill the Service Rifle game was the adoption of the ‘rat rifle’ with its sorry-ass short sight radius! I’m proud I got to cut the heart out of the game when the M1 Garand was king!!

Mr M,
I respect your contributions to the sport and your opinions...but I will give my dissenting view to two of your opinions.
1) I do not agree that F-Class is killing Across the Course Highpower Rifle. If anything it is extending the shooting career of older shooters. Mid Tompkins, Larry Bartholome, and Jerry Tierny (RIP) are a few names that come to mind. I'm not seeing a highpower migration to F-Class happening and believe it appeals to a different crowd as well as the highpower grand seniors that maybe can't get into position or can't see well enough. Instead, I see PRS as the bigger draw with a shorter learning curve to get started, easier range setup and near instant gratification.

2) I straddle the M14 era and the M16 era's. I've competed with both and won with both. Both responded well to the proper application of marksmanship skills. But I feel that the Rat Gun as you call it, saved Service Rifle Competition. Let me explain. In the past, an accurate M14 was the domain of a fortunate few. You either needed military support, or you needed friends with that specialized knowledge. A competitive gun was not easily obtained and civilians were at a significant disadvantage. The AR15 put a competitive rifle into pretty much any shooters hands for not much more than a grand. And that grand got you a rifle that was considerably easier to care for and feed. That drew out a bunch of folk. Add to that it was junior friendly which further added to the numbers. The rise of the "Rat Gun" came at just the right time as the DCM recalled all of their state association M14's and the DCM and later the CMP stopped issuing ammo for NBPRP matches. The "Rat Gun" ensured that Service Rifle continued to be accessible to Joe Average (Chris Average in my case), and drew in more juniors (Chris Average Jr.).

Aperture sights continued to be part of the skill set to master with the Rat Gun, and actually became more important to learn as the shorter sight radius was less forgiving than on your beloved M1 or the M14.

If you want to point the finger at something that is degrading the learning of shooting with aperture sights, it's the rule change that allowed optics...but that rule allows optics on the M1 and M14 as well. I have mixed feelings about that rule...on one hand it has increased the cost of a service rifle significantly (although iron's are still legal and competitive)...but on the other hand it's extending the career of Service Rifle shooters, and it's somewhat aligned to what the troops are issued.

I have to ask you a question...have you gotten your grandkids out competing in Highpower Rifle? you know they can still compete with your beloved Garand. If the answer to this question is no...I'll ask "why not?"

We had something like that at K-Bay. The range was in the corner of an old crater. The crater was breached on the ocean side which allowed the trades to blow from right to left. Problem is that the gusts would start off from the right, then hit the crater wall and redirect so that shortly after they came from the left. I was warned of the phenomenon by some Marine friends, but didn't believe it until I experienced it. It was pretty predictable.

K-Bay looking toward the "Big End" of the Range (military shooters will understand).


K-Bay center of the line with the crater wall visible on the left.

ChrisF, that looks like a fun range!
Great pic with the 14.

I spent a lot of time on the range in K-Bay. I was my Squadrons PMI for three years there.

Mike, it is a great place to shoot. I should say "was" because I haven't shot there in over a decade, and when I checked google earth, it couldn't make out the yard lines!

Did anyone notice something strange with that Marine on the 14? I almost want to say he's sighting with his left eye and shooting off his left shoulder, but he's got his right hand working the trigger? I need to take a better look at that print!

Made me look again, but it is just a solid cheek weld with the butt tucked in tight. The angle from the scorer's position is deceptive.

Yep, he's on it!

Dang, Chris, I've sat on a sand bar out in the bay and had no idea a range was that close!

Here's another view of the range courtesy of Google Earth. The bay is shielded from the range by the crater wall. I lived across the bay and never heard a shot...just jet noise from the airfield and fireworks from the shows.

I just returned from Camp Perry. Overall attendance was down this year, and in my opinion it was caused by Covid and uncertainty if masks would be required on base. I think some people stayed away because CMP requires eye protection while shooting, scoring, or in the pits. The Presidents Hundred still had 836 entries and the National Trophy Individual Rifle match 792 entries with enough non-distinguished shooters for 51 legs. That is probably about a 20% decrease from 2019.

The NRA Championship is starting now. Across the Course is two weeks away but I am hearing around 70 entries. Sadly, NRA high power cannot continue the way it is being run. We have Regionals with more shooters.

On a personal note I shot terrible at the P-100, Leg Match, Hearst Doubles. Had some target puller/line official problems at the P-100 and let it ruin my day, 100% my fault for not controlling the situation and to let it continue to affect my shooting. Good learning experience.

Is that a 500 yard range?
Does the Honolulu Rifle and Pistol Club shoot Rifle EIC matches there?
I bet the whole family would attend that match.

Please elaborate? What you think should change? We have the same issues up here maybe 7-10 of us shoot across the course.

79S,

On a National Match level, this is my perspective as a competitor. I have shot at Perry multiple times, and Atterbury twice.

The NRA should have never left Perry. It is my understanding the NRA and CMP were acting like petulant children. Not blaming one or the other, but for their customers (shooters) it was a bad move.
At some point how can you call it a National Match when attendance is under 50? The military is not sending teams, some military shooters are going, but not on orders.
Also the NRA rifle matches are now held in mid August. Junior shooters are back in school. They are the key to growing the sport.

What needs to change at a National level?

In a perfect world the NRA and CMP work together, the NRA matches go back to Perry, The CMP Cup matches become the 2400 aggregate for the NRA with all of the NRA trophies, same for mid range and long range events. However this will not happen, attendance will continue to dwindle for the NRA, at some point the NRA National Matches will cease to exist.

On top of everything else, high power is not an easy sport. Between hauling gear around, the difficulty of shooting three positions, the overall expenses, pulling targets, and it is not very glamorous or exciting like the popular run and gun stuff. F-Class has grown but in general you shoot under cover, in one position, from a rest.

On a local/state level a good junior program is a must. In Louisiana, we have not sent a kid to Perry since I started shooting again in 2017, other than one that I introduced to the Texas coaches and they took him. We do not do a good job of promoting matches, getting scores out, cutting grass at the range, updating range calendars and attendance has dwindled to low levels. I think the last time two Legs were awarded was in in 2017, there are no state or regional matches held. I emailed the Junior director about plans for the program, no response.

In Texas they will send three teams of juniors to Perry, promote their local matches, keep websites updated, keep up the ranges, have adult teams for Perry (they were high civilian team again this year). But the population of Texas is 6 times that of Louisiana and 40 times that of Alaska.

A lot of rambling however to improve attendance on a local level we have to get juniors involved in the programs. Poach kids from 4H and Boy Scout programs. Electronic targets will help with participation. Promote through Facebook, newspaper, gun stores, etc. Have rifles and gear for new shooters to borrow. Start them on a 100 yard range. Send results with a write up to everybody you can. And the hardest of all is to have a High Power director committed to growing the sport. It is a time consuming and thankless job.

Those are all very good points, and pretty much what we talked about up here. We pretty much accepted the fact these folks like instant gratification and hearing the bullet hit steel is what the want. The bad is that bullet doesn’t have to hit X,10,9 just hit steely out get points. I have bud built a 338 Norma mag he will shoot 30-40rds at the range at 300yds. I tell come to one our 600yd mid range prone matches nope won't show up. Back to high power xtc some don’t understand why we do slow fire, some think it’s stupid how come they can’t jam 20rds in a magazine and let them fly. At 20rd rapid fire at 600yds be pretty interesting 😁. I’m trying to get my daughter into it she’s 21. Far as advertisement our club has fb and website it’s constantly updated with up to dates match results and upcoming matches. We also have 7 shot markers now. With the intention of buying more for nra/cmp xtc highpower matches. Right now we glue 200yd centers on the back of 500yd targets and use our 600yd frames. With few more shot markers we can set up dedicated 200/300yd frames. Our club has loaner rifles as well no scopes on them, the only hurdle we saw this year was ammo ie 77gr ammo for the 600yd line. But even with all we have for a small club our xtc mstches don’t have many folks showing up. Now our midrange shoots we have anywhere from 15-28 show up on Tuesday evenings.

Very well stated and lines up with my thoughts as well.

I had to quit due to heath problems around 2014 and even then we could see the handwriting on the wall. Hard to recruit Jr's with supportive parents even then.

When I read about NRA moving to Atterbury I said then the split would be the end of NRA nationals.

And you nailed it on the match dates killing the Jr's ability to attend. That was a problem even back when I was still active.

It does take effort to shoot XTC, getting in a coat in hot weather plus hauling all your gear on foot all day is just like work. I thought it was the toughest organized shooting around back then.

The NRA has been a huge disappointment and seems to be circling the toilet faster all the time.

Even when the NRA was still at Perry, I don't think that they understood what Highpower was all about. Their magazine articles were all about the match rifle shooters when the majority of shooters there were SR. It seems like almost every article was about a certain family. Also, shooters cared more about getting Leg points than any medal the NRA would hand out.

The NRA Across the Course matches are finished. SSG Amanda Elsenboss won the championship with a service rifle and set a new record with service rifle at 2386. The last day she shot a 200 offhand, 199 at 300, and a 200 at the 600 yard line. She is a true champion.

Unfortunately there were only 63 shooters participating.

Good to hear the USAMU is still bringing the cream. Sad to hear how far participation has fallen. Who took the Mumma?

Chris, if you are referring to Amanda Elsenboss, she is no longer with the Army. I was squadded with her at a small match we held at Ben Avery last February and she was representing Team Berger and the Pennsylvania (?) National Guard if I remember correctly.

Thsnks for the correction…thats me!…always a step behind the news…read Mike70560’s post more carefully and see that Amanda E won the Mumma! Only the 5th time with a Service Rifle…and only the third time won by a woman!

NRA Scores

A link to the scores.

I'm friends with Nick Till's father, the one who won the CSR category. He's won the CMP CSR championship in the past. His father was a great shooter in his own right. IIRC, he went Distinguished and P100 in his first or second year of shooting.

The NRA just released their 2022 Championship schedule. Across the course is now in mid-July, with a CMP EIC (Leg) match the day after the championship.

Hopefully more junior shooters will come, along with guys chasing points. You would have four days of shooting to get zeros and then a leg match. Maybe a few more Expert/Master shooters will show up.

NRA 2022 Calendar

Ask almost any youngster today if they enjoy shooting Across The Course comp and they’ll look at you with a look of …..what the hell is that??

I knew it was going to happen when scope usage evolved! Now when these kids hit a target using a scope at 1000 yards they think they’re shooters! Shame Shame!!

63 participants. Wow. When I went to Perry the first time in ‘88, there was easily twice that amount in each classification competing.

That is sad. If you subtract the Army, and Reserve team shooters, that means there were likely only about 50 civilians (or less).

It’s not a dying sport, it’s an almost dead one.

Not yet. They just go to the CMP Nationals, which were always more popular anyways.