Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Jim Shockey...

I will admit right up front that Im not a Shockey fan. I know a lot about him, but thats got nothing to do with this. Thoughts on this?? Ive been in the business for 35 years and my question to Shockey would be how many outfitters took outside jobs to keep things rolling?? My wife and I both did. Maybe Im old school but a deal is a deal to me. Make it work. We rolled our clients ahead...thats the only fair thing to do in my opinion.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/deep-dives/canadian-outfitters-border-closure-hunt-refunds/

I don’t know Shockey personally. I have clients that have had business dealings with him and were fine dealing with him.

Also have clients in the industry and have a pretty good idea what they are going through

I see some of his point.

Having said that I feel/think it is incumbent on the outfitter to roll the commitment forward . Or refund the $ if you can’t make a reasonable attempt to provide the Hunt - not necessarily in 2021 , but 2021 or 22 . Obviously some juggling involved because most are , or were , booked 2-3 years out.

So to accommodate someone who was supposed to hunt in 2020 in 2021 or 2022 you have to move someone else. They have to be aware of this and try to be reasonable as well.

Letter of law ? Probably don’t have to roll forward. Still I think it is reasonable.

Lot of self justification in the article

The border shut down is going to happen again it's just a matter of when. My thinking is, you'd have to be nuts or have money to burn to ever pay for a Canadian hunt upfront. For US residents Alaska is the only way to go.

My wife and I did..............................

I'm super unimpressed with this from Jim Shockey.

As per the comments "Shockey is laying it on a bit thick"

If the net were 10%, I don't think many would have stayed in the guiding business.

I would think Shockey has made enough $$$$ to weather this storm but small, newer operations will suffer for sure.

us the people who booked the hunt with a guide should receive a large portion of the money back , matter of fact those hunts with a guide the price of insurance should be part of the fee all the time and guides should make it mandatory that insurance is always part of the fee. that way hunters have some protection with their money and guides do also get some protection then too. very foolish that this money down for a guiding /outfit hunting or fishing trip isn`t even a law to protect a consumer and the guides. common sense would be get this rule /law passed for hunter /guide protection????

I honestly don't think we need anymore laws. But after this China flu BS everyone needs to be fully aware that there's a real need for trip insurance. The guides can and should have some kind of wage insurance to cover themselves,.

May I ask which outfitting operation is yours or that you work for? A PM would be fine if you're not comfortable saying on the open board.

Or feel free to tell me to mind my own buisness.

Thanks.

First, if the oh so benevolent government is handing out money like they have been, the government should be refunding the fees paid for what the government subsequently prohibited, in reality as a practical matter if not explicitly. Secondly, the next negotiations should be between the businesses involved in the B2B transactions Shockey referenced. Those outfitters shouldn't be left holding the bag alone on lodging, etc. that they didn't utilize. Then, what about insurance the outfitters carry to mitigate loss - do any of those policies help pay for the shortfall?

Only after all other means to recoup funds are exhausted, and the outfitter should be able to explain everything he did, should the business providing an agreed-upon service go to the customer seeking more money. The inflation issue makes sense that I think everyone can relate to, and I think most customers would be willing to add some additional compensation to cover inflation. However, most people are going to see business expenses as business expenses and part of what a business owner has to manage to stay in business. Shockey mentions all the additional costs that "full- time" outfitters may have, but the increased size of the busines means the risks taken on by the owners increase, too. Any business that is contemplating asking customers to pay again (double) for the same goods or services they haven't received yet probably should just shut their doors.

An additional option is to add species such as birds, varmints, and fish that can be used to help bring additional revenue at no or minimal additional costs. I really think an inflation surcharge to cover increased expenses and offering add-ons should be what the outfitters focus on with their customers. Most people would probably consider paying another 20% or so under the circumstances, especially if they are getting "more," but 40% more for something you've already paid for and not received would be hard to swallow unless you're getting more than what you originally paid for. The outfitters will also need to increase their margins for future hunts to make up the 2020-21 shortfall. It's time for the outfitters to get creative.

I'll add, too, if the contract stated that the balance of the contract amount had to be paid by a certain date, and the hunter didn't fulfill his obligation, those nonrefundable deposits are fair game for the outfitter to do with as he pleases.

I have a lot of sympathy for the outfitters, but the way Shockey wrote his article appeared a little tone deaf. Of course, the article kinda lines up with my impression of his personality from the few times I've seen him on TV so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Never met the man but my hunting partner has several times and says he is a really decent guy to chat with.

Given all that, I think he is off base on this topic. He does make a good point about clients being responsible for their own travel insurance though.

I think what the cruise ship industry has done is reasonable, if less than perfect. If they could not provide the service contracted (the cruise) they gave a credit for 100-125% of the cost of the cruise, to be used again future sailings (any sailings). i.e. I believe the credit is for the value of the cruise, not necessarily one cruise for another. People who have booked later cruises are not bumped to accommodate those whose cruise did not sail. Seems reasonable as a baseline for outfitters to follow that model.
I understand the point he made about yearly operating expenses before the trip, but that is the outfitters business model and his risk, and suggesting the client eats that cost is unreasonable. That would be like the farmer who wants the processor to pay for his expenses when he has a crop failure with not crop to sell!

I suspect any outfitters who do not work with their clients towards a reasonable solution, in spite of what their lawyers advise is their legal requirement, will suffer significant bad press and their business will suffer, as it should.

Poor Jim Shockey...

It's my understanding that trip insurance won't cover for COVID related issues moving forward. Not sure how people fared for last year if they had purchased insurance prior to COVID but tried to get paid out for cancelled hunts last yr.

no more in the outfitting or guiding business as well but he is out of lunch but that will not the first time as well ...

Sent you a PM. I own Grizzly Creek Lodge.

as soon as I started reading that story I thought of Force Majeure in a contract.

I had never heard that term until last year when my group was on the hook for several thousand dollars worth of hotel costs for an event we couldn't have.

As I understand it , Force Majeure is valid for contracts that were written before Covid-19 was a known threat. Once its decided that a cancellation is possible, even if it isn't defined in the contract due to a known entity (like booking a hotel room on the coast during hurricane season) then Force Majeure can no longer be claimed.

Also, 25% of the cost of the trip seems really high for trip insurance. Maybe that's due to the volatile nature of a hunting trip, but standard travel destination insurance thru a 3rd party is never more than 10% for vacations I insure.

The guy hunts the world and is crying about money?

Maybe Nosler quit putting money “up front”.

No idea on running an outfitting business.


Do know a local guy who booked a $17,000 moose hunt with him, 10 years ago.

Then got a call. Would you like to be on the show?
Not upfront telling him he would be beforehand.
But an invite of sorts.

This guy is a ham, likes attention, so of course he said yes.

Then he was informed he needed to buy T/C rifle, what scope,
And (if I remember) Federal premium ammo loaded with Acubonds.
Pretty sure they told him a list of chamberings.

"Wait a dam minute. $17k for a hunt?
They are getting paid to film?
You have to buy everything he pushes on film?
At full retail?"

He did.

And was happy with the whole deal. Killed a nice bull.
Of course, he payed to have his picture in the local newspaper.


And, he never even laid eyes in Jim Shockey!

It left a bad impression on me.

The money was ok. He made the deal.
But the whole filming/buying endorsed stuff at full retail,
seemed a rip off. But, it was his ego.

But after that, I get not being guided by the man. Maybe.
But to never even get eyes on him?
Shockey was a big part of the package he paid for.

I heard the Canadian government was doing some secretive testing scarier than the Wuhan institute of virology.

And that is how they created Jim shockey's FACE

Holy fck, that blocked headed Canadian had to have been an experiment gone bad.

I feel for the clients. Not so much for the outfitters. The outfitting industry has a high percentage of probably of more "crooks" than any other profession. I know this from both personal and professional experience. There's only one other well known profession where payment is due before the service. The end result is the same for both with the client getting F**ked. My apologies to the minority of outfitters who have a conscience.

I know a lot of people who hunt and only know 2 who have went hunting in Canada, a doctor and an independently wealthy man. If either lost their deposit they wouldn’t like it but they’d start their next day like any other, that’s play money for them.

If an outfitter chooses to keep clients money as described, I doubt they’ll be in business much longer.

Kinda what they call rich people problems.

I know a bunch.

My dad has hunted Caribou in Qubec about a half dozen times.
Moose in Newfoundland 3 or 4. He is a (now) retired factory
worker.
He would be heartbroken to lose that money.
Because he is really tight! Not because he couldn't afford to.
Anyone spending money on a hunting trip can afford to lose it.
Hunting trips aren't where poor people spent essential money.

Give me a break.

CV19 and the Governments screwed over LOTS of people not just Canadian outfitters. My African hunting friends have taken a huge hit. Business owners all over the world were not allowed to operate losing income and closing businesses which will never re-open.

Some of the Africa guys offered heavily discounted hunts last year when travel was allowed. They didn't make money but they did open their camps, pay staff and fill some quota. I actually went on one of those hunts last October.

Outfitters who got paid deposits or paid in full should have kept back money knowing their season would not happen. I don't think it's right for Shockey to ask the hunt money be a donation. If I was in the situation with an outfitter I had hunted with previously I might donate something but it's wrong to expect the hunter to be out his full cost.

Interesting perspective. In my experience, Canadian hunting, like hunting in general, is not at all a rich man’s game. Rather it is a pastime enjoyed by folks who value it enough to sacrifice elsewhere.

Regardless, a man’s obligation under an agreement has nothing to do with his financial situation. His account balance might determine whether he CAN keep his bargain, but not whether he should. In the end, men of character do the right thing. Others, not so much.

When I booked my first hunt in the Yukon all my friends asked "are you hunting with Shocky, I'd love to hunt with him".
My answer was no because you don't get to hunt with Shocky, he only guides the SCI hunts he donates and sponsors for the show. Also his base cost are 20% higher and he has several add on cost like you paying to have your game meat flown out on a separate plane to be donated to locals.
He is a great marketer, successful businessman and nice guy from all I hear. My outfitter said he helped increase the hunter numbers and improved revenue based upon supply and demand.
Covid and resulting government actions will kill many in the business.

All I know is he has good shows on cable if you ignore the ads. And his daughter is absolutely beautiful! She seems like the sweetest person every time she hunts with him.

I feel sorry for everyone who has lost loved ones, job, money, homes, etc through this scamdemic. I would suggest taking out your wrath on the gummint communists that engineered this whole fiasco, not the little guy left in an untenable situation. I hope my B.C. Fishing lodge friends weather this storm as they are looking retirement squarely in the face. Sad

There is something else going on.......the more G/O that go out of business the better "some" people like it, because the Government will just give the Indians the guiding territories, that is why they don't mind the shyte storm.

Government and special interest have been having a massive orgy during the Covid rules they created.

Not my Federal or Provincial Government.

673;
Good morning to you my friend, I hope the rain was a bit heavier up your way possibly, but regardless hope you're all doing okay.

While we don't know each other extremely well yet, I believe you know me well enough to understand when I say how much I wish your post was incorrect.

There is nothing I'd love more than to show you facts which refute your position...well not much I'd love more, you know?

Sadly for both of us, once again sir I believe you to be correct.

All the best regardless.

Dwayne

There's more, I am biting my tongue but will say this......the big losers here will be the Citizen's of this Province.
The situation can best be described as bizarre, and it makes no sense, even when you know what the outcome is going to be.
I wish I were wrong too, but folks need to spend more time studying their enemies and they would see the game for what it is.

The People who want to come and hunt in BC will be alright, but it will take some time.

I'm told short term, the browsing animals. deer, and moose thrive in the shrubs, and regrowth?

Are you referring to the fires?

Yes. I also told blueberries thrive on burned over ground?

A question came to mind while reading all of this. Is there insurance available to the outfitters to protect them in case an "act of God" prevents them from providing their service? That would seem to be a wise investment also.

For some reason Alaska costs a lot more than Canada

Because it's worth it.

Not if you're chasing mule deer or whitetails.

SKane;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope there's not too, too much BC smoke blowing down your way and all in your world who matter are well.

As you mentioned, if one is looking for certain species - say Stone Sheep, then Alaska won't really work.

While I completely understand some folks' frustration with what is going on, hopefully they also are cognizant of the fact that anyone they "punish" by not coming up to hunt here won't be even remotely responsible for making the decisions that have put us all into this quagmire.

Not much else to say about that really is there?

Well for the newer folks, I don't guide or outfit, have never, ever been remotely connected to one and do not imagine a situation where I would ever be involved with one, especially since I'm attempting to be retired and all.

All the best to you sir.

Dwayne

Dwayne,

I'm happy to hear you side-stepped personal disaster there. Yeah, we have a little haze in my neck of the woods and air quality alerts but it'd be ridiculous to even consider whining about it given what your part of the country has been through.

–––

This mess sucks all around for both hunters and outfitters.

Or stupid women and men. Keep feeding the enemy

Some parts of Alaska are worth it, I'm thinking of the south eastern section.You need a boat for that. Tundra and muskeg, not so much.

Just saw on Instagram that Jim Shockey is in real real bad shape. Could be Lyme but no one knows. He can barely walk

I guess in the many years of guiding and being in the industry, making his million dollar a year revenue as he discusses in the article, it never occurred to Jim Shockey to actually get insurance on his business...

Shockey is loaded, his wife was an actress! I knew a guy that booked a black bear hunt Shockey was supposed to be here was A know show. Guy took a good bear, not a giant tho! It was. very high price,than can't remember. The Outfitters should repay at least part of the $$$, or offer a discount on another hunt.
Maybe the Americans should boycott Canada for a few years!

Nothing good to say about Shockey.

I read last year that his wife had stage four lung cancer. Whatever happened with that?

She passed away last November.

I heard she is being treated for cancer but is still alive.

Dr. Death;
Good afternoon, I hope the day's been a good one for you and you're well.

Regarding Jim Shockey, on his facebook page he's reported that the doctors believe it's "Probably it’s polymyalgia rheumatica (PMR) or maybe a variation of Lyme’s Disease."

His wife Louise was still alive as of the post which was October 02nd, but she was diagnosed with late stage, aggressive lung cancer last November.

The last part of what he writes is as follows:

"The truth is, every single one of us will face trials and tribulations at some point in our lives, so why hide the truth? This happens to be my turn to face adversity, so why deny it? Why hide it? Just to make people think my life is a bowl of cherries? A fairytale?
Just to preserve an image? Protect a “brand?”

Nope. Sorry. Won’t do it.

The reality is, in spite of what we read on Social Media, the sun does not always shine upon anyone, no matter how famous.

And nobody, no matter how healthy their lifestyle, no matter how many sheep mountains they have climbed, no matter how long they have walked the walk and no matter how tough they might think they are…will be able to avoid being laid low and humbled at some point.

So that’s why I posted this clip.

It’s the truth."

While I don't know Jim Shockey from a fig, nor he me and I've never had any interactions with him, I will say that my late Mom suffered from polymyalgia and I've lost way too many friends from cancer.

My thoughts and prayers are with them as they work through this all. Has to be tough.

All the best and good luck on your hunts.

Dwayne

Wow.

I don't know Shockey either but both he and his wife being sick is tough.

Uh, no she didn’t.

Ah, the "mystery illness" strikes again ....

courtesy of the jab .... much, much more to come and millions more will be struck down

I read through this thread just now. I thought Shockey was explaining outfitting in Canada, sorta like Tiger woods explaining issues around the LIV tour. Not making personal excuses for personal problems, all being actions he was forced to take and screwing US client. That would be stupid. If he actually personally had al, or some of, l those problems himself, he would be stupid to lay it all out in a national US publication. Why? Just so that all the most litigious clients could leap frog each other in attempts to pick his bones clean?

I don't know much about him, I always thought he was an American, while briskly walking past his videos at Walmart. Only learned he was Canadian when the latest government plans to seize antique firearms, etc..., were revealed. Shockey stuck his head up to speak out on that one also. It's possible he might be a stand up guy. Sure that works well with self-promotion. That is what winners do, they figure out how to get ahead without torquing everyone else in the process.

I’m glad someone said it.

Your correct, I googled "Jim Shockey's wife died" made the post without examining the site, it's a different Jim Shockey, wife named Louise.

My apologies.