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Originally Posted by 79S
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by iskra
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of in that beauty, Herr Glock! From the days of the Model 54, believe 1934 forward, the Wincher bolt rifles with essentially the stocks (such as cheekpieces/butt drop angle, checkering pattern excepted), much the same. Only a few of the very early nineties SG labeled models without such as the black forend tip & SG swivels something of a dip. Otherwise, seems the SG image largely sustained! My .338 Win from '93 has tiger striping & quite nice. My 338 Win vintage 1960 also a beauty, with the more traditional pre '64 cheekpiece. Happy for the few I own!

As far as Browning parent. I can't particularly comment beyond generalization. I do understand their main focus nowadays, armaments. On wider scale, so many of the old quality names are now in Chinese inventory. Some of them good/great products, too many others... Not. I tend not to identify by brands in many such instances. With Winchesters, the only truly dark period in early '64+ era with material 'hit' to the brand. The Model 70... What to say! Pretty terrible. Their lever group finish pretty poor and only a bit better across the better part of two decades!

I've generally stuck to the older Winchesters, as many other brands. But SG's like the above, a definite lure!

Just my take!
Best!
John

Browning really wanted to make a show with their 2008 limited edition fwt. That was the best BACO in my honest opinion:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
After my gunsmith screwed an EW barrel on it. ^^^^

They were the sweetest BACO made. Many of us were so happy that the model 70 was being brought back, we didn't care by who. At first it was FN who was involved and that was a great thing, as most of us know FN was putting out some excellent chidt at that time, but mostly military contract stuff. My FN PBR XP was one of them. A highly fine tuned classic model 70, that FN was responsible for:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The accuracy was insane and the function was second to none. One hell of a fine piece of equipment, much like the first BACO's to leave the factory. Those were the 2008 models. Guys like 79s say the Portuguese model 70's are better in every way, but not better than the first model 70's BACO produced. At that time, they were proud to be bringing the infamous model 70 back and they took more time to make them right.


I own 1 BACO made model 70 and it’s a South Carolina made rifle, the early ones still used leftover parts from new Haven I think the first ones like you had all still had Williams bottom metal. The FN plant is South Carolina was never intended to build sporting rifles. It’s purpose is to provide weapons to the military. The 240B along with m16 and m4 are made there. Also baco has control over the stocks since the stock making operation for BACO is located In Portugal. Anyhow enough of that. I consider some of the best made model 70’s besides pre64’s are the 5 digit classics now you talk about fit and finish.

That '81 XTR of your daughters is a fine specimen too. Don't leave that one out of the mix..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
As the OP said, we are all entitled to our opinions and I'll get flamed for this, but I think the Portugese M70s are as good, or better, than any M70 Winchester ever turned out.


And while I'm at it the much heralded New Haven M70s of a few years ago gave us nothing but trouble at the LGS where I worked ( and we were a Winchester authorized repair center)

The BACO and Portugese guns are better.


My sons both had Classic SS .270s and both had issues; one with the hot glue squirted into the recoil lug recess willy-nilly, and the other with the floorplate latch. I adjusted the triggers on both.

I would prefer the old trigger, but won’t sweat the new one. Maybe if I was planning a wilderness hunt I would replace it with one from that place in Alaska and have the bolt handle spot-welded, but since no one is gonna carry me into the backcountry, I think the stock setup will do.😛

Now, with their budget XPRline available, the M70 can be the high-end line it should be for those willing to pay for it.

Last edited by Pappy348; 08/02/21.

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I'd agree with you on the new trigger, it can be adjusted but its a PITA and yeah the Shoe Goo "bedding" at the lug is deplorable.


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I've had three of the Extreme Weather M70s in the last 6-8 years. Two were in .30-06, one in .308. All were capable of decent hunting accuracy but each gun was very picky as to which bullets it would shoot accurately (consistent groups of an inch or less). All these rifles appeared to be very well made and functioned perfectly. I no longer have any of these rifles, but if I found another that was accurate with a variety of bullets, I certainly wouldn't part with it.

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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by 79S
Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by iskra
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of in that beauty, Herr Glock! From the days of the Model 54, believe 1934 forward, the Wincher bolt rifles with essentially the stocks (such as cheekpieces/butt drop angle, checkering pattern excepted), much the same. Only a few of the very early nineties SG labeled models without such as the black forend tip & SG swivels something of a dip. Otherwise, seems the SG image largely sustained! My .338 Win from '93 has tiger striping & quite nice. My 338 Win vintage 1960 also a beauty, with the more traditional pre '64 cheekpiece. Happy for the few I own!

As far as Browning parent. I can't particularly comment beyond generalization. I do understand their main focus nowadays, armaments. On wider scale, so many of the old quality names are now in Chinese inventory. Some of them good/great products, too many others... Not. I tend not to identify by brands in many such instances. With Winchesters, the only truly dark period in early '64+ era with material 'hit' to the brand. The Model 70... What to say! Pretty terrible. Their lever group finish pretty poor and only a bit better across the better part of two decades!

I've generally stuck to the older Winchesters, as many other brands. But SG's like the above, a definite lure!

Just my take!
Best!
John

Browning really wanted to make a show with their 2008 limited edition fwt. That was the best BACO in my honest opinion:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
After my gunsmith screwed an EW barrel on it. ^^^^

They were the sweetest BACO made. Many of us were so happy that the model 70 was being brought back, we didn't care by who. At first it was FN who was involved and that was a great thing, as most of us know FN was putting out some excellent chidt at that time, but mostly military contract stuff. My FN PBR XP was one of them. A highly fine tuned classic model 70, that FN was responsible for:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The accuracy was insane and the function was second to none. One hell of a fine piece of equipment, much like the first BACO's to leave the factory. Those were the 2008 models. Guys like 79s say the Portuguese model 70's are better in every way, but not better than the first model 70's BACO produced. At that time, they were proud to be bringing the infamous model 70 back and they took more time to make them right.


I own 1 BACO made model 70 and it’s a South Carolina made rifle, the early ones still used leftover parts from new Haven I think the first ones like you had all still had Williams bottom metal. The FN plant is South Carolina was never intended to build sporting rifles. It’s purpose is to provide weapons to the military. The 240B along with m16 and m4 are made there. Also baco has control over the stocks since the stock making operation for BACO is located In Portugal. Anyhow enough of that. I consider some of the best made model 70’s besides pre64’s are the 5 digit classics now you talk about fit and finish.

That '81 XTR of your daughters is a fine specimen too. Don't leave that one out of the mix..


You are correct, those WRA XTR featherweights 80-81 are very well made with pretty damn good wood on them.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Originally Posted by ruffedgrouse
And a lot of that is based on my hunts in wilderness settings where reliability is really what you want more that anything else. So the one piece bolt and...


And I forgot to mention, (if by one piece you mean bolt body and handle made out of one piece), the new M70 have one piece bolts, too. I think post-64 push feeds use a handle that was bronze-brazed on like the Remington 700 that influenced it, as well as perhaps the classics and FN SC made guns. But the M70s coming out of Portugal use one piece bolts and handles.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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That’s good news. One less thing to worry about.


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I don't think it was anything to worry about when they were bronze-brazed. Bronze-brazing is very nearly as strong as the surrounding steel. I've literally never seen a brazed on handle break off. Notwithstanding the comments about Remington 700s on sniper forums like, "I seen five break off today" (yes, that was an actual post), the structural integrity is very, very strong. BTW, Remington 700 bolt heads are brazed on, too, and no one ever complains about those. I suspect that failures of Remington bolt handles arose mainly from do-it-yourselfers trying to tacticalize their guns by cutting off the stock bolt handles and slop-welding on a new tacticool version without using a heat sink installed and heat absorbing paste which might have caused a compromise in the brazing.

Last edited by 10Glocks; 08/03/21.
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mr. 10 glocks: that is interesting. in the picture you posted, it appears that the un-machined portion just ahead of the bolt sleeve shows that the bolt was cast and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if they are actually a one piece bolt, I am surprised that Winchester isn't telling folks that just as Ruger does in their M77. In Otteson's book "The Bolt Action" he describes in detail the process Winchester developed to attach the handle to the bolt. I have never heard any other source mention that at some point they started using a true one piece bolt. I just looked on their webpage for 2021 models where they go into some detail describing the M70 and there's no mention of it.

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I can't speak why it isn't being advertised, but it has all the earmarks of a one-piece design. I don't see any indication that the handle is brazed on. The casting line from the handle to the bolt body meets perfectly on all four or my Portuguese M70s, and there is no indication of any brazing material overflow at all on any of them. Even some of the tiny casting dimples cross the the "joints" indicating the bolt and handle were cast as one piece.

Brazing material overflow, to some degree, is almost inevitable and leaves tell-tale "gold" lines at the joints between the brazed together part. That overflow won't accept bluing. Here's a view examples from some of my 700 with brazed handles.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I understand that the Connecticut M70 classics reintroduced in 1992, and the M70s produced at the FN plant in SC, had brazed bolt handles. But it appears to have been dispensed with with production at Brownings Viana, Portugal plant, which, in olden days, produced Mausers.

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IIRC, it was a spline connection, and sometimes the spline would let go, allowing the handle to slip. The spot-weld was to prevent that. Could have been more than one method used too.

I think I’ll call just to satisfy my curiosity.


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Okay, according to the tech I spoke with, current models are one-piece, “just like the pre-64s”.

The website states the action is forged, another good thing.

I think we can (or I can anyway) stop mourning the Montana Rifle Co.


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Originally Posted by Pappy348
IIRC, it was a spline connection, and sometimes the spline would let go, allowing the handle to slip. The spot-weld was to prevent that. Could have been more than one method used too.

I think I’ll call just to satisfy my curiosity.


I believe they had a silver washer put in and the part heated so the washer would melt into the joint. I had one that had to go back to browning to fix that issue. It was NIB, when it was purchased and Browning fixed at NC.

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Pappy, I had read they are currently drop forged. Whether or not that's correct, I don't know.

Last edited by 10Glocks; 08/03/21.
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10Glocks,

If I rqemember correctly, BACO "Portuguese" rifles m70 rifles. are ASSEMBLED in Portugal. The metal work (barrel, action) is MADE at the FN plant in South Carolina-USA.

I just don't know if the BACO-era m70 bolt design changed (if changed at all) when assembly was moved from South Carolina to Portugal. The bolt is not MADE in Portugal, but at the FN/BACO-SouthCarolina.

A true "one-piece bolt" has the bolt handle , body, and lugs made from one contiguous piece of material.
Based on a picture above, the bolt handle has a 'pock-marked" surface, while the holt body is "smooth.". To me, this indicate two parts-made separately ( and perhaps by different processes, certainly to different finish quality standards). I am not sure if that picture was showing a "post-2007/BACO m70" bolt, or a "post-64, pre-BACO/pre-2007" bolt. The write up was not 100% clear on the era of the pictured "pock marked bolt handled" bolt.

Personally, I need more proof or evidence that the BACO-era Win m70 bolt body and handle are made from a single, contiguous piece of steel, whether a BACO-South Carolina made/finished bolt ( ~2007-2012 mfg), or BACO-South Carolina made/Potugal assembled bolt (~2013-present).

FWIW, the Howa 1500 bolt handle and body are machined from one contiguous piece of steel.







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It's is very clearly a one piece bolt. Pappy contacted Winchester and confirmed it and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Edit: and I just called them as well and confirmed that the Portuguese guns have a one piece bolt.

If Ruger and some of the other makers can do it, it shouldn't be that surprising.

Last edited by 10Glocks; 08/05/21.
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Have the BACO-era ( FN mfg , ~2007- present) M 70 bolts ALWAYS been one-piece? If not, when did the switch happen?


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I don't know when it changed. I understand the post-64s were two piece, as well as ther 1992 classics. It went back to a one piece sometime when the traditional M70s were made, either in SC or Portugal.

Here's photos of some of the boltsa from my other Portuguese M70s.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Clearly, the handles and bolt bodies are one piece.

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Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by ruffedgrouse
And a lot of that is based on my hunts in wilderness settings where reliability is really what you want more that anything else. So the one piece bolt and...


And I forgot to mention, (if by one piece you mean bolt body and handle made out of one piece), the new M70 have one piece bolts, too. I think post-64 push feeds use a handle that was bronze-brazed on like the Remington 700 that influenced it, as well as perhaps the classics and FN SC made guns. But the M70s coming out of Portugal use one piece bolts and handles.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The pictures clearly show a brazed on bolt handle. Notice that the bolt handle/collar are cast slightly rough and the bolt body is smooth.
I don't care what customer service says.
FWIW the Winchester method of brazing is much superior to Remington's. The bolt collar is knurled and pressed onto the body with a copper washer. The whole works is then heated in an induction furnace to join the pieces together. They have failed, but very rarely

Last edited by BWalker; 08/05/21.
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The Portugal guns actions are still made by FN in South Carolina. They are assembled on Portugal on Portugese made stocks.
IMO they are easily much better than the Model 70 classics. Even the 5 digit guns.
The old style trigger has always sucked and I have had several that were worked over.

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