Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Rusty Powder? IMR 4198

IMR 4198 - I just dumped some into the hopper for my powder measure and a rust colored cloud came from it. Powder is over 15yrs old. Didn't know gun powder rusted. Before I throw it out I thought I'd ask. What am I dealing with?

Thanks
Jim

Fertilizer

You are dealing with trouble. It is decomposing and I would dump it on my lawn to get rid of it if it was me.

Had the same thing come up in an old keg of 4831 and emailed Hodgdon about it. Got a response at 6:30 the next morning from a gentleman that had been working there for about 40 years. He told me to get the keg outside and fill it up with water ASAP! After having quite a long correspondence with him, I found out why he interrupted his morning cup of coffee (he usually perused his emails at the kitchen table first thing in the morning) to respond so quickly. Powder decomposing like that can spontaneously combust and burn a house down.

He told me some interesting stories about cases where it had happened over the years. Scary stories. My powder was in an old metal can that had maybe 20-25 lbs remaining and likely could have gotten quite exciting had it caught fire. I don't know what the probability of spontaneous combustion is, but I have enough powder that even a one lb can lighting up would be VERY bad. I have since found the same issue in a jug of AA3100 and had to dispose of it as well. I am cheap enough that the loss of that much powder stung like the devil, but I wouldn't have slept well had I not dumped them.

YES ^^^^^

I’ve had 2 cans of 1 lb powders have Red Dust.
Dump in yard or flower bed. No problems.

Jerry

Good friend of ours was finally getting rid of her late husband's stuff. Lots of it. Some reloading gear in a tool box. There was three metal cans of powder. One of them had rusted to a point where it was a pile of loose powder with the top and bottom and lots of rust mixed in. The other two cans were intact, but the insides had rusted quite a bit. I poured some of the powder out and it was full of rust from the cans. Used it to get a burn pile started.

Pulled some of the 223 loads that he had loaded long ago. He had used IMR4350 ??? The powder was all clumped up and greasy appearing. The only components I kept were the actual bullets. Powder, and primed cases got dumped. The bullets, 55 grain Hornady spitzers, were tarnished to hell, but they shoot great.

Yep. Red dust = bad powder. I'm guessing it smells off as well.

Same here on some old 4831 that I got from a friend. He and another friend actually had some (of the same batch) combust. Spread it in the yard IMMEDIATELY!

The red rust is definitely bad...as someone said, its fertilizer now.

But on the same topic Ive got an old can of 4198 that gives me just a little grey dust....which I cant think of as good...

Anybody with experience on the grey dust???

Same powder, 4198, that I had which produced the rusty colored dust. Correlation?

Im sure there is...I'm guessing the grey dust precedes the red rust...

Same here but your question still stands. Who else has made these observations and especially what's the significance? Ingwe, I did fertilize a small portion of the lawn with my rusty dusty.

IMR 4350.
Was gonna load some 300 Win for an elk hunting friend.
He came over, and when I opened his powder the smell was strange.
Poured it out to look, and it was a bit dusty.
He insisted on using it,, I refused.
He got an engineer buddy to investigate, and was also told to ditch it.
I finished his rounds, never again though.

I found the same thing yesterday with a can of IMR-4350. I was pouring some in a container and saw the dust rising up and continued to pour until the container was almost full, about 2/3rds pound. I put it back into the can and the container and funnel had an abundance of the gray residue. My thought was too much graphite but, I don't know for sure. It passed the sniff test.

Dusty to rusty to BUSTY?
My powder, if it gets dusty or rusty it also gets tossed.

Good powder has a little bit of an etherish smell. If it gives dust and smells like acid, it's gone funny and you should turn it into wet fertilizer right now. I sniff (carefully) every time I open any powder container.

Over 30 yrs ago had couple cans IMR-4831 develop red dust. Affected apparent burn rate - in this case loads chrono'd faster than book suggested. Was unsure so tossed it.

DO NOT DO THIS........but am using up the last of several 1# cans of IMR-4895 from about same time. It's had red dust for at least 30 years. The amount of red dust has not changed over time. Dust sticks to magnet. But it retains an ether smell.

Loaded some this week in .308 and velocity, apparent burn rate, ES, accuracy are exactly what they've been, and should be. No pressure or untoward signs.

How could we raise the rust/dust question with the powder manufacturer? Our observations bring us to our conclusions but what are the technical facts? What exactly is that dust and exactly how does it effect the powder performance if it does?

I recently threw away my fist partial can of powder.......some 4227 that I bought in the early ‘80’s. Dumping that powder initiated some very powerful emotions! 🤬 memtb

They know all about it.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Info-Doc-Smokeless-Powder.pdf

HOW TO CHECK SMOKELESS POWDER FOR DETERIORATION

Although modern smokeless powders contain stabilizers and are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects.
Deteriorating smokeless powders produce an acidic odor and may produce a reddish brown fume. (Don’t confuse this with common solvent odors such as alcohol, ether and acetone.) Dispose of dete- riorating smokeless powders immediately.
Check to make certain that smokeless powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration. Such exposure pro- duces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of heat generated by the reaction, to cause sponta- neous combustion.

WAY TO GO SWIFTY! Thanks for this. Now we know!

After reading these posts, I called and talked to a tech at Alliant about this gray dust and bad powder. He mentioned four ways to tell:1] smell, 2] visual, 3] spread some on a white sheet of paper and move around with finger. If reddish or brown, going bad. If grayish/blackish, it's the graphite is what you see, good. 4] take that powder on the paper outside and ignite. If it burns evenly and is yellow/orange, good. If it sputter burns and isn't a smooth burn, bad. Failure on any one of those four, toss it.

Your the one who asked a dumb question.

rifletomm Thanks for making that affirming contact and reporting the "four ways to tell" bad powder. Good job!

"By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established"

My IMR-4350 passed all 4 of the above test. Too much graphite as I first suspected and I'm glad because it was going to hurt pouring out almost a full pound. I've powder that's gone bad before and it's always been a red dust but, last year I had three quarter pound of H-4831 that I was going to load. When I unscrewed the cap, it looked like orange flour in the can but, under that was the powder kernels. I promptly carried it outside, poured it on the ground, and lit it so I know exactly how it sputters.

Have only seen this in powder packaged in metal containers. Haven't seen it when packaged in plastic containers, has anyone else?

Can't say as I have. Just older metal ones. And only two since '77.

Good to know. Thanks for posting because I too was reluctant to pour a pound of powder on the ground. I actually loaded up a few trial shells with it in my .222 shot them and could tell zero difference between that and 'fresh' powder.

Thanks!

Same here, rusting of the can.


I'm no chemist, but the container plays a big role IMO.

bushrat;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope you're all well up north and it's not quite as smoky for you folks either.

I have had IMR4198, IMR4831 and a bulk powder from Higginson in Ontario which I bought as VV N160 go off on me.

The VV N160 was in a plastic jug - I had 8lb of it and about 6lb went off.

When I checked on rounds loaded with it, it had caked inside the cases and cracked several of the cases off at the shoulder - as in sitting in the MTM boxes - the case necks got brittle and fell off. The bullets were the only salvageable thing from that mess and they were quite caked with verdigris on the bases. It really hurt me because I had to chuck a couple hundred unfired but loaded 6.5x55 cases and about 50 .308 Norma cases that I'd just fire formed from .338 Win Mag. I was a sad camper that day, but happy to have found it before it burned the house down.

The plastic jug was warm to the touch when I discovered it. I was nonplussed to say the very least as it was sitting with a fair bit of other powder.

The IMR4831 was a fresh can, but still a metal one if memory serves. It was just rusty and smelled off.

The IMR4198 was an older can by the price on it, was half gone when someone gave it to me and again was rusty and didn't have that nice "fresh powder" smell to it.

On the other end of life, I still have half a pound of WWII surplus H4831 that is useable, but a has lost a wee bit of weight. When one weighs the same volume of it along with a like volume of fresher H4831, it was a tad lighter so would be a tad hotter I'm thinking.

Anyways, hope that helped someone out there and was useful.

Dwayne

Rust dust means bad powder. DO NOT use it for loading. Fertilizer has been mentioned and that is a good use for it.

Good Morning Sir:

You said above ^^^
"The plastic jug was warm to the touch when I discovered it. I was nonplussed to say the very least as it was sitting with a fair bit of other powder."

I hope you have a great day - even tho you have complicated mine

Now I need to go thru my stash and TOUCH each container, I have metal & plastic ones.

As I said earlier, I've had 2 one pounders go bad (red) but haven't ever felt a warm container.

Seriously -- thank you. BSTS
Better Safe Than Sorry


Jerry

Lawn.

If you have any ammo loaded with that powder I suggest to break it down.I ran into some powder that I had for a couple of years and I noticed it had been recalled.The powder worked great,but when it went bad,it went bad quick.It always seemed to have a little strong odor even when I first got it,but my groups where always great and the velocities were consistent.It was right about the time I saw the recall notice,I got a red dust cloud when I opened the lid.I also noticed some sweating on the outside of the container.I took it outside and dumped it as well as watering it down.I broke all the ammo down that I had loaded with the powder.It didn't look too bad,but I did notice the base of the bullets were starting to turn a little blueish green.A couple of months later I found three that I missed while I was at the range.I decided to just shoot them instead of taking them home and breaking them down.I fired one round and I had a hard bolt extraction.I looked at the headstamp on the base and it was smeared.I broke down the other two when I got home and the powder was damp and clumpy.Bad powder is nothing to mess with.In over fifty years,this was the first experience with bad powder.Here is a couple of photos of the two I broke down.

Exactly. I ran into an old can of imr 4350 last month that suffered from red dust disease. I told my boss it was bad, but he decided to buy it anyway. It was an easy pass for me. Lawn fertilizer at best

I just bought an old can of 4198 yesterday. I guess i better go and check it!!

Buy yourself a laser thermometer gun. They are handy for many uses.

Well, actually we already have one.
Hadn't thot about "shooting" powder cans with it.


Jerry

you might have a storage powder area problem also ?

A friend threw away some bad 4895 into a plastic garbage can some years ago. I went to visit him and noticed the can was all melted looking and asked him if he had got it too close to the barbeque? He didn't know what I was talking about so I showed him. We got the water hose, removed the lid, and put the fire out. The powder had under gone spontaneous combustion in the hot August heat. So it can/will happen!

Recently acquired a can of DuPont 4198, yellow can. Passed all the tests and performed as it should in my 45-70 loads. Anyone know a timeline for the DuPont yellow can 4198?

Is the rust color coming from the deteriorating powder or from rust on the surface of the interior metal of the can - and does it matter?

I threw out about five pounds of IMR4895 years ago because of this problem. I don't know how old they were.

Here's what concerns me. I have some partial containers of various powders. Used for working up loads and then never needed that type again. Should I worry about spontaneous combustion? Should I open each can and inspect them once in awhile?

And what about powder loaded into cartridges. I have some 30-06 cartridges loaded with IMR4895 in 1961.

If you want the old cans for a DISPLAY, get rid of the powder. Or load and shoot it up SOON if it's still ethery and "normal." I live in the Northwest so I have some good vintage stuff still, but I have dumped a few other cans and put the empties on another shelf. Self-preservation, I guess. But when in doubt, even now, it's smarter to spread it out -- on the lawn, or garden, your pick.