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Originally Posted by Shadow
Great Willto,

More power to you for hunting with primitive weapons, sporting primitive optics. They have muzzle loader only hunting seasons in most states. Maybe in a few years they will have also have a Luddite Leupold Only Hunting Season just for good old boys like you.

I don't usually make fun of somebodies gun/optics choices, but your ill-informed rant was more than a bit [bleep] stupid....


Eh, you are typical of the gong banger douchebags. Run along now and whack off while looking at a photo of Carlos Hathcock. Maybe you can find a hooker one day that you can pay to call you White Feather while you do her in the back of your Mercury Tracer. LOL!

I'll just keep killing deer.

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Originally Posted by Willto
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I know his style is rough and unforgiving, but when it comes to shooting he is worth listening to...in the case of a forum he is worth reading.


Stick is never worth listening to. He posts pure gibberish. His posts read like they were written by a retarded 9 year old that has been hit in the head with a shovel. Never was an ignore feature more properly and satisfyingly used than the day I put him on it.

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I noticed that in the 18 years I've been here - I've learned the least from those that bitch the most about Larry's posts.

The only learning opportunity Larry could offer would be to as a case study to a group of med school students thinking of becoming psychiatrists. LOL!

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For those that have Leupolds that have worked for years have you ever tried adjusting them to see if they track and go back to zero?


Why would I? All of them that I own were easy to sight in and have consistently held zero ever since. I have had zero reason to fool with them again. I hunt deer with my rifles and typically never have to take a shot father than 250 yards. I don't sit in a field trying to ricochet bullets off a metal gong 1000 yards away. If doing that gives you a stiffy then god bless but I have zero interest in it. Therefore I have little use for a scope designed primarily for that one specific activity.

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Now there are tons of better scopes on the market,


Depends on what you want a scope for. Are there scopes better suited for the long range gong clanging crowd that go home and jerk off while reading books about Carlos Hathcock? Sure, but they also weight 5 pounds, have 4 inch turrent knobs and look like you mounted the Hubble telescope on top of your rifle. Are those scopes better for what I need as a deer hunter in Alabama. No. Metal gongs stay out all day in broad daylight. Big bucks in Alabama move mostly at dawn and dusk.

I have no need of "Doping" my shots. So micro accurate repeatable click adjustments mean nothing to me. Nor does my scope need any kind of zero stop system so I can quickly dial it back to zero after "Doping" my shot. I don't need a ballistic plex reticle or a first focal plane scope to better help me make 700 yards shots. Because there aren't going to be any 700 yard shots. I have never had any trouble getting within 300 yards of deer or wild hogs. If you have to take 700 yard shots at such animals then you may or may not be a fine shot but your hunting skills suck.

I need a scope that holds zero, doesn't fog up, and gives me good low light performance. Metal gongs stay out in the open all day. Big bucks in Alabama move mostly at dawn and dusk.


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Better low light performance is BS, more like who turned off the lights


This is really bullchit. I own Zeiss Conquests, Swarovskis, Nikons, Leupolds and even one Schmidt and Bender Classic. And here is what I have learned. Some of those scopes are marginally better in low light than some of the Leupold VX 3's I own but guess what? The ones that are better cost twice as much as the Leupolds. And I can take any one of the VX 3's that I paid about 400 dollars for and see to shoot until the end of legal shooting light. If you are going to keep hunting beyond legal light then you might as well really save some cash and just buy a 50 dollar Bushnell and a 25 dollar Q-beam because you are officially night hunting at that point.

And that is where Leupolds still shine. Not that they are the end all be all but, for their price point they are good glass with good low light performance. I have looked through a SWFA SS 10x42 and not only is it not as good in low light but you would lose that micro hair thin reticle on the one I looked through the second the sun slipped behind the trees where I hunt. As for reliability I currently own 6 Leupolds from a few older Vari x III's to some current Vx 3i's and have never had a whisp of a problem with any of them.

So buy what ever best suits your shooting needs and I will do the same. But knock off this elitist horse chit of pissing on any scope that isn't designed for gong hunting by the wanna-be sniper crowd.







Believe me, I hate reposting long quotes like this, but in this case, Willto has it 100% right.

All of my scopes do exactly what they are supposed to do. I don't twist knobs for each shot.


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Originally Posted by Willto
Originally Posted by Shadow
Great Willto,

More power to you for hunting with primitive weapons, sporting primitive optics. They have muzzle loader only hunting seasons in most states. Maybe in a few years they will have also have a Luddite Leupold Only Hunting Season just for good old boys like you.

I don't usually make fun of somebodies gun/optics choices, but your ill-informed rant was more than a bit [bleep] stupid....


Eh, you are typical of the gong banger douchebags. Run along now and whack off while looking at a photo of Carlos Hathcock. Maybe you can find a hooker one day that you can pay to call you White Feather while you do her in the back of your Mercury Tracer. LOL!

I'll just keep killing deer.


Nobody really cares about you killing deer or not. It's about both purpose and utilizing the best innovations possible to make things work, that you can never do, with your chosen equipment. If you never try, you'll never know what is and isn't possible.

I never took a long range shot at steel or game until about 2005/06. Yes, I shot an antelope and mule at just a little over 300 yds way back in 1976, but my rifle then was a 270 was sighted 3" high at 100 yds, and holding a bit high it worked just fine. Every game shot after was always well short of 200 yds, and my closest shot on deer was delivered at 25 feet with a scoped 45-70. I don't turn turrets when I don't have to, and anybody thinks that we do is a real douchebag & knows nothing.

After 2006 I got heavily into LR Competitions. Shooting in excess of 1,000 yds, on some days in what is now called PRS Competitions. I learned the value of turrets, MIL reticles and by shooting targets as close a 7 yds and as far as 1,200 yds. with big powerful rifle scopes. Shooting 5 Multiple targets at 5 different ranges is also an illuminating experience. As is shooting at 12" target over a corn field 400 yds away, where you can only see the top 4 inches of a steel target. Hint: aim for the top and let your bullet drop right smack in the middle of what you can't see, but the ping of hit will register loudly.

Yes, we even shot moving targets at some venues. There is nothing like starting a competition with a cold bore shot (no warm ups allowed) at an unknown range somewhere north of 500 yds, ranging not with a laser, but only using your reticle, under a time limit, to realize your limitations on live game on a frosty morning. My avatar is me, in the Red Hat, shooting at a 450 yd target, at a competition back in 2009. The scorer is sitting to my right. Rifle was 308 Winchester, shooting 155 grain Sierra Palma handloads at just over 2,900 FPS, with a stout load of Varget. The Scope was a IOR 3-18x42mm my first FFP and MIL/MIL scope. It was a dog, but it worked after a fashion.

Later I gravitated and built several 7mm-08's, 6.5 Lapua's, and a single 260 Remington, as the limitations of the 308 became apparent as ranges increased.

Some things make, like competition, or when you have unlimited venues like Big Stick, shooting at range helps make you a better shot and a better hunter, and reinforces your limitations. I've not bought a scope since that did not have adjustable turrets plus some kind of ranging reticle (BDC, MOA or MIL I speak all those fluently).

The scopes I've bought over the last 12 years range from a 1-4x24 (SWFA) to a 3.2-17x44mm (US Optics). All are illuminated, all have turrets, most lockable. In between those I've had several other 1-6x24mm's (SWFA and Swampfox Arrowhead, & Vortex PST 2), SWFA fixed 6x, SWFA 3-9x42, Bushnell LRHS 3-12x44, Steiner 3-15x50mm, and one heavy SOB a Vortex Razor 3-18x50mm)

Some went on competition rifles and some went on pure hunting rigs, and some are for Home Defense Rifles. Surely you don't object to home defense?

Do I shoot at game only at long range? No. I love a good 1-6x24 on a 7mm-08 or 358 Winchester for woods hunting, and if I decide to hunt a wood lot, or powerline right of way or a farmer field (with permission) I can rock that little 1-6x24mm as far as the rifle I'm using can hit effectively.

I bought nothing but Bausch & Lombs, Leupolds, Bushnell Scope Chief's, from 1973 thru 2005. After that, I really learned how to shoot and hunt effectively at maximum ranges my skill and my equipment allows . It' makes zero sense to carry a rifle that can help you make clean 400 or 500 yd killing shots on game, and then handicap it with a scope that's only good for shots to about 300 yds.

Don't knock what you've never tried. Because it'll be you looking much like the douchebag......


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I want rugged scopes which will hold zero and I want clean, readily visible, simple reticles. However, I see no reason not to expect the scope to adjust precisely and repeatably. Leupold could easily build that scope but they just won't do it. Likewise, SWFA (Tasco) could produce a rugged 6x with a simple reticle but they won't do that either. GD

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Originally Posted by greydog
I want rugged scopes which will hold zero and I want clean, readily visible, simple reticles. However, I see no reason not to expect the scope to adjust precisely and repeatably. Leupold could easily build that scope but they just won't do it. Likewise, SWFA (Tasco) could produce a rugged 6x with a simple reticle but they won't do that either. GD


I feel your pain. Tasco by the way, originally spec'd the scope to sell to the military and had it built in Japan. SWFA bought the rights, and continued to have them built in Japan. So it's now all SWFA's baby, they own it. Tasco never built it they just ordered some custom items off a menu so to speak.

As far as reticle go, the Mil Quad is pretty simple. I guess you'd rather a German #4, and so would I, if they'd make one with an illuminated center cross hair or circle Dot.

But then were talking a higher price point, and then they might lose more sales than they gain. The Gucci principal doesn't always work ( meaning it's easier to sell one $400 pair of shoes , than eight $50.00 pairs of shoes) in the market place. And scope buyers are as fickle a bunch as any anywhere.

Just one, Oh, snap failure, and a scope is poor mouthed to hell and back. Cheaper scopes invite failures, but what's unique about the SWFA SS line they are both cheap and rugged. Even their Top of the Line 5-20x50mm was pretty cheap when it first came out. They have not tried to improve it, unfortunately and some models (but not all) of Vortex, Bushnell, Athlon and Swampfox, for example are giving SWFA's cheap but rugged 5-20x50mm a run for their money.

Nobody beats their SWFA Classic's though, the 6x is just outstanding from a price/ feature / delivering value standpoint.....

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that you can never do, with your chosen equipment

I do everything I want or need to do with the equipment I have. Why in the flying f@#k would I switch to a SWFA scope that has worse glass, worse light transmission and a worse reticle for low light shooting just because it has some features that make it desirable to people who like to knock flecks of paint off a gong in broad daylight at longer ranges? An activity which I have zero desire to do. If you look through that renamed Tasco that you are so fond of at last shooting light and you can't see the hair like reticle or see the buck standing 200 yards away because of it's chitty light transmission then how accurate the click adjustments on your re-branded Tasco are fade to utter insignificance. You are literally trying to convince me that I should switch to a scope that would be worse for what I use a scope for because it's better for one of your hobbies that I don't want to do. LOL! What sense does that make?

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It' makes zero sense to carry a rifle that can help you make clean 400 or 500 yd killing shots on game, and then handicap it with a scope that's only good for shots to about 300 yds.


There is no where you can even see more than 300 yards on the land I hunt. So please explain the crucial need to expand my killing range out to 500 yards. Again you arrogantly assume that what works best in your mind must be what's best for everyone. Get the f$%k over yourself.

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Don't knock what you've never tried. Because it'll be you looking much like the douchebag......


What are you even talking about? Are you 12 years old? I know it's hard to fathom but some people like myself have no interest in gong hunting. I have never seen a single recipe for metal gong that looked edible. But do tell me what is considered a trophy gong in case I ever want to mount one in my den. LOL!

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Some things make, like competition, or when you have unlimited venues like Big Stick,


Ahhh, this explains a lot. One of Stick's bottom boys. That's what jerked your chain in my first post. I dared to insult your hero. LOL!

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I know this thread is about Leupold Hate, and I do hate Leupolds. I just don't hate those that use them, but I also don't want hate directed back because I don't use them. Nor do I like to called names, because I bang steel on occasion, that most Mr. Magoo's can't even see on a good day.

I hate Leupold's because they once owned the market and just threw it away. I called them Rip Van Leupold, who slept on their laurels and watched it all fade away, as other more innovative companies stole many of their markets.

I once had a long illuminating conversation with a Leupold Technical Rep, in about 2004 about adding Mil / Metric CM type Adjustments to their MK 4 line. He told me Leupold didn't make any scope with Mil / Metric CM adjustment. I pointed out that they made a European line of 30mm scopes all with MIL / CM type adjustments. Well he said that just for Europe as they won't buy many of our scopes if we don't put Metric CM type adjustments on them. The USA doesn't want anything to with matching reticles and adjustments. MIL reticles and MOA adjustment work just fine.

The final straw came in 2005 when they took Premier Reticles over the coals, most of my scopes Leupold had PR reticles of some sort. They were doing the work the Leupold "Custom shop" would not do. They cut the legs right off of that company. And I was done. I bought exactly one more Leupold scope after that, a MK4 Mid range Mil Spec.2.5x8x36mm I wanted for a AR15 DMR clone.

As far as long range hunting, you really need something to measure range, and dials/and or reticle to make such shots very possible. Taking a dozen shots at a 500 yd steel or paper target and connecting with the last 5 does not make you a 500 yd shooter, cold bore in the field when it's cold or inclement is were it at.

A good way to test yourself if you have the time, and the range to do it on, is to take the pie plate test. All you need is a flat stick and 8" aluminum foil pie plate. With a buddy manning a laser range finder place the pie plate at say 300 yds. This has to be a cold bore shot, no warm-ups, no practice shots, just like you would be hunting. Your first shot out the truck.

Now take the shot. You make a hit, your good to go out to that range. Every range trip move the plate another further 50 or 100 yds. If you miss, you go back the last range you hit it. Eventually you'll find out, you as the shooter, your rifle, your scope, and your loads limitations. It might be 350 yds or it might be 500. At least you'll be prepared for the "once in a lifetime" shot that you could or would never take, but you had no confidence in your skill and you never tried to improve on it.

You may never get that long range shot at game, but if one is presented, and you know what your real limitations are, you may just succeed.

You may also be a hunter who says you would never take a shot past X range and has no desire to do so. Fine by me, but don't piss on my shoes because I can and will take those shots that you pass by. Does that mean I'm looking for LR shots at deer or other animals?? No it does not. I'll take shots as they come whether near or far. Near is better cause at 70 year old I don't have to walk so far, but I take the long ones if need be. Because I can....

Have a nice night gents.....


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Originally Posted by Shadow
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
Don't waste you're breath. He thinks nightforce sucks too. 🙄 nothing is as good as a rebadged Tasco...



Since those "rebadged Tasco's" cost 2/3 rds LESS green backs than most Nightforce scopes, and work pretty damn good, Larry (bless his slimy little heart) still has a very valid point about NF suckage. Yes, folks you can buy of three of them there Re-Badged Tasco things for the cost of one little ol' Nighforce. That's redundancy up the ying yang (Cue: scientific terminology)

NF also has terrible reticles choices, always had. They're best by far was the old standard Mil dot in the 2.5-10x32 MM, zero stop MIL/MIL reticle, which of course they discontinued, both scope and reticle as a choice anywhere.

Hey it's your money, and if NF winds your clock, go for it. They are still very rugged scopes even if overpriced. IMHO and YMMV


I’ve owned 4 or 5 of the NXS 2.5-10 compacts in different configurations of 32mm and 42mm. I honestly like the Bushnell Elite 3-12 LRHS better. That’s what I have on most of my rifles now.

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Teaching rifle classes with scope adjustments, the recent Leupold scopes NEVER work right. Never. The impact doesn't move the distance of the adjustment, and the rifle doesn't stay zeroed at the new setting half the time. The only exceptions I've seen were Mark IV and V scopes. I have to explain to people that yes the bought American, but we see this a LOT.

I have no reason to hate Leupold except for their products.

It's unfortunate Big Stick likes SWFA, because their scopes DO track and are cheap. That's a good combo.

Nightforces also track. I like them personally.

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While we’re on the subject, there are 3 things related that I could GAF about:
Cheap SWFA scopes with that funky chicken.
Big Stick’s gibberish.
What scope you use.

Happy Trails


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Fine by me, but don't piss on my shoes because I can and will take those shots that you pass by.


"YOU" are the one trying to chit on other people because they are perfectly satisfied with a set it and forget it Leupold. ME? I don't give a chit what scope you use. If it best suits your needs then great. But I see absolutely nothing on a SWFA/Tasco that I need or that would benefit me in any of my endeavors. I don't need target turrents. I don't need a ballistic plex reticle to shoot out to 300 yards. I have no need to dial my shots. And I'm sure as hell not going to switch to inferior glass with poor light transmission just to get scope options that I have zero use for.

Leupold still makes some of their scopes for people that just use a scope for hunting. Good glass and good lens coatings for light transmission at the particular price point which they are offered. Bravo I say. But you have fun playing CIA sniper with your Tasco, oops I mean SWFA. LOL!

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Originally Posted by Shadow
Great Willto,

More power to you for hunting with primitive weapons, sporting primitive optics. They have muzzle loader only hunting seasons in most states. Maybe in a few years they will have also have a Luddite Leupold Only Hunting Season just for good old boys like you.

I don't usually make fun of somebodies gun/optics choices, but your ill-informed rant was more than a bit [bleep] stupid....


Well, I have to say...you are an ignorant condescending prick.


What is it to you what another man hunts with?


These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Originally Posted by Shadow

...but I take the long ones if need be. Because I can....

Have a nice night gents.....



You don't "need" to take long shots. In fact, you don't "need" to take any shots at all. There is no "need" to hunt unless you're a hunter-gather and have to live off what you kill.

It seems to me two different cultures have arisen. The traditional hunter that , maybe, grew up hunting, was apprenticed into it by and older hunter, maybe a grandpa, whose principal goal is the animal itself, and much less about the weapon that gets them that animal. It's about the tradition, the breakfast before the hunt, the camaraderie, and the sacrifice of an animal's life, etc.

Then there is a newer culture, whose principal aim isn't tradition or the animal. The principal focus is on the equipment that gets them that animal, and the photo op and bragging rights that follow.

I'm not saying there aren't ethical hunters in the second group, nor am I saying that there aren't slobs in the first. But I will say that the second group, to the extent it sees itself as practicing ethical hunting, has been infiltrated by a large segment whose practices suggest otherwise.

Youtube and the various sniper websites are replete with the sort of thing I'm talking about. Hell, even Leupold hosted a video on Youtube of a "great shooter" taking an elk with a marginal caliber at extreme range pretty much just to show that it could be done. There's a 70+ page thread at the Rokslide forum on making the .223 and elk, moose and bear gun. Why? It's the "because I can" mentality. "Should I" never seems to be the question anymore.

So... "...because I can." I can, too. But it doesn't mean I should. And there is certainly no "need" to do so. Especially when an animal's life is at stake. Animals aren't targets upon which I hone my long range shooting skills. I've never taken a shot beyond the range that I couldn't ensure a good chance of hitting the animal where I want to hit him, with enough velocity and energy to expend a bullet and cause fatal trauma. No "need" of mine as been so great as to play craps with an animal's life.

Like I said, two different cultures. Both legal, I guess. But they tend to mix like oil and water.

Robert Raurk said, "...if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal’s terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day." That's my goal. I never want to leave a field more concerned about the tracking of my scope that I am about the animal that gave its life, or wandered off gut shot so far from me that I couldn't find it.

Boy this thread is a cluster fhuqck. I like Leupolds. Here's what I hate: red wine, The Beatles, and tattoos plastered all over otherwise attractive women.

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You don't "need" to take long shots. In fact, you don't "need" to take any shots at all.


Amen. There is a current segment of shooters (I don't call them hunters) who are basically just using game animals as live long range pop up targets. And if it all goes well then they run to the internet to brag about the shot or maybe even post video on youtube. Of course you will never see or hear about the long shots that blew a deers lower leg off. Nope, you will never see the video of that boogered up and lost animal. Why if that kind of information got out it would seriously damage the sniper cred of those tech savy people "IN THE KNOW" who refer to people like me as, what was the word again, oh yeah Luddites. And why? Because I am consistently capable of getting within 300 yards of the animals I hunt so that I don't need a 2 foot long, 4 pound scope with 3 inch target turrents, a ballistic plex reticle, and a friend with a spotter scope to help me dope my shots. All the deer and hogs I have shot sure seemed dead to me but apparently I have been doing it wrong all this time. What I should have done is changed scopes and backed off to 700 yards to see if I could still hit the deer. Then I would be a real man.

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Personally, I don't see the challenge in shooting big game well outside their range of perception. Dinging a plate at 1,000 yards is a technical skill. Getting well within the perceptive range of an animal, defeating that perception, and taking it cleanly in a fair manner is an art.

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Big difference between hunters and shooters… Some can do both but not many.

Carry on…

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Doesn’t matter to me how someone takes their game as long as they obey the law and follow up on all their shots to be certain nothing was wounded. Failing either makes them a putz. Requiring follow up, similar to rules about meat recovery, might discourage some potshots from the unworthy.

Getting inside “the circle” of a critter is enjoyable to me, but that’s a personal choice, and pretty much what the terrain I hunt requires anyway.


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Nobody hates a hunter like another hunter....


Decades of voting for the lesser of two evils has gotten us just that.....
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Originally Posted by 10Glocks
...You don't "need" to take long shots. In fact, you don't "need" to take any shots at all. There is no "need" to hunt unless you're a hunter-gather and have to live off what you kill.

It seems to me two different cultures have arisen. The traditional hunter that , maybe, grew up hunting, was apprenticed into it by and older hunter, maybe a grandpa, whose principal goal is the animal itself, and much less about the weapon that gets them that animal. It's about the tradition, the breakfast before the hunt, the camaraderie, and the sacrifice of an animal's life, etc.

Then there is a newer culture, whose principal aim isn't tradition or the animal. The principal focus is on the equipment that gets them that animal, and the photo op and bragging rights that follow.

I'm not saying there aren't ethical hunters in the second group, nor am I saying that there aren't slobs in the first. But I will say that the second group, to the extent it sees itself as practicing ethical hunting, has been infiltrated by a large segment whose practices suggest otherwise.

Youtube and the various sniper websites are replete with the sort of thing I'm talking about. Hell, even Leupold hosted a video on Youtube of a "great shooter" taking an elk with a marginal caliber at extreme range pretty much just to show that it could be done. There's a 70+ page thread at the Rokslide forum on making the .223 and elk, moose and bear gun. Why? It's the "because I can" mentality. "Should I" never seems to be the question anymore.

So... "...because I can." I can, too. But it doesn't mean I should. And there is certainly no "need" to do so. Especially when an animal's life is at stake. Animals aren't targets upon which I hone my long range shooting skills. I've never taken a shot beyond the range that I couldn't ensure a good chance of hitting the animal where I want to hit him, with enough velocity and energy to expend a bullet and cause fatal trauma. No "need" of mine as been so great as to play craps with an animal's life.

Like I said, two different cultures. Both legal, I guess. But they tend to mix like oil and water.

Robert Raurk said, "...if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal’s terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day." That's my goal. I never want to leave a field more concerned about the tracking of my scope that I am about the animal that gave its life, or wandered off gut shot so far from me that I couldn't find it...

Good post.


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Joined: Jun 2009
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It’s too bad that Leupold aesthetics and SWFA reliability can’t be combined in one unit. I like the looks of the classic Leupold’s but hate the sight in process and unreliability, hate the look of the SWFA’s but love the reliability.


"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
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