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How weight placement affects center of gravity/mass.

There are more factors that come into play when it comes to packing, from external vs internal, hip belts, suspension, etc.
This video gives a basic demonstration of how meat packers, (as opposed to climbers), may want to load the heaviest weight...IF the pack isn't full of game.
My experience agrees with this man's explanation in general with my external packs.
If anyone disagrees, please explain your reasoning.

Happy Camper

Last edited by Happy_Camper; 08/25/21.
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I disagree. The higher the weight the higher your COG, reducing your stability.

Keep heavier items closer to your body.

Example. Strap an extension ladder to your back vertically or horizontally. Which is easier to control?

Last edited by Nashville; 08/25/21.

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Interesting demo. I know that when I hiked the AT, 2103 miles at the time, I tried loading my pack every way I could to equalize the load. I found that by putting lighter stuff on the bottom, my heaviest stuff in the middle and the rest on top, my pack seemed lighter. I know that is not scientific, but even today, through hikers say they that they pack the same way for comfort.

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Thats the most common recommendation for proper packing.


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Originally Posted by ro1459
Interesting demo. I know that when I hiked the AT, 2103 miles at the time, I tried loading my pack every way I could to equalize the load. I found that by putting lighter stuff on the bottom, my heaviest stuff in the middle and the rest on top, my pack seemed lighter. I know that is not scientific, but even today, through hikers say they that they pack the same way for comfort.

What was your average base weight and pack?

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Originally Posted by Nashville
I disagree. The higher the weight the higher your COG, reducing your stability.

Keep heavier items closer to your body.

Example. Strap an extension ladder to your back vertically or horizontally. Which is easier to control?


I carry ladders both ways, but never strapped one on my back.
For that I am going to ask the only two guys that I know have done that. Shug carries ladders with his pack.


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I agree. I always load my bag with my lightest items on the bottom and heaviest in the top of my bag. I don’t load heavy items in the lid however I keep them about shoulder height. For me it makes the pack seem lighter and easier to maneuver. With heavy items in the bottom of your bag it seems the pack wants to pull you down or backwards at times especially up hill.

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Originally Posted by 805
I agree. I always load my bag with my lightest items on the bottom and heaviest in the top of my bag. I don’t load heavy items in the lid however I keep them about shoulder height. For me it makes the pack seem lighter and easier to maneuver. With heavy items in the bottom of your bag it seems the pack wants to pull you down or backwards at times especially up hill.

I want to start by saying that this thread is open ended as there are variables. I like the diagram since it shows in an exaggeration how one must lean forward depending upon the placement of the most mass. Everything has tradeoffs, so the guy who is climbing wants more stability. Lower might be better in situations where there's no clear trail and lots of downed trees and low limbs.
I normally hike clear trails and use an external frame pack that allows an upright stance and gate. Like you said, I pack that way too. If I get a whitetail or a load of walnuts, it's more practical to load the main bag and use the pockets for gear.
If backpacking, placement goes back to heavy food and fuel high. The stiff frame and suspension makes the weight go on the pelvic girdle.

Last edited by Happy_Camper; 08/27/21.
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Originally Posted by Nashville
I disagree. The higher the weight the higher your COG, reducing your stability.

Keep heavier items closer to your body.

Example. Strap an extension ladder to your back vertically or horizontally. Which is easier to control?


That's The trade off. At least one of them.
The center for men is around the waist and women a little lower at the hips. With addition of a pack, weight, need for stability, type of pack are variables that change.
Many prefer internal packs, but I have gone back to using a well designed external that allows me a more upright posture.
Sometimes it's a day hike with a waist belt or without.
A soft ultralight that would not be designed for heavy loads might be what someone would use on a section hike or even scrabbling up a mountain. I would prefer stability for climbing, and ducking under limbs.

I think it all depends what your needs are..
If we look at videos of ladies hauling water in a poor part of India for example, they carry clay pots/ buckets. Where do they put them?

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It's all BS... the guy would make a good carney shell game operator though. "Low and Close" is the proper way, with the pack laying flat all the heavy items starting from the bottom and as close to the frame as you can get them. Then layer on top of that in layers getting lighter as you go until filling the pack. Water bladder should be outside the pack at the top and above the shoulders, more or less in the position of a pillow would be in. Any really heavy items should be suspended from the waist forward of the center of the legs. Hell, a plumb bob doesn't show you any thing except the point directly below the point its hanging from.

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Originally Posted by Nashville
I disagree. The higher the weight the higher your COG, reducing your stability.

Keep heavier items closer to your body.

Example. Strap an extension ladder to your back vertically or horizontally. Which is easier to control?

Nashville,

I'm with you on this, but honestly the highest and heaviest load I've ever carried was a stack of lumber.

I asked world renowned outdoor enthusiast and lecturer, Steve Climber and this was the response.



😄

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I like the weight high, just like he states. It does have an effect on my center of gravity, but the positives of having the weight higher totally and then some outweigh the negatives. It just "feels" lighter and better, and most certainly has made a difference in how far I can hike with X weight..



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Originally Posted by Greyghost
It's all BS... the guy would make a good carney shell game operator though. "Low and Close" is the proper way, with the pack laying flat all the heavy items starting from the bottom and as close to the frame as you can get them. Then layer on top of that in layers getting lighter as you go until filling the pack. Water bladder should be outside the pack at the top and above the shoulders, more or less in the position of a pillow would be in. Any really heavy items should be suspended from the waist forward of the center of the legs. Hell, a plumb bob doesn't show you any thing except the point directly below the point its hanging from.

Phil

Hey Phil.

Aren't you being a little judgemental about Shug aka Sean Emery?
He demonstrated a ladder in a pack....or a pack on a ladder.
If he carried it horizontally, wouldn't he have a hard time getting between the trees?
Besides, does he look like a carney???

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Originally Posted by T_Inman
I like the weight high, just like he states. It does have an effect on my center of gravity, but the positives of having the weight higher totally and then some outweigh the negatives. It just "feels" lighter and better, and most certainly has made a difference in how far I can hike with X weight..

I've been using an external frame pack and to me that makes a difference. However it's not as sensitive to the load placement as my internals. That said, it has a unique aluminum hip hugger that wraps around and distributes the weight better than others I've used. It's a vintage D-series Jansport.
What kind do you use, T?

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Kifaru duplex frame.



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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Kifaru duplex frame.


I've never tried one on, but seriously considered buying one.
Their frames look are an awesome design and they are completely versatile with the packs available. In fact, I like the modularity concept..I've studied some of their designs.
Whoever is their pack designer has come up with some interesting ideas.
How do you like it?

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I really like it, but honestly haven't tried too many others so can't really compare.

I am at roughly 15 big game pack outs with it. Packs anywhere from 1/2 to about 8 miles, plus a lot of trapping on foot. I have zero complaints about the system. I think I will try attaching the load shelf higher up on the frame to force the meat to ride higher yet and see how I like it. I have had so much weight on it that I couldn't get the belt tight enough to make my hips take the brunt of the weight....and so my shoulders had to take more than they should have and I still didn't have much back/shoulder fatigue. My feet have absolutely ached the next day but my back/shoulders/core felt like a million bucks.

I would have been dying with body aches all over with 1/2 that weight on my old Elberleestock.



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. You picked a top choice after no doubt a lot of research. Lots of guys go through over half a dozen big packs before finding their favorite. You put plenty of milage to know you have it already.
I mulled over a Kifaru, or a Dan McHale and decided to make my own designs. Those guys definitely got it right. I just wanted to implement my own.

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No matter how much weight you pack, if its above the waist all of it is going to be on your back... the only other thing that figures in is leverage, and with that the higher the weight is above your hip the worse it gets. You'll find yourself having to hump over forward just to keep your balance to walk. There's a reason people have from childhood always been taught to kneel or squat with legs apart when picking up a load, and that is to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. It's to save your back.


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Definitely prefer to have weight centered higher. I shoot for between the shoulder blades, but probably rarely achieve that. It makes a huge difference in how far you have to lean forward to balance the weight. I have repacked the same load to raise cg and the results are obvious. Internal frame packs are more sensitive to loading, but can also get weight closer to your back than an external, generally speaking.

There are some rather funny statements in this thread.

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Originally Posted by cwh2
Definitely prefer to have weight centered higher. I shoot for between the shoulder blades, but probably rarely achieve that. It makes a huge difference in how far you have to lean forward to balance the weight. I have repacked the same load to raise cg and the results are obvious. Internal frame packs are more sensitive to loading, but can also get weight closer to your back than an external, generally speaking.

There are some rather funny statements in this thread.


Was that Steve Climber's statements?
The world's leading outdoor enthusiast.
😁


BTW, your experience mirror's mine. If I'm carrying much water, ie weight, I prefer my external frame for the benefit of an upright posture on the hill trails. If I just need to pack out a big load of food, nuts or meat, then I just fill the whole bag and cinch it down. The placement isn't the issue then, just my cardio. Most of the time it's not very far in those cases.

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I prefer the weight in close to my back to minimize how much I have to bend / lean to balance it. Beyond that, how high or low it is is not that important.

When I'm backpacking, I try to keep the load light enough that load height isn't a practical concern. The bigger thing is keeping everything inside the pack so it is not snagging on brush, trees, etc I'm plowing through.

Weight is more of an issue when hauling out meat but for me, getting the most weight onto the pack per load to limit the number of loads is more important than comfort. I'm already going to be stove up and hurtin' the next day, not even a significant difference of degree. However, unlike some people, where I'm bringing meat out of is often steep but not dangerous, it's steep hillsides. I stay away from the bluffs and drop-offs so the worst I really have to worry about is stepping on a slick stick and landing on my ass, not falling off of something that will kill me.

Tom


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Originally Posted by T_O_M
I prefer the weight in close to my back to minimize how much I have to bend / lean to balance it. Beyond that, how high or low it is is not that important.

When I'm backpacking, I try to keep the load light enough that load height isn't a practical concern. The bigger thing is keeping everything inside the pack so it is not snagging on brush, trees, etc I'm plowing through.

Weight is more of an issue when hauling out meat but for me, getting the most weight onto the pack per load to limit the number of loads is more important than comfort. I'm already going to be stove up and hurtin' the next day, not even a significant difference of degree. However, unlike some people, where I'm bringing meat out of is often steep but not dangerous, it's steep hillsides. I stay away from the bluffs and drop-offs so the worst I really have to worry about is stepping on a slick stick and landing on my ass, not falling off of something that will kill me.

Tom


Same here.
When I construct my large packs they will follow the design you describe. Instead of a single bottom shelf, they will have an adjustable shelf that cinches the heaviest part of the load, meat or water, high and tight to the frame. The heaviest part of the load will be suspended from the frame at the shoulders. More can be stacked on top if necessary, but won't interfere with my head when looking up.

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I much prefer weight to be high in a back pack if I am hiking a maintained trail or decent ground. On rough steep ground, scrabble ledges etc. I’d rather have it centered at lower back and as tight to my back as possible. For that matter, in both cases want it close to my back.

This is one of those topics that is not right or wrong, merely what feels best and carries best for each individual, for whatever reason of anatomy or sensory preference. It is always interesting that what feels good to one person may feel awkward or unbalanced etc. to someone else.

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Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Originally Posted by cwh2
Definitely prefer to have weight centered higher. I shoot for between the shoulder blades, but probably rarely achieve that. It makes a huge difference in how far you have to lean forward to balance the weight. I have repacked the same load to raise cg and the results are obvious. Internal frame packs are more sensitive to loading, but can also get weight closer to your back than an external, generally speaking.

There are some rather funny statements in this thread.


Was that Steve Climber's statements?
The world's leading outdoor enthusiast.


Hey happy, how does one become the world's leading outdoor enthusiast? Is it the knowledge and skills, or the enthusiasm?

If it's the enthusiasm, I think our last retriever was the world's greatest.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Originally Posted by cwh2
Definitely prefer to have weight centered higher. I shoot for between the shoulder blades, but probably rarely achieve that. It makes a huge difference in how far you have to lean forward to balance the weight. I have repacked the same load to raise cg and the results are obvious. Internal frame packs are more sensitive to loading, but can also get weight closer to your back than an external, generally speaking.

There are some rather funny statements in this thread.


Was that Steve Climber's statements?
The world's leading outdoor enthusiast.


Hey happy, how does one become the world's leading outdoor enthusiast? Is it the knowledge and skills, or the enthusiasm?

If it's the enthusiasm, I think our last retriever was the world's greatest.

The funny part of Slappy’s post to CWH2 was this:

Quote
BTW, your experience mirror's mine
.

Great humor there, the inappropriate apostrophe aside.


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Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Originally Posted by cwh2
Definitely prefer to have weight centered higher. I shoot for between the shoulder blades, but probably rarely achieve that. It makes a huge difference in how far you have to lean forward to balance the weight. I have repacked the same load to raise cg and the results are obvious. Internal frame packs are more sensitive to loading, but can also get weight closer to your back than an external, generally speaking.

There are some rather funny statements in this thread.


Was that Steve Climber's statements?
The world's leading outdoor enthusiast.


Hey happy, how does one become the world's leading outdoor enthusiast? Is it the knowledge and skills, or the enthusiasm?

If it's the enthusiasm, I think our last retriever was the world's greatest.

The funny part of Slappy’s post to CWH2 was this:

Quote
BTW, your experience mirror's mine
.

Great humor there, the inappropriate apostrophe aside.



Yep, that cwh is such a couch potato, I don't believe he's ever been backpacking.



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Elk quarters and deer halves on an external frame. I put the weight at low as possible. Most weight is supported by hips.

Had a hunting partner with the opposite thought. He literally suspended a quarter from the top rung of his frame and it was also free to swing to either side. He eventually made camp, but was down for two days, enough for me to bring in the balance.

Last edited by 1minute; 09/27/21.

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Originally Posted by 1minute
Elk quarters and deer halves on an external frame. I put the weight at low as possible. Most weight is supported by hips.

Had a hunting partner with the opposite thought. He literally suspended a quarter from the top rung of his frame and it was also free to swing to either side. He eventually made camp, but was down for two days, enough for me to bring in the balance.

Compression straps or bungee cords are needed to keep a load secure. If it's swinging, he'll use more energy every step. I'd guess he'd use his back for stability and balance.
A good suspension properly adjusted should put that weight on the hips through the frame and hip belt transfer. With a large load you are talking about, I'd guess that you are just filling whatever space is available from bottom to top, right?
I don't think about high low pack out if I fill the bag as it's both.

I like externals. They seem less dependent on load placement when the suspension is good.
Did you have to round the back to counter the weight or were you more upright?

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Does anyone who actually has carried loads in a backpack need to be told how to pack it?

Do you pack your load the same way for hiking trails as you do ski mountaineering?

Is packing out an Elk more fun when climbing or descending steep ground?

I think that slappy is the CF's leading outdoor enthusiast and will show us the cool mods he has done on his Jansport external frame packs. He is light years ahead of Dana Gleason and Patrick Smith.

Whoever invented load lifter straps is my hero.


mike r


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Originally Posted by lvmiker

Is packing out an Elk more fun when climbing or descending steep ground?



Ha, trick question.



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Originally Posted by lvmiker


Whoever invented load lifter straps is my hero.


mike r



It’s amazing how well they work on a properly setup and adjusted pack. Some packs have “load lifters” but they are useless.

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Originally Posted by lvmiker
Does anyone who actually has carried loads in a backpack need to be told how to pack it?

Do you pack your load the same way for hiking trails as you do ski mountaineering?

Is packing out an Elk more fun when climbing or descending steep ground?

I think that slappy is the CF's leading outdoor enthusiast and will show us the cool mods he has done on his Jansport external frame packs. He is light years ahead of Dana Gleason and Patrick Smith.

Whoever invented load lifter straps is my hero.


mike r

His info comes from the utoob and the googler.


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Quote
Did you have to round the back to counter the weight or were you more upright?


With I estimate about 80% of the load supported by ones hips, I'm pretty much upright going level or downhill, but have some forward lean when climbing. Again, I use external aluminum tubbing frames with no bag or bottom shelf. Give me about 12 feet of line, and I can lash anything on such that there will be no movement.

My initial frame came from a backpacker, and did have a bag. That was removed and left in the wilderness on my first encounter with an elk quarter. The bag would have forced a high position load and was not roomy enough for quarters carrying ribs. I now have 3 identical frames that are 1970's Sierras. Not had need yet, but always figured it best to have backups. All have a tight mesh webbing lashed from top to near bottom between the uprights that keep the load about 1 1/2 inches off of ones back. Excellent for evaporative cooling. Heaviest loads to date were moose hams and shoulders. Took a little help to get upright with those.

From observing others, I have no desire for the body hugging flexible plastic units. Not sure they would hold up in subzero conditions either.

Not looking forward to packing a bison though.

Last edited by 1minute; 09/29/21.

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Funny thing is that I was ready to log out and checked here first.
I looked at your handle and then at the post time of .......
1minute. Lol!

Thanks for describing that. I appreciate simple designs like that which work. Some think that the latest is the greatest.
I think that there are very innovative designs every other year, but there's the tried and true. If it works for you, it's the best one IMHO.

I never hunted moose.
Thats got to be some serious weight. I think I'd need wheels for that.

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Originally Posted by 805
Originally Posted by lvmiker


Whoever invented load lifter straps is my hero.


mike r



It’s amazing how well they work on a properly setup and adjusted pack. Some packs have “load lifters” but they are useless.

Dan Mchale has the best design IMHO.
If you can find a video online of his "bypass" design, you'll see why.
His load lifters are independent from the shoulder straps. It's easier to adjust properly.
After talking with him and studying his packs, I'm convinced that he still is king of the internals.

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