Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting I found out that elk...

. It's the shock that causes the animal to stand and take shot after shot before going down. [/quote]


I shot a small cow right at 200yds with a .375 H&h/300 Sierra SBT. Hit it tight behind the shoulder, midway. It stood there, kinda humped up a bit. Since she was only a short run from a canyon "that was so deep it might have led to Hell", I popped her high shoulder. Both rounds blew 4" exit holes! shocked for sure, ha.

I do have the advantage of living in Colorado and seeing/hearing about the outcome of LOTS of elk hunts. I would summarize what I've learned as follows:

The BEST bullet designs have near-100% weight retention and limited but very reliable expansion - soft lead in front and then some sort of mechanical expansion-stopper in the rear + bonding:
Swift A-Frame
Trophy Bonded/Bear Claw/Terminal Ascent/Edge TLR
Northfork Bonded

The next tier often give the same performance as the top tier, but have some sort of issue that occasionally crops up:
Partitions (shed weight in front of the partition due to lack of bonding)
Weldcores (aren't expansion limited, and even with bonding sometimes shed weight if driven too fast - under-load them)
Accubond (aren't expansion limited, shed weight)
Barnes X/TSX/TTSX/LRX (sometimes fail to expand at all even with "sufficient" impact velocity)

Then there are the basic cup and core hunting bullets that shed too much weight and rarely exit on bulls and shoulder shots but are still acceptable. These do better in bigger cartridges - by the time you get to a 300gr .375 H&H or whatever they probably exit.

Then in last place that should never be used there are various frangible bullets that just plain come apart (some times with a non-expanded tail):
Berger, Sierra SMK, Accubond LR, Scenar etc.
Hawk (nominally bonded, but in reality so soft and prone to shedding weight I would not recommend them except for rifles with soft steel)

In general you want a bullet with a SD of 0.3 or higher, but in some cartridges that's not available or the shapes and BCs suck. If you can't hit 0.3 SD, really try to at least stay above 0.27. With the mono-metal bullets you generally go lighter though because the penetrate so deep and have trouble with expansion. A bit faster & lighter helps.

Now, here's the thing, it only costs a couple bucks extra to hunt with stuff from the top category. Think about that in comparison to what your tag and fuel cost and what your time is worth. There are factory loads for every one except the Northforks in most common cartridges. You're stupid not to hunt with the best possible bullet because the cost is so low and the cost of lost game is so high.

Got to run up the BS flag on that.

I must be really stupid then. For over 45 years I have hunted with plain old C&C bullets in several different cartridges from 30-30's thru 7mags and muzzle loaders. Only using Partitions when SPS was selling over runs or rejects for $13/box of 50. Not one of the 50 +elk I put in the freezer seemed to mind at all.

I also live in Colorado and hunted it since 74 and another ten years in NM. I have heard that old saw about the bullet being the cheapest part of the hunt so many times every time a discussion like this comes up.When in truth, plain old Remington Cor-loks have probably killed more elk that any other bullet ever made.

Then in last place that should never be used there are various frangible bullets that just plain come apart (some times with a non-expanded tail):
Berger, Sierra SMK, Accubond LR, Scenar etc.
Hawk (nominally bonded, but in reality so soft and prone to shedding weight I would not recommend them except for rifles with soft steel)

In general you want a bullet with a SD of 0.3 or higher, but in some cartridges that's not available or the shapes and BCs suck. If you can't hit 0.3 SD, really try to at least stay above 0.27. With the mono-metal bullets you generally go lighter though because the penetrate so deep and have trouble with expansion. A bit faster & lighter helps.

Now, here's the thing, it only costs a couple bucks extra to hunt with stuff from the top category. Think about that in comparison to what your tag and fuel cost and what your time is worth. There are factory loads for every one except the Northforks in most common cartridges. You're stupid not to hunt with the best possible bullet because the cost is so low and the cost of lost game is so high.
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Since most Berger bullets I use have an SD of .03 or higher looks like I’ll be just fine for elk!😁😁
Just ask the NM bull I shot last year how well the Berger with SD of .0345 works. By the way he was DRT.

I've killed a lot of elk using Speer Hotcores...out of a 270. I've never lost one because none have every run over 50 yards. Take your time and hit them in the right place and they'll go down.

I have killed 7-8 elk with conventional, and rather fragile bullets, and I have witnessed a LOT of elk killed with conventional jacketed bullets--which is why I have learned to like premium bullets.

Once again.....the Partition is SUPPOSED to shed the front core as it travels through the critter. But often the front jacket remains, just like the petals on a X/TSX or the other monos I have seen. In the end frontal area of all them are very similar in diameter. I have seen X/TSX's shed the petals and still be caught in the critter, and I have seen Partitions with part of the front jacket gone and the remaining front jacket pined tight against the shank. Again, the frontal diameter was similar for each bullet.


Llama bob,
Weight retention has little if anything to do with penetration or the size of the hole as the bullet travels through the critter, instead, it's about frontal area. Smaller frontal area translates into greater penetration, larger frontal areas less penetration. The trick is the optimum compromise between the two--which will never work perfectly every time.

I have to disagree with that first sentence.
Maybe we need to do test. Shoulder shot with standard cup and core like SST, partitions and ttsx and see which one has the largest frontal area and penetrate the deepest into the vitals.

The Partition and the TSX--almost every time.

Everything else being equal, Sd does count for something, but bullet construction is the primary factor. The TSX will generally penetrate more because it is more likely to have a slightly smaller frontal area,, sometimes because it will lose a petal or two. Remember, the bullet is constantly changing shape as it travels through the critter. After a bullet begins to expand it may have a larger frontal area than another bullet but end up with a smaller frontal area.

Alpine, do you Have actual experience with the barnes x/ttsx bullets ?
You keep talking about sometimes loosing pedals, but that’s not the case. Majority of time they retain all pedals, and have 99+ % retention weight.
I still don’t understand how you think weight retention doesn’t have anything to do with penetration.
What about the bullets momentum or inertia? Wouldn’t the heavier bullet keep driving vs one that’s lost 30-50% of it’s mass?
For example Take a 130 gr 30 cal and same bullet in 180 gr. shoot them at same velocity so they can expand to same diameter and which one will penetrate deeper?

SD, weight retention, amount of expansion, and petal shape/sharpness all are factors. However, the first two are the ones you can most easily control. Start with a high quality controlled expansion hunting bullet with a > 0.3 SD bullet with a construction that retains near 100% of the weight, and hit at the manufacturer recommended impact velocity, and you will likely get excellent terminal performance.

I have seen very few X bullet lose petals, and those that did still got decent results. The failures I have seen with the X bullets were failures to expand. They've redesigned 3 times now to try to fix that, and I think they're still marginal in that respect. I'm not saying not to use them, but I trust the A-Frame, Northfork, and Bonded Bear Claw family softs more. I have yet to see any of the three have a bullet failure of any sort. The A-Frames and Northforks aren't the most aerodynamic, but the TAs have very good shapes.

You can have a heavy pancake but it won't penetrate as far as a smaller diameter and lighter weight steel rod. A bullet begins to expand shortly after it hits hair, and how much it expands determines penetration regardless of it's original Sd. In other words bullet construction is far and away the biggest factor in how a bullet performs after it hits a critter. I still think Sd counts for something, and based on my observation remain a fan of bullets that are in the heavyish for caliber class.

I started following my dad elk hunting almost 60 years ago. Between family, friends, myself, and guiding, I've probably witnessed 150+ elk killed with centerfires. and I've chased enough well hit, poor bullet performance elk to form a pretty strong opinion based on experience and post death bullet necropsies.. And yes, I killed a moose and caribou with the X-Bullet on a DIY Alaska hunt 30 years ago--when most folks had yet to hear of Barnes. Plus a couple elk when I got home. I've killed and witnessed elk killed with plenty of TSX's and other mono's like the now defunct Groove Bullets from South Africa (the first monolithic bullet to feature grooves). North Forks (great bullet, but in the end it's more like an expensive Partition), Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame etc, etc, are or have been all good bullets and I highly recommend any of the premium bullets (Accubonds are kind've at the bottom of the recommended list though).

The Partition is still my first choice because it performs well across the greatest range of velocities of the bullets I've seen used on elk. Not to mention, sitting in my reloading cabinet are close to 1500 Partition 2nds in a long list of calibers and weights, and all them cost me less than $30 a bag including shipping--some cost me less than $10 a bag.

Everybody can cite examples when plain old cup & cores penetrated well and killed the elk in an instant--I've seen it with me own eyes. I've also seen premium bullets not perform the way I expected. But in the end the premiums are more consistent in their behavior. Moderate expansion under a range of velocities, deep penetration, is where it's at.

Having said that, my new 308's elk load features the 150g TTSX and I may carry that rifle for my second elk tag this year. I've only seen three elk killed with TTSX's while guiding, but think the bullet did a great job.

As I have mentioned a few times before on these kind of threads, I think in the mid term future lead core bullets will probably be prohibited and we will all be using monos for big game hunting in the West whether we like them or not.

Well I don’t shoot elk with steel rods or FMJ.
I want big expansion, weight retention, and penetration
The ttsx check all of those

The best way I know how to do that is suspend the laws of Physics...........

Lately Peregrine bullets have caught my attention due to lack of specific offerings (I am considering .323 @ ~3250). Still looking into them, not even sure if they can be ordered from the USA. These are a copper design, many drive bands, long spitzer with brass tip plunger. Not the most expanding bullet but look good and reliable, very good penetration is reported and... no petal shearing. Should I acquire some I will post results!

This. Higher impact velocity typically means the bullet expands more and sheds more weight, thereby reducing it's forward momentum. I've caught more 140 gr 7mm bullets in whitetails at 10 yards than I have at 250 yards.

Additional side to side damage is MUCH less valuable than additional wound depth and a bleeding exit wound. Elk where all they have is a small bore entrance wound may shed very little blood, and can go a very long way before dropping in rough terrain leaving an impossible tracking job.

The top performing bullets and cartridges will expand and exit on all reasonable shot angles at reasonable hunting distances.

I use what shoots best in my rifle. For elk red box 180gr in 30-06! And 250 gr Grand Slams that I hoarded, in my .338 wm! Never lost an animal. I do like two holes but don't always get that with the 30-06. This and I have never had a barnes bullet the would group good in my elk rifles. After lots of trials I gave up on them. The barnes work great in the wifes .243, and shoot bug holes! We all have our own experiences.