Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting I found out that elk...

...sure are tough, thick hided critters. I got the opportunity to take my first elk in Idaho a couple weeks ago. Shot was at exactly 200 yards with a Tikka 7mm Rem Mag and a 168 grain Nosler Accubond. Double lung shot, broadside, bullet lodged on the inside of the hide on the far side. My buddy shot his elk with a 180 grain Winchester Ballistic Silver tip out of his 300 Win Mag at 75 yards. Same scenario, broadside, double lung, bullet was in the same spot as my elk. I have shot my share of whitetail and back bear here in NH, often resulting in complete pass throughs. I'm glad my buddy and I chose the calibers we did, as both elk we shot were one shot kills. I'msure there are plenty of other bullets in plenty of other calibers that would have done the job, but I discovered on my experience, elk are tough critters.

99

They're incredible animals. I've shot 4 with center fire rifles and 10 with a 50 cal muzzle loader. They generally fight against dieing, and aren't too quick to lay down unless spine hit. One time we'll off season hiking. I came face to face with a big bull on a narrow trail. He took off straight down a boulder strewn cliff like a bulldozer. I've also watched rutting bulls charge up and down monster hills like a fast train through a Kansas prairie.

Congratulations on your hunt!

99 in 22/250: Congratulations to you and your buddy on your Idaho bulls. Unless you like two holes in your game animals... what happened was the best bullet experience. All your bullets energy was dumped into you game animal with not exiting, but passing through the entire chest cavity and stopping just under the far side hide. Happy for you... hope he eats well ! HH

Elk are pretty easy to kill but their hides are very tough and stretchy. I've had my bullet trapped by the hide like that many times, even with a 300 WSM. It's a pass through other than the hide. I once saw a slo-mo video of an elk's hide stretching out when the bullet hits it. It must have stretched out a foot. Ab's mushroom a lot and the hide often catches them.

At 200 yds a double lung shot should have passed through with a 7mag and definetly a 75 yd shot with a 300 mag. I've shot numerous elk with a 270win, 150gr nosler partition, 2800fps and had pass through several times. The last one was a small 5x5 at 325 yds and the pass though blew blood and lungs all over the snow bank and elk dropped in his tracks.

If a bullet misses all the bones, it will usually break the hide but bones will slow it down enough for the hide to catch it.

While a bullet may have more energy when it hits the target closer, as opposed to further out.....it'll also generally expand more due to that extra energy (I guess). Less frontal area aids penetration and more frontal area hinders it. Kind of door opens both ways scenario.

I'd have to think about it, but I suspect I have observed more exits on elk at 3-600 yards than I have at closer ranges, with the same bullet, muzzle velocity and hit location.

I agree and I'm wondering if the Accubond expands more than the partition? All my kills with partitions the penetration has been great. I've never loaded Accubonds so its hard to say from actual experience. So comparing them may be apples to oranges.

Elk aren’t so tough in my experience.

Don’t get me wrong, you have to hit them hard, but they ain’t armored.

Details on muzzle velocities of the 7mag and 300 Win Mag with those bullets.Pics of bullets and retained weights would be nice to know too.

I have killed elk with a 30-30, 44 mag carbine, 30-06, 2 different 7mm mags,. 2-3 different 50 cal muzzle loaders.Mostly double lung shots. A few I clipped the scapula. I can't remember many, if any, that were complete pass throughs of the 50+ I have killed. Most bullets were found under the hide on the far side , some were never recovered inside the animal as I don't make habit of digging thru blood and gore to find a bullet

Most bullets were std C&C, except the ML being Power Belts or Maxiballs, the 7 mags being 160 gr GK..Only on the last few elk did I use 180 gr Partitions after SPS were selling over runs for $13/box.Before that, 220 gr RN in the .06. Distances ranged from as little as10 yards to 400 yards.

I have been elk hunting for about 57years .I never found elk all that hard to kill. Probably won't be doing it much longer.

Saddlesore - did you find the 180 partitions more likely to exit?

If you want pass-throughs, shoot a mono bullet.

I have not recovered a Barnes, either the original X, XLC TSX or TTSX, from an animal, yet, and I've been using them since 1992. They will take the abuse of a very close, high velocity impact, and still perform way out yonder.

Nope. I recovered most of them. Others were still in body,but I didn't look for them

The more a bullet expands and messes up the insides, the less energy it has left and the less likely it is to get through that stretchy hide. Energy that's used up inside is a good thing.

Maybe Oregon elk are soft skinned critters? I've never had trouble killing them either. Finding them may be a different problem all together though.. As for the guys saying their elk have caught 180gr partitions. BTDT. That's why I stepped up to the 200's.

Any pics of recovered Powerbelts or were those left on the mountain with the goo?

I have a few I'll post later.


Here is 295 gr PB. 90 gr of Black Powder, , 50cal, TC Black Diamond. Cow elk, 70yards. Found under hide on off side

There are only a couple of Idaho rifle bull hunts this early.
Did you have a special draw somewhere or were you on one of the early backcountry general hunts like in the Selway maybe?

I think it's worth going to a deeper penetrating bullet to get the pass through - makes tracking much easier if (when) they run some. And I've seen even double-lung/heart elk run a good bit.

The 200gr Terminal Acent and 200gr A-Frame in .30 bores seem to work well. The 7mm 175gr A-Frame is good too.

Curious about that myself? I know the backcountry units opened Sept 15th or maybe it was maybe an early season controlled hunt?

I'd also like to know the size of these elk they shot. Elk are not all created equal. BIG difference between a young bull /cow vs a Mature Bull.

Leave the poly tip in or pull it out before shooting?

I pull the poly tip. Then it is the same as PB hollow point.Then I press a .17 cal air rifle pellet in it to fill the HP now.The one shown did not have it

I have killed cows,small bulls and big mature 7x8 bulls and never saw much difference of how they died no matter what I hit them with.Elk that have just run up a mountain side and have their adrenaline up,do take little bit more though I would guess.

This is why experienced elk hunters are always talking about shot placement and bonded or mono bullets because elk are tough, very tough if you don’t get the boiler room.
You also don’t need a magnum with in normal hunting ranges. But if you can handle it and be a good shot. You do you.

I’ve never caught a TTSX in large bodied elk using 150 gr 7mm or 168 gr .300 mag. JME

Same here.
168 ttsx out of 06 elk from 25-400 yards.
all pass through, even the shoulder shot

It is so strange how different people have different experiences.
I think I have killed maybe 6 animals with a mono, whether barnes or other.
.223 Rem and 62 TSX to .375 H&H and the old 270 Failsafe. I have recovered 3 of them and have not been overly impressed with their performance or reliability, overall.

I've had pass throughs and bullets stopped with my 338 WMs and my brothers' 300 Mags, but last year was the first year hunting with my 26 Nosler. 140 grain Accubond at around 3400 fps hit a spike at 127 yards. Hit high on both shoulder blades, hit a rib going in one side and going out the other, and clipped the bottom of the spine- found the bullet under the skin on the far side. Dropped in his tracks while the rest of the herd ran off... I can't quantify why some pass through and some don't, but it is one of those things I don't worry about unless it becomes a long tracking job...

Bob

"I think it's worth going to a deeper penetrating bullet to get the pass through - makes tracking much easier if (when) they run some. And I've seen even double-lung/heart elk run a good bit."

Agreed.

No surprises here. Guys that primarily hunt elk don't think they're that hard to kill but guys that hunt deer and similar sized big game find that elk are tougher. I'm in the latter group; they seem much tougher to kill than deer or black bear. Brings to mind the post about needing premium bullets for elk. They may not be needed but it seems like a damn good idea especially if you're an out of stater that only gets to hunt elk occasionally.

FWIW I've always had pass throughs with a 338 200gr TBT but haven't found a full bore muzzy bullet that will do the same. Maybe I'm pushing them too fast..

If an '06 or 270 gets a bullet all the way through the animal, whether the hide catches it or not, how can a larger caliber do any better? I've shot any number of elk with a 270 using both GS's and Speer Hotcores, 150 gr. I've never seen much difference in retained weight. They all end up under the hide of a dead elk.

Something else to consider. Shock happens when the blood pressure drops very rapidly, leaving the victim nearly comatose. Occasionally a bullet will cut a major blood vessel, causing massive internal bleeding. The resulting drop in BP puts the animal in shock and it will just stand there, dead on it's feet. One time I shot an elk in the lungs. It apparently went into shock as it just stood there looking dumb. I shot it 3 more times before it slowly fell over. All 4 shots were through the lungs and heart which were total mush and the far shoulder was broken but it didn't go down. Shock can cause some strange reactions. You think your bullet didn't do the job while in reality, it did a great job. It's the shock that causes the animal to stand and take shot after shot before going down.

Agreed on different experiences. I've recovered more Partitions (30-06 and 338 Win Mag) from pronghorn (one each) than I have Scenars (260 Rem = 0). With the latter combination have a much higher sample size.

I have many 40/50 kills with the 180 NP, out of various 30 calibers, mostly 300WM. I DO NOT want a pass thru, I do my best to shoot them, to break them down, instantally, by breaking both front shoulders. I have seen to many run over a hill into the next canyon, after being hit in the lungs or heart. I want them DRT. I don't want to have to follow them around on 50% side hills and deep canyons where a 100 yard run ends up being a quarter mile down the mountain in the timber. I like the Pt and have good experiences with the AB. My last three elk kills, at 420, 310, and 180, yards, have all been one shot and I saw them hit the ground. This will be my 56th or 57th season, and my first hunt starts on Saturday.

I can always find the poly tip on the ground about 15 yards from where I shot.

I had a similar experience with a .35 Whelen shooting 225 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws at a broadside bull at a hundred yards. Hit him 3 times in rapid succession and he fell over as I squeezed off the third shot. All 3 entry wounds were just behind the crease of the shoulder no more than 2 inches apart. Innards were jello and he was dead on his feet and didn’t know it. IDGAS, if they are still standing, I’m still shooting….

ANY Partition is more likely to exit, especially so on a broadside lung shot. And if that was how elk usually presented themselves there are a number of bullets that will do the job. But I’ve shot more elk quartering away than broadside, and a bullet with moderate expansion and deep penetration is the bullet for elk. Like a Partition or TTSX.

I have a pair of 243’s that have accounted for 14 elk, all with 100g Partitions.

When it comes to elk, it’s about the bullet, not the cartridge.

One thing I have observed between myself, family, friends, and guiding, an exit hole tends to make an elk more obviously sick immediately after being hit.

Things don't go the way you want much of the time when elk hunting.

In open country I'd be fine with a single hole and huge internal damage. In thick steep country, two holes leaking is best if you don't drop them.

I've been using Woodleigh Weld Cores out of my .338WM for years. I think they're better than Partitions. Absolutely better than Barnes from what I've seen. Which admittedly isn't a bunch compared to some.

. It's the shock that causes the animal to stand and take shot after shot before going down. [/quote]


I shot a small cow right at 200yds with a .375 H&h/300 Sierra SBT. Hit it tight behind the shoulder, midway. It stood there, kinda humped up a bit. Since she was only a short run from a canyon "that was so deep it might have led to Hell", I popped her high shoulder. Both rounds blew 4" exit holes! shocked for sure, ha.

I do have the advantage of living in Colorado and seeing/hearing about the outcome of LOTS of elk hunts. I would summarize what I've learned as follows:

The BEST bullet designs have near-100% weight retention and limited but very reliable expansion - soft lead in front and then some sort of mechanical expansion-stopper in the rear + bonding:
Swift A-Frame
Trophy Bonded/Bear Claw/Terminal Ascent/Edge TLR
Northfork Bonded

The next tier often give the same performance as the top tier, but have some sort of issue that occasionally crops up:
Partitions (shed weight in front of the partition due to lack of bonding)
Weldcores (aren't expansion limited, and even with bonding sometimes shed weight if driven too fast - under-load them)
Accubond (aren't expansion limited, shed weight)
Barnes X/TSX/TTSX/LRX (sometimes fail to expand at all even with "sufficient" impact velocity)

Then there are the basic cup and core hunting bullets that shed too much weight and rarely exit on bulls and shoulder shots but are still acceptable. These do better in bigger cartridges - by the time you get to a 300gr .375 H&H or whatever they probably exit.

Then in last place that should never be used there are various frangible bullets that just plain come apart (some times with a non-expanded tail):
Berger, Sierra SMK, Accubond LR, Scenar etc.
Hawk (nominally bonded, but in reality so soft and prone to shedding weight I would not recommend them except for rifles with soft steel)

In general you want a bullet with a SD of 0.3 or higher, but in some cartridges that's not available or the shapes and BCs suck. If you can't hit 0.3 SD, really try to at least stay above 0.27. With the mono-metal bullets you generally go lighter though because the penetrate so deep and have trouble with expansion. A bit faster & lighter helps.

Now, here's the thing, it only costs a couple bucks extra to hunt with stuff from the top category. Think about that in comparison to what your tag and fuel cost and what your time is worth. There are factory loads for every one except the Northforks in most common cartridges. You're stupid not to hunt with the best possible bullet because the cost is so low and the cost of lost game is so high.

Got to run up the BS flag on that.

I must be really stupid then. For over 45 years I have hunted with plain old C&C bullets in several different cartridges from 30-30's thru 7mags and muzzle loaders. Only using Partitions when SPS was selling over runs or rejects for $13/box of 50. Not one of the 50 +elk I put in the freezer seemed to mind at all.

I also live in Colorado and hunted it since 74 and another ten years in NM. I have heard that old saw about the bullet being the cheapest part of the hunt so many times every time a discussion like this comes up.When in truth, plain old Remington Cor-loks have probably killed more elk that any other bullet ever made.

Then in last place that should never be used there are various frangible bullets that just plain come apart (some times with a non-expanded tail):
Berger, Sierra SMK, Accubond LR, Scenar etc.
Hawk (nominally bonded, but in reality so soft and prone to shedding weight I would not recommend them except for rifles with soft steel)

In general you want a bullet with a SD of 0.3 or higher, but in some cartridges that's not available or the shapes and BCs suck. If you can't hit 0.3 SD, really try to at least stay above 0.27. With the mono-metal bullets you generally go lighter though because the penetrate so deep and have trouble with expansion. A bit faster & lighter helps.

Now, here's the thing, it only costs a couple bucks extra to hunt with stuff from the top category. Think about that in comparison to what your tag and fuel cost and what your time is worth. There are factory loads for every one except the Northforks in most common cartridges. You're stupid not to hunt with the best possible bullet because the cost is so low and the cost of lost game is so high.
[/quote]

Since most Berger bullets I use have an SD of .03 or higher looks like I’ll be just fine for elk!😁😁
Just ask the NM bull I shot last year how well the Berger with SD of .0345 works. By the way he was DRT.

I've killed a lot of elk using Speer Hotcores...out of a 270. I've never lost one because none have every run over 50 yards. Take your time and hit them in the right place and they'll go down.

I have killed 7-8 elk with conventional, and rather fragile bullets, and I have witnessed a LOT of elk killed with conventional jacketed bullets--which is why I have learned to like premium bullets.

Once again.....the Partition is SUPPOSED to shed the front core as it travels through the critter. But often the front jacket remains, just like the petals on a X/TSX or the other monos I have seen. In the end frontal area of all them are very similar in diameter. I have seen X/TSX's shed the petals and still be caught in the critter, and I have seen Partitions with part of the front jacket gone and the remaining front jacket pined tight against the shank. Again, the frontal diameter was similar for each bullet.


Llama bob,
Weight retention has little if anything to do with penetration or the size of the hole as the bullet travels through the critter, instead, it's about frontal area. Smaller frontal area translates into greater penetration, larger frontal areas less penetration. The trick is the optimum compromise between the two--which will never work perfectly every time.

I have to disagree with that first sentence.
Maybe we need to do test. Shoulder shot with standard cup and core like SST, partitions and ttsx and see which one has the largest frontal area and penetrate the deepest into the vitals.

The Partition and the TSX--almost every time.

Everything else being equal, Sd does count for something, but bullet construction is the primary factor. The TSX will generally penetrate more because it is more likely to have a slightly smaller frontal area,, sometimes because it will lose a petal or two. Remember, the bullet is constantly changing shape as it travels through the critter. After a bullet begins to expand it may have a larger frontal area than another bullet but end up with a smaller frontal area.

Alpine, do you Have actual experience with the barnes x/ttsx bullets ?
You keep talking about sometimes loosing pedals, but that’s not the case. Majority of time they retain all pedals, and have 99+ % retention weight.
I still don’t understand how you think weight retention doesn’t have anything to do with penetration.
What about the bullets momentum or inertia? Wouldn’t the heavier bullet keep driving vs one that’s lost 30-50% of it’s mass?
For example Take a 130 gr 30 cal and same bullet in 180 gr. shoot them at same velocity so they can expand to same diameter and which one will penetrate deeper?

SD, weight retention, amount of expansion, and petal shape/sharpness all are factors. However, the first two are the ones you can most easily control. Start with a high quality controlled expansion hunting bullet with a > 0.3 SD bullet with a construction that retains near 100% of the weight, and hit at the manufacturer recommended impact velocity, and you will likely get excellent terminal performance.

I have seen very few X bullet lose petals, and those that did still got decent results. The failures I have seen with the X bullets were failures to expand. They've redesigned 3 times now to try to fix that, and I think they're still marginal in that respect. I'm not saying not to use them, but I trust the A-Frame, Northfork, and Bonded Bear Claw family softs more. I have yet to see any of the three have a bullet failure of any sort. The A-Frames and Northforks aren't the most aerodynamic, but the TAs have very good shapes.

You can have a heavy pancake but it won't penetrate as far as a smaller diameter and lighter weight steel rod. A bullet begins to expand shortly after it hits hair, and how much it expands determines penetration regardless of it's original Sd. In other words bullet construction is far and away the biggest factor in how a bullet performs after it hits a critter. I still think Sd counts for something, and based on my observation remain a fan of bullets that are in the heavyish for caliber class.

I started following my dad elk hunting almost 60 years ago. Between family, friends, myself, and guiding, I've probably witnessed 150+ elk killed with centerfires. and I've chased enough well hit, poor bullet performance elk to form a pretty strong opinion based on experience and post death bullet necropsies.. And yes, I killed a moose and caribou with the X-Bullet on a DIY Alaska hunt 30 years ago--when most folks had yet to hear of Barnes. Plus a couple elk when I got home. I've killed and witnessed elk killed with plenty of TSX's and other mono's like the now defunct Groove Bullets from South Africa (the first monolithic bullet to feature grooves). North Forks (great bullet, but in the end it's more like an expensive Partition), Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame etc, etc, are or have been all good bullets and I highly recommend any of the premium bullets (Accubonds are kind've at the bottom of the recommended list though).

The Partition is still my first choice because it performs well across the greatest range of velocities of the bullets I've seen used on elk. Not to mention, sitting in my reloading cabinet are close to 1500 Partition 2nds in a long list of calibers and weights, and all them cost me less than $30 a bag including shipping--some cost me less than $10 a bag.

Everybody can cite examples when plain old cup & cores penetrated well and killed the elk in an instant--I've seen it with me own eyes. I've also seen premium bullets not perform the way I expected. But in the end the premiums are more consistent in their behavior. Moderate expansion under a range of velocities, deep penetration, is where it's at.

Having said that, my new 308's elk load features the 150g TTSX and I may carry that rifle for my second elk tag this year. I've only seen three elk killed with TTSX's while guiding, but think the bullet did a great job.

As I have mentioned a few times before on these kind of threads, I think in the mid term future lead core bullets will probably be prohibited and we will all be using monos for big game hunting in the West whether we like them or not.

Well I don’t shoot elk with steel rods or FMJ.
I want big expansion, weight retention, and penetration
The ttsx check all of those

The best way I know how to do that is suspend the laws of Physics...........

Lately Peregrine bullets have caught my attention due to lack of specific offerings (I am considering .323 @ ~3250). Still looking into them, not even sure if they can be ordered from the USA. These are a copper design, many drive bands, long spitzer with brass tip plunger. Not the most expanding bullet but look good and reliable, very good penetration is reported and... no petal shearing. Should I acquire some I will post results!

This. Higher impact velocity typically means the bullet expands more and sheds more weight, thereby reducing it's forward momentum. I've caught more 140 gr 7mm bullets in whitetails at 10 yards than I have at 250 yards.

Additional side to side damage is MUCH less valuable than additional wound depth and a bleeding exit wound. Elk where all they have is a small bore entrance wound may shed very little blood, and can go a very long way before dropping in rough terrain leaving an impossible tracking job.

The top performing bullets and cartridges will expand and exit on all reasonable shot angles at reasonable hunting distances.

I use what shoots best in my rifle. For elk red box 180gr in 30-06! And 250 gr Grand Slams that I hoarded, in my .338 wm! Never lost an animal. I do like two holes but don't always get that with the 30-06. This and I have never had a barnes bullet the would group good in my elk rifles. After lots of trials I gave up on them. The barnes work great in the wifes .243, and shoot bug holes! We all have our own experiences.