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battue Offline OP
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Coming from the days of regular 20-40 flushes....going for a limit was never an issue to question....Be it two in Pa or 4 or 5 in other States...

Seems to be Birds are on the rise in some States...but far from some past historic highs. However, I realize some places do have what seem to be abundant numbers. Let's accept that and only consider those places were that is not the case.

So, if one is only getting 4-10 flushes a day....Is going for a daily bag limit still a priority?


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Nope. The bag limit is a maximum, not a quota, and hunting is not a job. When I was at work, I had to make a quota. Hunting is my day off.

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I don't find it particularly hard to shoot a limit the last few years. But I'm fine going home empty handed as well. Enjoying these beautiful birds, getting outside, and taking in the sights and sounds is more important.


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battue Offline OP
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Perhaps I need to make a clarification. I’m not concerned with the often mentioned soul lifting benefits of a great day out with Dogs.

The question isn’t about us, but the Birds. In times of plenty we can kill many, however should we do the same in lesser years.

The peaks are great, however historically the peaks have shown to be a downward trend….while historically the daily limit has remained the same.
West Nile Virus is being said to be a problem with Bird survival, yet some they are saying have genetic resistance. Are the extra Birds we kill because of the legal limit, some which may be Birds that can pass on the same….and some for sure can….worth it during years of fewer Birds?
And especially late season winter Birds. They are survivors that made it thru a hunting season, predators and maybe even beat WNV.

And don’t be fooled by the old line of good year/bad year and they balance out. I had the chance to talk with some of guys who were old back in the 70’s. Their peaks were crazy higher than our best.

Habitat? We have a lot of it. The decline is not always because of it.

Taking a species down to numbers were it can’t repopulate a large area has happened more than once.

Wild Ruffed Grouse are the King….killing the King should be done with consideration of who replaces him.

Last edited by battue; 09/27/21.

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battue Offline OP
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Take from it what you want....but there are some significant population decreases for our east coast States....

And there is a point, where reduced numbers will result in no amount of increased habitat bringing them back....

https://timberdoodle.org/news/ruffed-grouse-decline-linked-loss-young-forest


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Good point Battue. Here in WI the county forests in Central to Northern WI (possibly MN too) are usually the best populations due to considerably more timber harvesting, thus improved habitat for grouse (and deer). Turkeys thrive about anywhere up here.
The tree huggers interfere with the Forest Service doing any TSI the most, the state a bit less, the counties not at all as the County Parks & Forestey Committees tell the huggers to pound sand, they want the revenues.

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I totally agree and understand what you are asking battue. It's a real conversation that we need to be having. I'm pretty lucky here in Maine as we have plenty of habitat and WNV isn't bad here yet. But my fear as things continue to worsen in Southern New England and mid Atlantic states, is increased hunting pressure. Which is already been seen and felt. We really have the last stronghold of good populations and habitat on the east coast. Last year was a banner year for birds and from what I'm hearing as numbers are extremely high again this year. Dry springs have been highly beneficial for young survival.

To answer your question. No I don't think we should be killing 4 grouse a day when populations are low here in the state of Maine. But the bag limit has been that for a long time so I don't see it changing.


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battue Offline OP
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I saw the GC watch it happen in Pa. Hunters told them Birds were in a major decline…their response was habitat deterioration. Many knowledgeable hunters told them we have great covers with few to no Birds. And for years were ignored….The GC had the degrees, the hunters only boots on the ground.

Finally they went out-with some of the same hunters- and were shown many great covers that should hold Birds.

They ignored the situation for at least 15 years. All the while bragging about their Deer program. Well, great Deer and Grouse covers are almost identical. It should have been obvious to any that had a couple clues re Grouse….something was going on.

And finally????? "Oh look here what we found....West Nile Virus."

Yet they practically had to be spoon fed to acknowledge they had fumbled the ball.

You could make the limit 10….but if you have no Birds what difference would it make.





Last edited by battue; 09/28/21.

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The Pa GC became a TV show....It was all about Deer, Turkey and archery....


Take it back another couple decades and the picture would look even worse....

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It is much the same in the southeast with quail. Apparently the habitat has remained bad in eastern NC for almost 30 years now. It's been about that long since we had enough birds to make having a bird dog to hunt with worthwhile. According to the textbooks, the habitat in the '60s and '70s was worse; but yet, somehow, we had birds back then.

Not intending to hijack the thread to discuss the quail situation here, but just to reinforce the fallibility of the wildlife establishment.


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Believe it or not, NV has some good ruffed grouse habitat. NDOW has introduced them into isolated and not so isolated areas. They completely screwed the pooch when they introduced them into heavily used creeks and canyons. The ruffies get clobbered by road hunters during deer season, and NDOW is too lazy to get into the hard to reach habitat. They'd have to get out of their new trucks and walk.

We have large pockets of choke cherries, wild roses, wild currents, and wild gooseberries in many remote canyons that have permanent water sources.

West Nile has our sagehen and blue grouse populations struggling.

There are sagehen, blue grouse, and ruffed grouse 15 miles from this deserted ranch.

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Last edited by luv2safari; 09/28/21.

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battue Offline OP
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Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
It is much the same in the southeast with quail. Apparently the habitat has remained bad in eastern NC for almost 30 years now. It's been about that long since we had enough birds to make having a bird dog to hunt with worthwhile. According to the textbooks, the habitat in the '60s and '70s was worse; but yet, somehow, we had birds back then.

Not intending to hijack the thread to discuss the quail situation here, but just to reinforce the fallibility of the wildlife establishment.


The NC mountains also had some marginal Ruffed Grouse hunting....It wasn't for the non-dedicated or those not willing to take on a challenge....


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battue Offline OP
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Originally Posted by luv2safari
Believe it or not, NV has some good ruffed grouse habitat. NDOW has introduced them into isolated and not so isolated areas. They completely screwed the pooch when they introduced them into heavily used creeks and canyons. The ruffies get clobbered by road hunters during deer season, and NDOW is too lazy to get into the hard to reach habitat. They'd have to get out of their new trucks and walk.

We have large pockets of choke cherries, wild roses, wild currents, and wild gooseberries in many remote canyons that have permanent water sources.

West Nile has our sagehen and blue grouse populations struggling.



Given a chance, a decent Ruffed Grouse population will fall shuffle into other available good covers....


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Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
It is much the same in the southeast with quail. Apparently the habitat has remained bad in eastern NC for almost 30 years now. It's been about that long since we had enough birds to make having a bird dog to hunt with worthwhile. According to the textbooks, the habitat in the '60s and '70s was worse; but yet, somehow, we had birds back then.

Not intending to hijack the thread to discuss the quail situation here, but just to reinforce the fallibility of the wildlife establishment.


The NC mountains also had some marginal Ruffed Grouse hunting....It wasn't for the non-dedicated or those not willing to take on a challenge....


Yep. Never hunted them there, but I understand there are still a few to be had. The tree huggers have caused timber harvests to decline in the Pisgah and Nantahala NFs, which has hurt the habitat...according to the biologists. Maybe someone from up there will chime in.


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Deer and grouse cover are almost identical? Not even close up here in the big woods. In fact all of the timber harvesting in the North Maine Woods has greatly hurt the deer population but greatly benefitted moose and grouse populations. Deer here need mature softwood overstories to survive the winters.

And that graph shows 2020 being a bad year for Maine? Where is this data coming from? 2020 was one of the best years in the past decade and the graph should indicate that. I don't disagree that grouse populations as whole are seeing a downward trend. But at least portray accurate representation of upward ticks as well.


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battue Offline OP
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Shows how different places make things change....Here our best overwinter Deer covers are often recent cuts or new growth that allows easy access to food and thermal protection...Gets cold here, but the snow usually doesn't pile up all that high during most winters, and they usually are close to easy low lying browse.

That graph came from a place i stumbled across previously...I'll try to relocate the source..

Last edited by battue; 09/28/21.

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So Battue, is the WNV the primary reason over the years for the decrease in grouse numbers across the NE in your opinion? Or is that too simplistic?

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battue Offline OP
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My opinion here in Pa is it must be a significant contributor. In more ways than being only a disease factor.

I know we have more than enough good covers. I know the hunting pressure on them has dropped. Not only in the number of hunters, but the season has also been shortened by 3 weeks. Later I can post a video of why, the GC scientist studying them makes the case for disease.

My main concern is that populations in most areas have gone so low that natural repopulation may be unlikely.

You need Birds to make a Dog…and you need more than a few Birds to bring Birds back. Read in another report were some fear they have completely “winked out” in some places.

Some go down the path thinking they never could never completely wink out. That’s been proven wrong more than once.

Last edited by battue; 09/28/21.

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That’s bad news for the greatest game bird I’ve never hunted. There were some outdoor shows on TV here this summer on which there were some RG hunts in northern Wisc and the implication was there were plenty birds, enough to make a hunting camp excursion worth while.

Of course, you are never quite sure where the truth lies.

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battue Offline OP
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One case for disease....although I don't necessarily agree with the methodology... you inject developing embryos with a virus...I would think more than often the results may not be a perfect birth...

Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maine, Michigan and the some of the Canadian provinces still produce good hatches on certain years...It seems they are holding on the further North one goes...And this year the reports seem to be very good.




Last edited by battue; 09/28/21.

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