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Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16476376 09/27/21
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Maybe this will be helpful.

I spent a couple summers playing around with 180 gr Nosler Partitions in preparation for some Newfoundland Moose hunts. I loaded for a 7m/m Rem and a couple different 30-06's. After much shooting I really couldn't see that much practical difference between the 7 m/m and the '06....and yes, I know there is a difference... but given my shooting ability and the ranges at which I would be shooting, the 30-06 seemed to be the logical choice. So then it occurred to me that if I were to forsake the magnum case and go with the 06, that what I wanted was a "maximum" 30-06.The whole concept was how to get the most out of an '06 and 180 gr. bullets safely.

What followed that summer was me in hot pursuit of the obvious. I burned through a number of different powders, H4831, a couple of the 4350's, RL 22, RL 19,RL17 and at the end, Western Powders Hunter. When all was said and done, I arrived at 57.5 gr. H4350 for the best accuracy and velocity....just a snit under 2800 fps. Hodgdon lists that load at 49,300 CUP, NOT PSI, by the way. I. I relearned a lot of the things that were always obvious, like for example....that 24" barrels shoot faster than 22" barrels. ...duh. So, my "maximum" 30-06 needed a 24 inch barrel. $450 later, I had a 24 inch barrel on my Rem 700 and a load that tickled 2800 fps with good accuracy....right? Well, not quite, there was a certain Montana gunwriter who had mentioned that he was shooting Hunter powder and was getting good accuracy and a bit higher velocity with about 57-59 grs. of Hunter. I tried it and it shot poorly. I posted my result here and that certain Montana gunwriter responded that he had used a magnum primer not the WLR primer I had used. Back to the reloading bench and the range and....the velocity was higher by about 50 fps than the the H4350 load and the accuracy was even better. The hunter load, 58.5 grs. as I recall, shot even better and was choreographing about 2850 with excellent accuracy. This, finally, was my "maximum" 30-06 load. Perfect. Unfortunately, this was two days before I was to leave for Newfoundland. Too late to make any changes. Since then, I have knocked off two moose with one shot a piece with the H4350 load. The load using Hunter would have been more...well, more "maximum"...and in the end, it didn't make any difference.

In the end, trying to push the 30-06 beyond 60,000 psi really won't get you very much... you can do it, but you are clearly at the point of diminishing returns. If you choose to push it further, then a case load of Western Hunter, somewhere north of 59 grs. would be the place to start....but I don't recommend it.





.


You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
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Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: shootem] #16476608 09/28/21
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quote] I personally have seen two early Remington 740's both in .270, heavily damaged...SUPPOSEDLY with factory ammo. One looked pretty good except for being locked up tight and one had a gap betwixt barrel and action face and a splintered wood forearm. Neither shooter admitted to handloads. The one that we were able to open eventually...the Federal brass was parted but did not look that bad, leading us to believe the rifle failed..with just a cursory inspection. I don't know what the final outcome was with Remington. Neither shooter was injured.[/quote]

I have cause to question factory pressures in some cartridge loadings. As most of us do, I have picked up range brass that is obviously in great shape. One of my last pickups was some Hornady Superformance in .270 Winchester. Brass appears new. It was on the ground, empty boxes in the trash can. Got both. At home looking it over, all 34 cases had obviously cratered primers. I mean a sharp ridge around the firing pin impact and flattened surface outside that. Boxes appeared new as well. Everything appeared to be factory fresh. But what pressure was required to flatten and crater primers in factory ammunition?

Also have 19 nickeled 7mmWSM Winchester factory loaded empty’s I got with a rifle so chambered. Once fired said the seller. Again, primer strikes are cratered with flattening of the remaining primer surface. In these two examples “tradition pressure signs” were exhibited in factory ammo. IIRC the 7mmWSM is a 65k cartridge like the .270. But again, what pressure is required to leave such an imprint. Inquiring minds. [/quote]

I’ve had similar observations, and this (in my mind) underscores why primer appearances aren’t not a good indicator of pressure. As an example, I received some PMC 6.5x55 brass that had been fired once in a Rem 700 (factory). Primers were flat (in fact had flowed some) but the pockets were almost as tight as new brass, and resized with no issues. Similarly, a friend gave me his once fired Federal Gold Medal Match .308 brass fired in a M110 look alike with a Match chamber. This brass wouldn’t hold the primers after one firing. The ammo was Federal’s factory loaded 168 Match loads.

I don’t believe either load was high pressure at all. The 6.5 ammo had soft primers, the .308 soft brass. Both appeared to be high pressure, if using primer/primer pockets as your sole indicator.

Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16476955 09/28/21
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I would tell you that what works in a particular rifle "might not" work in yours. Never ASSUME when fingers and eyes are at stake. I`ve had barrels that went over max suggested loads for a velocity target, and never got there,a 308, and barrels I started 2 grns, under suggested start loads, with velocities well above what was suggested, a 7 Wby mag.
You need to read what your rifle is telling you.

Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: flintlocke] #16477355 09/28/21
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Originally Posted by flintlocke

I personally have seen two early Remington 740's both in .270, heavily damaged...SUPPOSEDLY with factory ammo.


The 740 Remington is the worst rifle Remington has ever made, in my opinion. Remington recognized the issue right away, the 742 was a much better rifle. The main value of a 740 is that the 740 stock can be used as firewood.


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Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16477665 09/28/21
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"Similarly, a friend gave me his once fired Federal Gold Medal Match .308 brass fired in a M110 look alike with a Match chamber. This brass wouldn’t hold the primers after one firing. The ammo was Federal’s factory loaded 168 Match loads."

I had a similar experienced with that Federal Gold Medal .308 brass. I was gifted 1,100+ rounds of the stuff and the primer pockets were about useless. Many primers were quite flat as well. I was lucky to get one or two reloads from the brass.

On cratered primers, I have a Remington 700 BDL that will crater primers even on light cast bullet loads. On close inspection of the bolt face, the firing pin hole has been slightly chamfered. Dunno what idiot did that but as I bought the rifle brand new, it had to have come from the factory that way. I've run some seriously stiff loads through that rifle so apparently that chamfer job did not harm but it bothers me knowing it's there.
Paul B.


Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
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Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16477838 09/28/21
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You guys are going to hurt my feelers. I love the old 740 that belonged to my dad. And he loved that gun. He called it lightin'...not because it was fast, but because it never struck the same place twice!

Just for spite, think I'll load up some of his old 180gr Hornady RNs (pre-interlock) and go shoot some hogs!

Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: southtexas] #16478296 09/28/21
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jwall Offline
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I'm serious,

Have FUN. Shoot twice for insurance LOL


Jerry


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A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16478348 09/28/21
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You can’t make a 308 an ‘06
You can’t make an ‘06 a 300 mag

Why run on the edge? An unexpected change could put you in dangerous territory.


...
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Rifles And More] #16478442 09/28/21
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jwall Offline
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Well, you can always just shoot Factory Ammo.


Jerry


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: jwall] #16478947 09/28/21
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Mule Deer Offline
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Originally Posted by jwall
Well, you can always just shoot Factory Ammo.


Jerry


If you can buy it. That said, just by chance I've picked up 4 boxes of "reasonably" priced .308 factory ammo in the past week, 2 of (new Remington!) 180-grain Core-Lokts, and 2 of 165-grain Hornady American Whitetail.

But must also note, as an aside, that obviously many handloaders still place too much faith in primer appearance as a "pressure sign." Flattened and "cratered" primers don't necessarily mean anything, especially factory ammo--as I pointed out in my still-pinned essay on primer appearance at the top of this page. But old myths die hard....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16478991 09/28/21
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Earlyagain Offline
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How long until someone invents a home hobby pressure tester?
:-)

Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Mule Deer] #16479257 09/28/21
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navlav8r Offline
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by jwall
Well, you can always just shoot Factory Ammo.


Jerry


If you can buy it. That said, just by chance I've picked up 4 boxes of "reasonably" priced .308 factory ammo in the past week, 2 of (new Remington!) 180-grain Core-Lokts, and 2 of 165-grain Hornady American Whitetail.

But must also note, as an aside, that obviously many handloaded still place too much faith in primer appearance as a "pressure sign." Flattened and "cratered" primers don't necessarily mean anything, especially factory ammo--as I pointed out in my still-pinned essay on primer appearance at the top of this page. But old myths die hard....


I got my first lesson on primer appearance with my second 243, a Remington Varmint Special. I had been handloading another 243 for for several years before my wife gave it to me for Christmas in ‘73. With starting loads I was getting flattened primers so I was a bit confused. I kept reducing the loads with the same flattened primers. Hmmmm?

A year or two later I read an article about a little excess headspace (with the rifle’s chamber or created with sizing techniques) giving false high pressure “signs”, i.e. flattened primers due to riveting as the case backs up on a primer that backs out slightly on primer ignition. That led me to neck size some cases…problem solved. Since then I’ve been using the technique of sizing cases just enough to give slight “feel” on chambering a round especially with that rifle.


NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Earlyagain] #16479337 09/28/21
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Originally Posted by Earlyagain
How long until someone invents a home hobby pressure tester?
:-)


There have been strain-gauge systems available for quite a while now, but they cost more than most "home hobby" handloaders are willing to spend.

I've known at least two people who tried to develop a far more affordable system. One actually brought his to market, and sent me one to try. It failed miserably.

The other contacted me while he was developing his system, and since he knew what he was doing it worked. But he eventually decided that bringing it to market would cost more than he wanted to risk, since this was about the time he retired. Asked him a couple times about what was happening with it, but by then he was too busy (and happy) designing, making and shooting sophisticated model rockets into the stratosphere.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: navlav8r] #16479389 09/28/21
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navlav8r

Your last process mentioned is exactly what I’ve been doing with
Belted Mag cases since my first one. @ 1978.

No separation ring (incipient case separation) and long case life.
MANY bellyache about Belted cases for that reason. It’s been no
secret HOW to size belted cases for at least 40 yrs.
I guess some never learn OR read. ( Not referring to you )

As you know it works.

Jerry


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap

Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16479500 09/28/21
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Earlyagain Offline
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The chronograph and magnetic or radar gauges seem very satisfactory.

I'm thinking that some form of instrument will find its way into select gun writers shops eventually. Or maybe someone will set up a lab/mail correspondence service.

Re: 30-06 Pressure [Re: Jevyod] #16479803 09/28/21
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Many years ago, Powley made a device that was mounted in place of a rifle scope. It had a sliding mass that crushed a lead pellet. I don't think it worked out too well, given the variables it didn't take into account.

About 10-15 years ago, Steve Faber marketed a simple peak reading strain gauge system. It gave an answer in microstrains. That is easily converted to pressure with the Hoop Strain Equation. I still have that around somewhere.

I built myself a dual trace strain gauge system a few years ago, so that I could simultaneously see what was going on in two places in the barrel. It gave two graphs, and, like Steve Faber's device, did not have the strain to pressure conversion built in. Sadly, it didn't reveal anything earth shattering. But it was fun.

As long as you are operating below the plateau point, where more powder increases variation but not velocity, your chronograph is as good an indicator as you are likely to need. MV is VERY highly correlated with peak pressure.


de W7DB
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