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Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: Fury01] #16523159 10/13/21
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Originally Posted by Fury01
Thanks Indy for the quote by Mr. Page. A better way of saying the same thing is to say that smaller caliber rifles when shot by humans generally yield more accurate results than larger bore rifles when shot by humans. That being because of "due to less leaping, torqueing, and blasting" as he suggested. Agreed.
Also we know from many sources that larger bore rifles that shoot at what is a lessor velocity, suffer far less Throat erosion and sustained barrel heat than the 308 and 223's of the world shooting at 2800-3100 FPS and we know why that is so.
All that seems to lead us down the path that the .458 change in Accuracy that George experiences is not because of the Cartridge and it's level of accuracy. Like most things, George can be the example that lies at the end of the Bell curve and his .458 guns do lose accuracy. If so, I would suggest again that is not the fault of the caliber. It could be the what he shoots; example a sandpaper coated bullet, or cleaning regime, example; using diamond paste and a hand powered drill to clean with, or shooting them until the barrel is very hot and continuing to shoot them. These are just examples ideas intended to show only the direction of the problem not a description of the actual problem. I have no idea what besets George's Big bore rifles or why his results are what they are. I simply disagree about the accuracy potential of the .458 WM and wish him well.



You sound like that Fauci.

BP-B2

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16523460 10/13/21
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Well I tried fellows. Won't make that mistake again.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: Fury01] #16523674 10/13/21
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Originally Posted by Fury01
Well I tried fellows. Won't make that mistake again.


Never let a douche bag win



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16524167 10/13/21
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swiftsh!tt is a cranky little basturd for shore . know need to be an a$$ just to prove a point

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16525389 10/13/21
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Don't own one but have a 45-70 with 405 grain slugs and about 55 grains of H4895. I suspect its kick is pretty close to a 458. One gets a serious punch and can feel the rifle torque as well. Would like to drop a deep woods elk and perhaps a moose with it. Rumor has it one can eat right to the bullet hole.

Have a 45-90 too, but have not loaded up the 540 grain slugs yet. Should be pleasant to shoot as the rifle weighs 15 lbs.


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Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16525942 10/14/21
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Elmer Keith was the fellow who made “eat right up to the hole” famous and Elmer was right about many things. I loved the story about him winning the target shoot match with his old 45-70 Buffalo rifle shooting lead and black laying over the fender of an old car.

Last edited by Fury01; 10/14/21.
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: Fury01] #16526105 10/14/21
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Being within a couple months of my 86 birthday, and having suffered a severe bout of arthritis last winter, from which I'm still recuperating, I've toned down my loads for the .458 Win to ~40 ft-lbs recoil from upwards of ~60 a couple of years ago. And I still aim to get a consistent MOA, or less, for all my hunting loads in the .458 and 9.3 x 62. I could post pictures here but I do those in my blogs.

My take on Swiftshot is that he has overdone his shooting of .458 Lotts, and no longer can he mentally or emotionally sustain the wack he knows he'll get. I've not been shooting nearly as much at the range over the past couple of years as previously, and have to mentally prepare myself for the wack I'll get every time I pull the trigger.

For over twenty years I mostly shot "hot loads" in my .45-70s, including a Ruger #1 with a long throat that was equal to a 22" .458 Win in ballistics. That rifle with scope and a few cartridges in a buttstock cartridge holder only weighed 8.6 lbs, and recoil was up to nearly 70 ft-lbs so anything below 50 seemed mild to me. That was until I reached age 80 or so. Then due to concern over my one good eye I decided to trade my beloved Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT for a .458 Win in a Ruger #1 that weighed two more pounds to tone down felt recoil. I did that and then Covid hit us that hampered shooting at the range... and then the arthritis attack.

So my takeaway is what I already knew, and what most experts already were saying, that to stay in the game of shooting any hard recoiling rifle we must shoot them often but not overdo it! I think Swiftshot has overdone it, with apologies.

Bob
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"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: CZ550] #16526323 10/14/21
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I now rarely shoot full loads with my 458's.I remember when I used to shoot full loads exclusively and then getting a concussion from it.One year I was trying to cross a somewhat busy street but had difficulty.I had other issues as well-one was blocked nasal passages when lying down.I shoot at least 50, 458 Lott loads with 28grs of AA5744 behind a 500gr bullet almost every week now.The last time I shot them I was at an indoor range a chick got scared of the noise and the range monitor gets thrill in telling everyone "he is shooting an elephant gun".

Last edited by swiftshot; 10/14/21.
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16533147 10/16/21
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Originally Posted by mooshoo
I love this rifle a Winchester model 70 in 458 and I want to use it for Wyoming antelope and Utah mule deer. just going to use the open sights, any good load ideas.


A good all-around load for longer ranges is the 300gr TSX at about 2750 fps. That's accurate in my rifle seated at 3.324" COL (crimped in bottom groove) over 75 grains H4198, ignited by WLRM primers in Rem or Hornady cases.

Or, a more modest load of a 400gr Speer (or 405 Remington) at around 2100 fps (75 grains of RL-15) is very accurate in my Ruger #1.

Then for close work, a 400gr Speer at 1600 to 1800 fps over a modest dose of A5744 will work on any deer to 200 yards or so with some holdover. That simulates a good load from an 1895 Marlin in .45-70.

Bob
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"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: CZ550] #16533162 10/16/21
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Swiftshot's load of 28 grains of AA5744 under a 500gr would be very, very modest as to MV and recoil from his .458 Lott. I'd expect not more than 1100 fps an d recoil at a very, very modest 14 ft-lbs (about the same as a .243 Winchester shooting a 100gr).

Bob
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"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

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Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: CZ550] #16533395 10/16/21
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As a further insight to any deer load: My current Ruger #1 load for the .458 is 75 grains of RL-15 behind either a 405gr Remington or 400gr Barnes Buster. They both shoot about 2100 fps and same poi at 100 yards. That is my current "bear load". The reason for 75 grains is that it nearly fills the case behind those bullets seated to 3.262" COL for the 405 Rem and 3.295" COL for the 400 Barnes Buster. I'm not messing with reduced loads in using a relatively slow powder. If I wanted more velocity, I'd use a faster powder like H4198, H335, A2230 or even H4895. I could easily push them to 2500 fps. But what's the point? I'm not hunting elephant! And, apart from the 400 Buster, the 400 Speer and 405 Remington are not built for MV speeds much past 2000 fps for impact velocity below that. The Rem is better than the Speer in that regard. But either will get the job done on whitetails or mule deer at around 1100 fps impact, or even less.

But I will load 75 grains of RL-17 behind the 400 Speer and 405 Rem as that should slow MV by about 200 fps from 75 grains of RL-15. I've already tested the 405gr Rem over 75 grains of RL-22 for slightly over 1500 fps. So it appears that the spread in MV between RL- 15 and RL-22 is -600 fps when loaded with the same amount of powder. RL-17 is not midway, but I'm thinking it might reduce MV by about 200 fps from the RL-15 load when the same amount of RL-17 is used - 75 grains. Why? Same as the answer above: not to mess with reduced powder charges, and giving an approximate MV for a 400 Speer I used from an 1895 Marlin in .45-70 on my first bear.

Arguments against? Use of more powder means more expense and more recoil? True, but when calculated against A5744, I paid 50% more for a can of 5744 than for the RL series which I already have on hand. As to more recoil, it amounts to 24 ft-lbs vs 19.5 ft-lbs. For myself, either is more than tolerable as that would represent the difference between well loaded .30-06's and .308 Winchesters. In other words, it's not currently a consideration, nor is the minimal extra cost of powder usage that might be incurred as I'll not be shooting dozens of rounds anyway for practice of sight-in. A few will suffice to discover if I want to use that combination of powder and bullet for an accurate, reduced load. The current load of the 405 Rem and 400 Buster is near ideal for the purposes intended, and have proven themselves to be consistently accurate.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Last edited by CZ550; 10/16/21.

"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16533440 10/16/21
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I don't understand why anyone would waste time and money shooting 50 shots with a .458 Lott every week, whether squib loads or real loads.

After I got sighted in, I didn't fire my .458 Winchester except to check zero or when hunting. Any skill you can get from "practicing" is directly transferrable from smaller calibers. Except for handling recoil.

I recommend lioading five hunting rounds and five without powder or primers. Put all 10 in your pocket and then shoot offhand, single loading one at a time without looking at or feeling the primer pocket. That will tell you how bad your flinch is.

The best load I found for African dangerous game was 72 grains of AA2230 wth a 450 grain bullet (TSX or North Fork), F215 primers. Velocity was 2250 fps. North Fork 450 grain flat-point solids will penetrate deeper than 500 grain round noses due to the cavitation effect. Recoil was noticeably less than 500 grain loads at 2200 fps.

The effects of recoil are not well understood. Not only might it make you flinch but also lengthens the time beween shots, due to muzzle rise.


Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16533825 10/16/21
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"I don't understand why anyone would waste time and money shooting 50 shots with a .458 Lott every week, whether squib loads or real loads."

For one thing I enjoy shooting it and it lets me practice with the same rifle I will use to go hunting or shoot with at a big bore rifle shoot.

It is one of three rifles I shoot weekly.The other two are a 308 and a rimfire.I've been shooting the 308 for years and I can shoot it really well but the 458 with light loads is more difficult to master.It could be because of the louder bang, greater recoil and heavier trigger.The rifle balances entirely different as well.I also get to practice bolt cycle and loading.I find I am shooting better and better with it and would have been left behind if I thought the 308 or the rimfire were sufficient for practice.Shooting offhand, with open sights consistently accurate at 50yds is a big challenge for me.

Last edited by swiftshot; 10/16/21.
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: CZ550] #16536429 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by CZ550
Swiftshot's load of 28 grains of AA5744 under a 500gr would be very, very modest as to MV and recoil from his .458 Lott. I'd expect not more than 1100 fps an d recoil at a very, very modest 14 ft-lbs (about the same as a .243 Winchester shooting a 100gr).
heavy)

And that load is “slow” recoil compared to the 243 and quiet compared to full loads. All making shooting them easy to do and enjoy.
Very few things more pleasant to shoot than big bores so loaded.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16536859 10/17/21
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My 308 practice load is like my 458-a reduced load but much lower recoil and much quiter.The recoil of the light load 458 feels heavy when I shoot it after shooting the light 308 and rimfire but feels very light when I shoot it from the bench after shooting a 458 Lott using regular starting loads.

Last edited by swiftshot; 10/17/21.
Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: Fury01] #16542569 10/19/21
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Originally Posted by Fury01
Originally Posted by CZ550
Swiftshot's load of 28 grains of AA5744 under a 500gr would be very, very modest as to MV and recoil from his .458 Lott. I'd expect not more than 1100 fps an d recoil at a very, very modest 14 ft-lbs (about the same as a .243 Winchester shooting a 100gr).
heavy)

And that load is “slow” recoil compared to the 243 and quiet compared to full loads. All making shooting them easy to do and enjoy.
Very few things more pleasant to shoot than big bores so loaded.


Fully agree! I almost mentioned the "slower recoil" factor but thought I'd said too much already. The quiet factor I didn't know about but believe you as the "bang" we hear is related to muzzle pressure being released, so that is likely true since the muzzle pressure of a 500gr/.458 at around 1100 fps would, indeed, be much less than a .243 at normal psi.

Bob
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"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: CZ550] #16542606 10/19/21
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And, I'll also mention that reducing the noise factor also reduces the sense of recoil. I know that from the difference in using the best ear protection at the range vs adequate!

This past week I went to a "new" logging road which ultimately descended into a gorge. There I fired my "bear load" of the 405gr Rem at 2100 fps from offhand into a smallish hardwood at about 40 yards. But I had my ear muffs on a clip from a small strap around my neck. I put them on before I fired and amazingly the recoil was totally pleasant! It was like... puffffish. But physics said it hit me with 32 ft-lbs of kinetic energy, yet it was just a slightly heavy push like sportsmen give one another when they've scored a goal.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Commit everything you do to the LORD. Trust him, and he will help you." (NIV) - King David in Psalm 37, verse 5.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16542673 10/19/21
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Yep Bob; Starting new shooters on Quiet loads is probably the best gift you can give to the odds of them continuing on as a shooter. Of course adding ear protection always. In the Kinetic energy Equation, Velocity is squared and mass is simply multiplied. Fast or slow recoil matters to the shooter. I can certainly tell the difference. That is why heavy guns "soak" up recoil and light ones really "kick." It's the speed they hit you at. The load in the barrel was the same.

Re: bought a 458 win mag [Re: mooshoo] #16544650 10/19/21
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Originally Posted by mooshoo
I love this rifle a Winchester model 70 in 458 and I want to use it for Wyoming antelope and Utah mule deer. just going to use the open sights, any good load ideas.

I wouldn't advise that, you'll be WAY under gunned.


l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right.
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