Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 10mm 180 FMJ for woods protection

I have several boxes of 180gr FMJ flat nose that are rated at 1230fps and wondering if it is enough for black bear and such. No grizzly where I hunt yet. I have looked high and low for 200gr hard cast and nothing is available right now. The only thing close to it is Buffalo Bore 10mm 190gr mono-metal. Any other ideas?

If that's what I had, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep. If you can't get it done with that, I doubt a different load is going to be the deciding factor. It will always come down to where the bullet is placed, not the bullet you chose (within reason of course).

Yes, load up and call it a day!

^^^This^^^

I prefer the Buffalo Bore 220 gr Hard Cast Outdoorsman Load. But I wouldn’t hesitate to use your License ad ifhats all I had.
Especially if Grizzlies are not a consideration

Mackay Sagebrush is selling 200 grain Hardcast Flat Point in the Classifieds.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...29/10mm-bear-predator-loads#Post16524029

There's nothing in Nebraska, save perhaps bison or elk, where a 180/10mm load couldn't do the job.

Unless you won't be in Nebraska................

Even a black bear or a cougar will drop quickly enough with a 180 out of a 10mm.

That would be a great load !

^^^^^

This. Yep.

Damned bears were all over the place where we were hiking last month. We literally walked outside the place we were staying and 50 feet out the door, some danged bear was leaving his calling card in the yard. Day and night there were multiple bears either getting into the trash or leaving berry piles on the lawn, or up and down the road. Funny thing is we never saw them as we were hiking, but we would come back a couple hours later and there would be a fresh pile on the lawn.

I kept the 10mm with a light attached in room for night time duties and carried a 1911 .45 ACP with +P 250 grain hard cast flat points at 950+FPS as my carry gun on that particular weekend.







I figured either load would take care of Mr. Grumpy Bear nicely.

I need to get some of your ammunition

Enough for black bears? I’d say so! Pretty near ideal actually. We live in “bear country “. No grizz, just blacks. A bird feeder on the deck won’t last a week. As they are pretty secretive, we almost never see them. I typically carry a 9mm, but bears are of little concern. People just go about their business and bears do the same.

It's OK to use a quality hollow point. Really, it is. This notion of solids only for dangerous game is an internet farce. Solids are required for dangerous game in Africa because the size of the animals is so extreme and hide/bones so tough. Shots on these animals require very precise shot placement, typically brain - even in self defense situations.

Hollow points are designed to inflict maximum damage and energy transfer. Most hunting regulations forbid non-expanding bullets of any type for hunting...because they don't kill game effectively. Where allowed, the military chooses hollow points for missions because they are significantly more effective than FMJ's on adversaries. Yet we have this internet notion that animals that are going to eat us, and must be stopped with some sort of solid bullet. If solids are so effective, why don't we use them on two legged threats? There's no vital in a black bear that's more than 15" under the skin from any direction when he's positioned in a threatening way. Almost every reputable expanding bullet these days penetrates 15" in gel tests. I know gel tests are not real world, not even close, but it's one perspective. If something is gnawing on me, I want immediate damage to vitals or CNS. I don't care if the bullets comes out the other side. I'm not tracking some blood trail.

Sure, caliber matters too. Someone will say a 44mag, with a 300gr. lead hard cast doing 1200fps with a meplate of 0.4" is the ticket. Sure, it also has 50% more energy of a hot 10mm.

For me, when I'm in the mountains in CO, I carry a 10mm with 200grain XTP's in everything but the G29 (which is absolute last resort woods carry gun), which gets 200grain lead hard cast. The only reason the LHC is carried in the G29 is due to the short barrel, the velocity of copper bullets (more barrel resistance) is not much better than a 40SW. Lead bullets are about 50-100fps faster and produce a measurable increase in energy. For me, I want full energy transfer to the target, penetration to at least 20" (heavy bullets help), and bullet construction that will expand, but not break apart. Getting that penetration from a heavy expanding bullet requires hot 357's, 41's, 10mm's or 44mags.

Please identify ANY commercially produced hollow point/jacket/gilded construction pistol bullet that matches the deep digging potential of a properly created hardcast slug.
Energy transfer? Bah.
Attacking animals lead with their head.
Better have something that does more than ring the bell. It needs to get inside.
Even ball or fmj will increase the drilling potential over a hp. That includes a clogged one.

I've tested quite a few projectiles in various calibers and sabot combos through BP inline rifles where velocities can be pushed well above standard handgun speeds.
The XTP/XTP Mag were poor.
Blown them apart on deer necks. And that is not a tough medium compared to any bear's grill.

Yes, higher speeds cause issues as most jhp's have a velocity window. But slower speeds (handgun) bring their own inherent weaknesses.

How many big large animals have you taken with hollow points.
I've killed a bunch with flat point hard cast and had plenty of tissue destruction.

Much better than a dull stick....unless you have a major league swing! You’d be much better served with a heavier, wide metplat bullet, provided it feeds reliably ....but, if that’s all ya got! memtb

Every single one of them. Probably 40+ deer, A dozen elk. Hundreds of small game.
And no where did I say that LHC doesn't work, I said the notion of solids ONLY is an internet farce. Keep using your solids.

I forgot to add, hollow points and soft points, bounce off animals. All the animals killed by them over the last 100 years are in the same file as the fake moon landing. How easily I forget. Must be the same reason why PETA led divisions of wildlife require them in the hunting regulations, it's safer for the cute animals.

What's in your CCW, lead hard cast? Cant have those whimsical HP's bouncing off biker jackets, getting clogged on cotton white tank tops and fat man grizzle.

XTP is a pistol bullet btw. I'd expect it to fail at rifle velocities...so would the manufacturer.

I've taken bison, grizzly, Asian Buffalo all with flat point hardcast and no way would try some of those animals with a hollow point.

I've seen XTPs fail to expand at 1400 FPS I'll take a quality flat point hard cast any day

Deer are not large heavy game v

Neither is a typical black bear.

Knowledgeable handgun hunters do not use, OK very rarely use JHP’s on large dangerous animals, though, most Black Bears are not extremely large....however, it only requires one large bear if you are the object of it’s affection!

Also, knowledgeable handgun hunters, understand the ft/pounds of energy at typical handgun velocities means near nothing. It’s penetration, penetration, penetration......equating to greater tissue destruction were it is needed! Shallow, large surface wounds, mean little.....ya gotta get to the vitals, and break, tear, and damage stuff!

For a very good description of what the use of the “wrong tool for the job” will do for you.....read Larry Kelly’s (renowned handgun hunter) story of his Alaskan bear encounter using a 44 Magnum loaded with JHPs. 6 (I think) rounds fired at close range .....none of which penetrated to the bears vitals! Had it not been for the guides .375 H&H and the bear electing to turn and run at the last moment.....forensic experts would have been telling the story! memtb

OMG can you imagine a HP bullet that acts like a solid!???? WTF???? Total failure, yup better pick the solid, because a HP that acts like a solid is bad. So then solids are bad right?

Handgun hunting is different than defensive handgun use against animals. You pick your shot when hunting. I've shot deer with 44mag, 240gr HP, left a fist size hole on the back side. I'd have rather used a solid and kept more meat.

This notion of penetration is valid, but only sometimes. You have to stop the threat, that does not require penetration per se, it requires a vital hit (heart, CNS, pelvis). We all know that, same for two legged vermin. Penetration does not make that hit any easier. It just means that if the shot angle isn't exact, you stand a better chance of getting to the vitals. A black bear does not require 48" of penetration. Period. I want maximum damage on the way to the vital. I don't care if the bullet comes out the other side or not.

Alaskan brown bear, Cape buffalo, bison, sure, all require something more powerful than a 10. No doubt. The OP specifically said BLACK BEAR.

Hell yes to the bolded quote. This notion of penetration is valid always and for the very reason you stated, to reach and destroy vital organs, CNS, bones, ect. Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen and all else is gravy.

I'd use a flat point hard cast on black bear in a New York mini second

I'd use a flat point hard cast on black bear in a New York mini second






It dam sure was a total failure as pentration sucked. This idea that a non expanding hollow point works like a flat is not correct

Typical where?

Exactly! If one has the opportunity to place the shot....a hollow point, neatly placed behind the shoulder, avoiding major muscle and bone with minimal distance require to the vitals is devastating! If any or at least many of the aforementioned criteria are not met....the odds of devastating tissue damage are highly reduced! memtb

Another bullet out there for the 10mm is Underwood's extreme penetrator. It is only 140gr if I remember but there was a video of it making full penetration on bullet proof glass. Not sure if due to a light weight it would have deflection problems. Has anyone tried these out?

Just to stir the pot on hollow points . This is a 230 black talon from a 45acp that went through both shoulders of a whitetail at 30 yards , give or take

I do use a lot of hardcast though . So I’m staying neutral

How big was the deer?

I have seen XTP's from .44M revolver not exit small bodied southern whitetails. Multiple hits. Dug them out, poor expansion.
Have seen XTP Mags flat come apart in heavier northeastern whitetail necks. No exit. Revolver and BP rifle.
I've tried lots of velocities and JHP's over the years. Burned a lot of powder and primers.
JHP has shown me no "stopping" advantages over HC/FMJ on unwounded live game or animals firsthand, including attacking dogs. Multiple hits required in most cases.

CCW for self defense against two legged varmints? JHP so to reduce overpenetration potential and maybe reduce unintended wounding distance after impact.
Carrying in bad animal country? Hard cast. And it is a larger diameter and caliber. Second choice is FMJ flat point, not JHP.

I must be doing something wrong. I first shot a deer with a .44 magnum, 240 grain hollowpoint, almost fifty years ago. Since then, I've killed a number more with 240grain hollowpoints out of .44 magnums, as well as with 210 grain hollowpoints from .41 magnums and a plethora of rifles from .22 rimfire to .45-70. I don't think I've ever blown a fist-sized hole out the back side of a deer with any of that stuff.

cra1948, Not my statement! I’ve never shot a jacketed bullet in either of my 44 mags! 😉 memtb

I was recently doing some shooting of the 1911 with the target tacked onto the side of a 16 inch douglas fir stump. We ran a few mags of 38 Super 115 gr Berry's plated RN through the gun.

Then I changed targets and put the 10mm barrel on the pistol. Two mags of Berry's 180 gr FP over 6.5 gr Universal went through and through the stump with every shot. That's pretty decent penetration.

I recently purchased 300 Hunters Supply 200 gr FP cast in 10mm. They seem to be still available for reloaders.
https://hunters-supply.com/401-cal-200-p-2030.html

Looking for loaded ammunition? This might cover your needs.
https://choiceammunition.com/produc...cast-choice-bear-defense100-hand-loaded/

Just out of curiosity, I checked into that site.

The ammo is 37 bucks (36.99) for 20 rounds. They then wanted $24.43 for ground shipping to my address. For 20 rounds. Shipping is most certainly expensive, but dang.

That's 61.43 for 20 rounds. Over $3 every trigger pull. Ouch.

I dug this 200gr XTP out of a 54" bull moose....


I walked in on him, thinking he was already dead. Nope!

I shot him several times at less than 20 yards. Trust me; it sounds like a lot more fun than actually was.

The 200gr XTPs were propelled by 12.5gr of AA #9, and launched out of 5.25" XDm, for 1200+ fps. This bullet was recovered from the near side lung, not much penetration. I didn't dig around for any of the other 10mm bullets, but based on the condition of the far-side lung, it's safe to say that none of the other bullets made it that far.

Use whatever bullet/ammunition/handgun combination you'd like, but I don't plan to carry any more hollow points in my handgun, when I'm venturing into the woods with big critters.

By the way, here is a 168gr T-TSX that I pulled out of the same moose. It was a 140yd, broadside shot, out of .300 Win Mag. The bullet went through the shoulder, a couple of ribs, and came to rest on the far-side shoulder blade. It lost a couple of pedals, but otherwise opened up nicely.


Here is the offending moose, fat guy added for scale:

Nice moose. XTP's sometimes expand perfectly and other batches either shred shrapnel or do not expand.
The only 400 grain from a 475L at 1300 FPS that was caught in a deer was a XTP without the rifling marks you couldn't tell it had been fired. No way a deer should ever catch a 400 grain bullet like that

Yes, one would have to be desperate to purchase there.

Those prices would motivate some to take up handloading.

Makes me appreciate the two 1/2 gallon jugs full of 200 gr cast bullets on my shelf made with a mold loaned to me by our mutual friend.

GG is spot on, 180 fmj will work just fine. Bullet placement is what's important. Break those shoulders down and then walk up put a finisher in the top of the skull. But if you want to scare it off, a pellet rifle to the hind end will give them a direct coralation. Birdfeeder means pain.

Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny

Sounds like you have a useful test going on there. Be interesting to see how the XTP works out. If it makes it through two skulls, I'll say that was more than sufficient to hit the vitals in a black bear. If not, others here may have a valid point about the hard cast.

Not specifically 10mm, however this is relevant to the topic on hand.

This was written by John Linebaugh a number of years back and is an example of the typical performance one can expect of a properly cast, hard cast flat point or semi wadcutter type bullet.

I have seen my wife shoot two or three mule deer and about eight antelope now with a .45 Colt. The load she has used almost exclusively for seven years now is a 260 Keith slug at 900 fps out of a 4 3/4" Seville revolver. This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.

It kills in my estimation better than a .270 or .30-06 class rifle as it acts a lot like an arrow and doesn't excite the animal. No whistles or bells, just honest consistent performance.

I have used this load on two antelope with exacting results. In my early hunting years I used the same 260 gr Keith at 1,400 fps. out of a dozen antelope and one mule deer I have personally taken I can't see that it stops them one bit better than the 900 fps load. Why, well history will tell us, as Elmer said. Once you shoot completely through your intended target you've done all you can do


It is the perfect example of why the vast majority of experienced handgun hunters use a hard cast bullet for large game hunting and/or large animal defense. I am not talking about medium game like a 100 pound Whitetail, but bigger animals like large Mule Deer. Moose, Bears, etc.

FMJ is not a good choice. The round nose tends to slip through flesh causing very little permanent damage, unless something structural is hit. I have shot jackrabbits with 9mm, 10mm and .45 FMJ and had them hump up for a second, then run off with no immediate effect. Switching to a semi wadcutter, or any other profile with a large flat face/large meplat produces substantially better results with immediate visible effects on the animal when shot. The only thing I would hope to use FMJ for on a large animal is for a CNS shot, trying to shut down the brain. But in emergencies, you don't get to pick your shots, you get what you get and you may never actually have that opportunity, or you may never actually connect with your shots for various reasons. The realities of shooting in the field/combat/defense are not at all like being on a range.

^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ memtb

Yes indeed spot on

Dont know about 180gr fmj's in 10mm, you didnt say if you hand load or not, do know i loaded up some 140gr Lehighs to 1550 fps in my DW 1911 10mm, i took two big old bath towels and wrapped a cow femur bone, zipped tied the towels securley in place, there may have been at least 40 layers of cotton towel around that bone, stood in the floor of a utility trailer and fired down on the center of the wrap, at the shot the bundle flipped up off the ground three feet in the air, the ties snapped, i could see bone fragments in the new dirt hole blasted in the ground, unwrapped the wad, a thumb sized hole was bored completely through the bone, i took a pic and sent it to JWP475, got his thumbs up approval on the test, not live green bone and real hide i know, but i'd have no hesitation using that one anything in an effort for it to find something else to do but jack with me, recoil is milder than you's expect and it runs like a fresh oiled sewing machine in the pistol.

All that said, you can call Montana Bullet Works, they'll sell you 250 coated 200gr flat nosed bullets cast harder than a whores heart for iirc 45 bucks shipped, i bought 500 for my 10mm, they run great, are accurate and have a plenty big enough meplat, i carry those easing up the mountain in ideally a north wind in the dark with my bow, big black bears, boar and mountain lions live up there, it's a mighty comforting set up to have along, i have no experience with charges and such, but have heard getting close and surprising any one of those animals could cause a charge, and that's exactly what could happen easing up a damp mountain road with a good wind in your face at dark thirty.

This is my point, and sincerely not trying to argue this. I do occasioanlly carry LHC and do see merits in it. My concern is that we are missing the bigger picture on this topic, and that is stopping the threat. If something is gnawing on me...and I mean literally, whether or not the bullet exits is irrelevant. What is relevant is the gnawing stops as soon as I pull the trigger. That only happens if a CNS/vital is hit. Period. That's what stops it, nothing else. A bullet coming out the back end of a bear and ripping through intestines isn't relevant. And a bear can't be gwaning on me if his ass is facing me, so shooting lengthwise ass-to-head isn't necessary.

If possible, I'd prefer a bullet that entered and exploded; all energy used to turn the insides into mush. Guaranteed CNS/vital hit. Like a grenade, close enough would count. Obviously this doesn't exist in civilian handguns. I want something to penetrate about 18 inches and do as much damage as possible along the way. (We are talking black bear, that was the OP's threat.) If it goes through the animal, great, if not, great. It should penetrate 18" regardless of bone, grizzle, and hair. And it should be as wide a wound channel as possible, as wide as possible to increase chances of hitting a vital.

I agree FMJ's are not designed for this situation, they may work, but lead hardness varies, jacket thickness varies, etc. I will say, they generally penetrate very well in my limited testing - they will shoot through trees more reliably than LHC or XTP's. A tree is not an animal, I get that. LHC also penetrates well, but as to terminal damage, it's open for (my personal) debate. It's never been legal to hunt with where I've hunted the last 35 years. I've shot deer with 200gr. 10mm XTP's at 1200fps and the bullet went through every time and made a substantial wound channel. Often hitting ribs on entrance and exit. It performed perfectly, hence my thinking on black bear. I've never shot a bear or elk or moose with one. I think few, if any, of us have. DanInAlaska's anecdotal evidence is compelling about how well they work on big game, or not work as he points out.

While I've never had an XTP fail, fail in terms of penetration on big deer sized game. I've never found them after a kill as they penetrated fully, so can't say they opened up or not. I do know the exit wound was typically a pleasant 1 to 1-1/2" hole. (talking 10mm).

A bear 69 position... I could see a bear happily going about his business of chewing the chit out of a feller and stepping around you while he tries various bites on the anatomy of his victim.

I have no experience in a situation like this - and hope I never do. I carry a 10mm auto 'just in case' and my thinking is that I will pull the trigger as many times as possible as quickly as possible with out analyzing bullet performance after each shot. I carry 200gr hard cast. My thinking is that if I can manage to shoot all the way through a bear 10 or 12 or 15 times (hopefully) then twice as many holes can't hurt. If I can shoot through his skull then into his body because of 'too much penetration' how is that a negative?

I have often wondered about the Underwood extreme penetrators also. Their descriptions sound like they would do it all. Who knows?

Ive shot a few deer w 180, 200 and 240 xtp.
They blew on through if out a ways ( broadside chest hits )
Used a couple for coup de grace and up close tbey came apart and were on offside hide or didnt make it that far ( 4" and 6" Smith 629s )

Think an XTP to be OK for deer but not perfect.
240s in Mz seemed to zip on through. Forget what the TC sabot stuff was. Same deal.

NEVER have I gotten a fist sized exit.

In fact, exits seem pretty small.

Sample size is under two dozen.

Tried the old Rem 240 gr JHP in sabot ( .44 cal in a .5O ).
Old days, 100gr of powder in MZ

Same deal, small in and out, nothing fantastic.

If I was gonna use a rig for something that might chew on me, would NOT be an XTP.

Granted, Ive not shot the 300 grainers. I disliked the recoil.
Broke my trigger pivot on my 4" 629 too.

As a future 10mm owner I was wondering about what bullets to try on deer.

Thanks G500, will check those you mentioned above 😊

Good post and a much needed dose of reality here. Congrats on the moose, top notch eating.

I'd like to know how one of those new 200gr A-Frames would do in comparison.