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Re: The case for trade school [Re: deflave] #16538185 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by pahick
Youd be surprised how many females went into welding. We hired a bunch right out of Hobart and Lincoln. Welders are hard to get. These seem pretty damn good at what they do.


I think you mean factory welders not welder, welders.

Production welders vs skilled trade welders. There is a difference.

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Re: The case for trade school [Re: Western_Juniper] #16538197 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by Western_Juniper
There is honest work in the trades, and there is the potential for high income. On the other hand:

Some of the trades have physical demands that many people cannot meet over a long career. One of my neighbors was a mechanic for a big commercial airline, and another one was A&P certified and worked in that trade for some time. The first one had to change careers in mid-life and switched to accounting for the last 15 years before he retired. The second went into plant management as he got older.

The trades are subject to economic cycles. A lot of them are not "recession-proof." I know guy who was a journeyman finish carpenter, but he switched to EMT>Paramedic>Firefighter after the last housing bust. He's recession proof now.

The trades come with low occupational prestige. I don't personally think less of plumbers or HVAC technicians, but our society does. The Harris Poll has been gauging "occupational prestige" since at least the 70's, and while the perception of some occupations have changed substantially, the trades have never garnered high esteem. I know welders that work in nuclear. They make more money than most doctors. Lots of tradesmen become contractors and own their own business and make a fortune. Even so, money can't buy 'class.' Just look at Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg.

Not everyone's goal for education is to "get a job." I would hope that there are some people, even a lot of people that don't make it the primary goal of their life to just hold a job and make money. Some people are fortunate to already have money, and others don't need a lot. Personally, I find no appeal at all in the politicians that sell their agenda as "job creation." I can think of a lot of things to do to keep people busy. That's not what I want out of life.

Tis the reason I didn't pursue my A&P after I left the military. A Toolmaker journeyman career was more attractive.

Re: The case for trade school [Re: AJ300MAG] #16538230 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by pahick
Youd be surprised how many females went into welding. We hired a bunch right out of Hobart and Lincoln. Welders are hard to get. These seem pretty damn good at what they do.


I think you mean factory welders not welder, welders.

Production welders vs skilled trade welders. There is a difference.



We used to have The Cannondale bike factory here, lots of women welders.
On one hand you could dismiss them as factory welders.

On the other, they TIG welded aluminum and titanium bike frames. Really thin
tubing some of the welds were pretty high stressed.

The ran a TIG torch in their dominant hand, a filler wire spool gun in their offhand. Kinda like MIG and oxy/acetylene simultaneously. A foot controlling the torch heat.

But, they weren't skilled or nothing!

Honestly though.
It's the only welding most could do.


I'm an American, we kneel to no man.
Only to God!

The Alabama section of Pennsylvania.
Where we cling to our God and Guns.
Re: The case for trade school [Re: Dillonbuck] #16538266 10/17/21
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Would you trust them to weld an attachment point for a safety harness up in the steel?

They "might" have the aptitude to make a good welder after the proper training...

Re: The case for trade school [Re: AJ300MAG] #16538284 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by AJ300MAG

Production welders vs skilled trade welders. There is a difference.



Considering what theyre building heads to the killing fields and saves lives...id say theyre skilled.

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Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538290 10/17/21
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It’s about money. Schools wanna get the most $$ per head.

I taught welding for a JuCo for 2 years.

Got to see the wizard behind the curtain.....

Bunch of BS. It’s all about money.

Ever been on a college campus where there is no construction going on? No new buildings going up?

School recruiters aren’t trying to fill trades classes.

Gotta be teachers, nurses, business majors, etc. hook em for 4 hrs or more.

Trades aren’t for everyone. No doubt. Just as academics aren’t for everyone.

But that’s the view of trades... “Johnny isnt good at chemistry, calculus, etc. Put him in a trade..”

Well, now Johnny is killing it working shutdowns, or whatever while you broke d!ck fuggers with a BS in world studies are working at Best Buy.





Dave

The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it. Lou Holtz



Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538293 10/17/21
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I know a female master plumber and electrician. She works by herself and only does VERY small residential jobs. She makes a minimum of $1,200 per day and bartends in addition.

Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 10/17/21.
Re: The case for trade school [Re: pahick] #16538376 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by pahick

Originally Posted by AJ300MAG

Production welders vs skilled trade welders. There is a difference.



Considering what theyre building heads to the killing fields and saves lives...id say theyre skilled.

Had a millwright friend of mine who worked at welding tank bodies at the warren tank plant before coming to work at GM as a MW apprentice. Sure as fúck wouldn't want a single-purpose welder doing a hot pierce on a gas train. YMMV...

Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538392 10/17/21
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Q did an 8000 apprenticeship as a toolmaker and ended up running the program, they could do worse

Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538449 10/17/21
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After college I went to school to become a machinist, earned an associate degree and later served a Tool & Diemaker Apprenticeship. Forty years as a journeyman Tool & Die Maker, I taught machine shop in high school and community college. The last few years after having topped out in the Tool & Die Maker payscale I was advanced to Manufacturing Engineering. My wages were in the top 1-2% nationally, so learning a trade was very rewarding, At retirement my salary was twice what my Phd. brother in law's was.

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Re: The case for trade school [Re: gunswizard] #16538459 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by gunswizard
After college I went to school to become a machinist, earned an associate degree and later served a Tool & Diemaker Apprenticeship. Forty years as a journeyman Tool & Die Maker, I taught machine shop in high school and community college. The last few years after having topped out in the Tool & Die Maker payscale I was advanced to Manufacturing Engineering. My wages were in the top 1-2% nationally, so learning a trade was very rewarding, At retirement my salary was twice what my Phd. brother in law's was.

Right now I work as a ME in composites. Not one single thing I do is related to Electrical Engineering. Trades got me interested into the science of things. Never dreamed I’d be where I am today.

I’m blessed and I know it.

Re: The case for trade school [Re: blanket] #16538474 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by blanket
Q did an 8000 apprenticeship as a toolmaker and ended up running the program, they could do worse


What does this mean?


A good conservative will give you the shirt off his back.

A good liberal will give you the shirt off someone else's back.

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538498 10/17/21
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They should have NEVER taken the Technical programs out of High School.
Welding and Machine shop are the only reasons I stayed in school and graduated.

When they took the Technical programs out of High School the took the intensives of 1/3rd of the students to stay in school.

this is only my thoughts but.
1/3rd of society are brainiac's and can work behind a desk.
1/3rd are competitive as in sports
&
1/3rd work with their hands Technician type work.

we need the brainiac's to figure stuff out
&
We need the Technical people to build the stuff the Brainiac's dream up.
I personally do not need the Sportsman types but that is just me.

I started shop in Middle School and Continued through High School and went right out of High School to a Fabrication Shop Hired practically threw my Welding Instructor in High School.
9 1/2 years of that and I became an Inspector.
Never stopped Fab'ing Steel and 32 years later I am Fab'ing Steel more than I am Inspecting because of the pay.

Bring the Tech. Programs back to High School and watch the Drop Out Rate decrease a bit because it will give 1/3rd of the Population more of a reason to stay in school.

Also My Experience with Women Welders is that they fight harder to get and keep their jobs and they are better welders than the men for the most part. That is just my experience though.

Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538499 10/17/21
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Having done both, they do not seem mutually exclusive to me.. I will be encouraging my grandkids to pick up a skill before they even consider a university education. They are both beneficial to your financial security and quality of life. Prestige is over rated; service to others is not.


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Re: The case for trade school [Re: funshooter] #16538504 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by funshooter
They should have NEVER taken the Technical programs out of High School.
Welding and Machine shop are the only reasons I stayed in school and graduated.

When they took the Technical programs out of High School the took the intensives of 1/3rd of the students to stay in school.

this is only my thoughts but.
1/3rd of society are brainiac's and can work behind a desk.
1/3rd are competitive as in sports
&
1/3rd work with their hands Technician type work.

we need the brainiac's to figure stuff out
&
We need the Technical people to build the stuff the Brainiac's dream up.
I personally do not need the Sportsman types but that is just me.

I started shop in Middle School and Continued through High School and went right out of High School to a Fabrication Shop Hired practically threw my Welding Instructor in High School.
9 1/2 years of that and I became an Inspector.
Never stopped Fab'ing Steel and 32 years later I am Fab'ing Steel more than I am Inspecting because of the pay.

Bring the Tech. Programs back to High School and watch the Drop Out Rate decrease a bit because it will give 1/3rd of the Population more of a reason to stay in school.

Also My Experience with Women Welders is that they fight harder to get and keep their jobs and they are better welders than the men for the most part. That is just my experience though.

I think that you overrate the brainiacs. I went to the second best university in my state MSU. I was wait listed to the best UM. It’s mostly just upper income kids pushed to go their but of average intelligence and average at best work ethic. An engineer is an engineer and tough to BS through and ditto for similar fields most everything else is BS.

Full disclosure “I have a high aptitude for learning” but am dyslexic as [bleep].

Re: The case for trade school [Re: TheLastLemming76] #16538525 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
Originally Posted by funshooter
They should have NEVER taken the Technical programs out of High School.
Welding and Machine shop are the only reasons I stayed in school and graduated.

When they took the Technical programs out of High School the took the intensives of 1/3rd of the students to stay in school.

this is only my thoughts but.
1/3rd of society are brainiac's and can work behind a desk.
1/3rd are competitive as in sports
&
1/3rd work with their hands Technician type work.

we need the brainiac's to figure stuff out
&
We need the Technical people to build the stuff the Brainiac's dream up.
I personally do not need the Sportsman types but that is just me.

I started shop in Middle School and Continued through High School and went right out of High School to a Fabrication Shop Hired practically threw my Welding Instructor in High School.
9 1/2 years of that and I became an Inspector.
Never stopped Fab'ing Steel and 32 years later I am Fab'ing Steel more than I am Inspecting because of the pay.

Bring the Tech. Programs back to High School and watch the Drop Out Rate decrease a bit because it will give 1/3rd of the Population more of a reason to stay in school.

Also My Experience with Women Welders is that they fight harder to get and keep their jobs and they are better welders than the men for the most part. That is just my experience though.

I think that you overrate the brainiacs. I went to the second best university in my state MSU. I was wait listed to the best UM. It’s mostly just upper income kids pushed to go their bit of average intelligence and average at best work ethic



Maybe so
But
I have been self employed for the better part of my life.
I am no business man. I do not know how to find the work. It has to come to me.
I have been Fired off of many jobs not because I can not do the work but because some co worker is a better Politician than I am.
I have never been able to get in the good old boys networks to get the good high paying jobs when I work for other company's. I have always managed to make the minimum wage for the trade I am doing.
So I became self employed and starve most of the time.
Now in my 60s I am getting tired with a body that is just about wore out.
So I fabricate steel when ever I get a job that calls me and work between 3 and 6 hours a day how ever long my body will hold out and I take the far and in between Inspection jobs that come my way.

I really wish that I had more of a Business mans mentality to go out and find the work.
Most guys I know that have went out and found the work have a real hard time getting paid after they finish the projects.
I have been very fortunate in that respect. I have only had a few jobs that refuse to pay me and then I do not work for that person any more.
Jobs are getting Farther and Farther apart and the revenue to survive is getting smaller and smaller Getting wore out sucks the big one but you just learn to do things differently.

Re: The case for trade school [Re: TheLastLemming76] #16538528 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
Originally Posted by funshooter
They should have NEVER taken the Technical programs out of High School.
Welding and Machine shop are the only reasons I stayed in school and graduated.

When they took the Technical programs out of High School the took the intensives of 1/3rd of the students to stay in school.

this is only my thoughts but.
1/3rd of society are brainiac's and can work behind a desk.
1/3rd are competitive as in sports
&
1/3rd work with their hands Technician type work.

we need the brainiac's to figure stuff out
&
We need the Technical people to build the stuff the Brainiac's dream up.
I personally do not need the Sportsman types but that is just me.

I started shop in Middle School and Continued through High School and went right out of High School to a Fabrication Shop Hired practically threw my Welding Instructor in High School.
9 1/2 years of that and I became an Inspector.
Never stopped Fab'ing Steel and 32 years later I am Fab'ing Steel more than I am Inspecting because of the pay.

Bring the Tech. Programs back to High School and watch the Drop Out Rate decrease a bit because it will give 1/3rd of the Population more of a reason to stay in school.

Also My Experience with Women Welders is that they fight harder to get and keep their jobs and they are better welders than the men for the most part. That is just my experience though.

I think that you overrate the brainiacs. I went to the second best university in my state MSU. I was wait listed to the best UM. It’s mostly just upper income kids pushed to go their but of average intelligence and average at best work ethic. An engineer is an engineer and tough to BS through and ditto for similar fields most everything else is BS.

Full disclosure “I have a high aptitude for learning” but am dyslexic as [bleep].



I am Dyslexic as well.
Maybe that is some of my problems with the office stuff. I just can not bring myself to sit down at a desk for hours on end and keep my sanity. I am much better working out side with my hands and forgetting everything but what I am working on.
It is almost therapy to me.

Re: The case for trade school [Re: TheLastLemming76] #16538536 10/17/21
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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76

I think that you overrate the brainiacs. I went to the second best university in my state MSU. I was wait listed to the best UM. It’s mostly just upper income kids pushed to go their but of average intelligence and average at best work ethic. An engineer is an engineer and tough to BS through and ditto for similar fields most everything else is BS.

Full disclosure “I have a high aptitude for learning” but am dyslexic as [bleep].

MI Tech and Kettering are way mo bedder than Moo-U.
Sorry, we can't be friends... grin

Re: The case for trade school [Re: AJ300MAG] #16538880 10/18/21
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Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
Originally Posted by pahick

Originally Posted by AJ300MAG

Production welders vs skilled trade welders. There is a difference.



Considering what theyre building heads to the killing fields and saves lives...id say theyre skilled.

Had a millwright friend of mine who worked at welding tank bodies at the warren tank plant before coming to work at GM as a MW apprentice. Sure as fúck wouldn't want a single-purpose welder doing a hot pierce on a gas train. YMMV...


I give no argument that some are more skilled than others,

But you wouldn’t want your family doctor cracking open your skull either…..


Dave

The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it. Lou Holtz



Re: The case for trade school [Re: 2ndwind] #16538893 10/18/21
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we did a study that showed that going to a prestigious college , majoring in STEM, results in an average of $7K more a year in salary than those who went to the local University. It opened our eyes a bit in our hiring focus. We've hired people from Harvard, MIT, Cal Berkley and we've hired a bunch of kids from state schools. There is no discernible difference in their production or contributions.

In most cases, it cost more than $7k a semester in tuition alone to attend those colleges, so if you were getting a student loan, you were actually losing money as over time as your salary increases would balance out while you'd be paying less on student loan debt. The net result was more cash in your pocket going to Local U versus a prestigious school.

A 4 year STEM degree will pay in the range of $60-$85K a year on average right now, certainly there are outliers at both ends. I'm not focusing on anything other than STEM because who gives a phug what an Art degree pays.


That said, with that same 4 year investment, choosing the right trade you will be in that same salary range. I've been talking to my son about becoming a lineman but he doesn't seem motivated enough to do anything about it. He still wants to get a 4 year degree.

Whatever field a young man or woman chooses, they should make sure it can't be replaced by AI or robotics

I could start another thread on the admissions scam on prestigious colleges. Bottom line is our kids won't be getting into them anyways without an athletic scholarship.

Last edited by KFWA; 10/18/21.

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