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Would anyone know whether a Ruger chrome-moly action such as on the African would be smoother than the stainless action such as on the Guide Gun in a large caliber such as .416 Ruger? Wanting a CRF standard length (.30-06 length) action for close-range for custom build in .45 caliber possibly using a shortened 2.5" blown out .404 Jeffery case with 22" stainless barrel. Thank you.

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Rifle hunter,

I find my Ruger African 416 to be smoother and better finished than my stainless 338 RCM. The trigger was better. The bolt lift to cock the rifle is also easier in the blued steel African model.

Have you tried necking up up 416 Ruger to 458? Might be easier. Fire forming 458 stuff would be brutal


Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 10/20/21.
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Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak
Rifle hunter,

I find my Ruger African 416 to be smoother and better finished than my stainless 338 RCM. The trigger was better. The bolt lift to cock the rifle is also easier in the blued steel African model.

Have you tried necking up up 416 Ruger to 458? Might be easier. Fire forming 458 stuff would be brutal

This is what I suspected, that the chrome-moly Ruger actions are smoother. I also have a stainless 338 RCM. I would like to neck up the .416 Ruger case to .458, but I just don't think there is enough shoulder to headspace properly unless virtually all the taper is taken out of the case, which may create other problems. The 404 Jeffery case is slightly wider than the Ruger case. I also don't want to go to .423 as it's a bit of an oddball caliber. I once had a black and blue shoulder after load development of a .458...sort of character building , I suppose!

Last edited by Riflehunter; 10/20/21.
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Geeze rifle hunter, hope the shoulder healed up. The 458-416 Ruger has been done before. A simple necking up of 416 Ruger brass, and plenty of shoulder to headspace off of. CH4D has also done dies off this wildcat. Likewise, plenty of YOUR shoulder might be saved as well, with no fire forming........

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

https://www.africahunting.com/media...d-ruger-long-action-magazine-box.102877/

With so much meat in a 416 Ruger barrel, maybe a simple rebore of the factory barrel?

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I'll look into that .458-416 Ruger. Thanks for that information. I want the rifle to weigh up to 10 lbs with scope, but no less than 9 1/2 lbs with scope. If the .416 barrel is rebored it will result in too light a barrel as the .416 Rugers weigh around 9 lbs with a 10 oz scope. So I would need to increase the outside diameter to increase the weight. I also want 2200 fps with a 22" barrel with 500 grain projectiles as the first shot out of a cold barrel can drop this down to 2100 fps (I've chronographed this difference in a .45). If you shoot at a bison or buffalo at 100 yards, that's more velocity loss and if its well below freezing in Winter even more velocity loss. I might be stretching things a bit to get 2200 fps in the thinner Ruger case with a 22" barrel with temperature stable powders at moderate pressure.

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Rifle hunter, the 416 Ruger African saved me from the redundant, timely, whacky, money-spending madness of wildcatting.

I appreciate the keen efforts to fill voids and determination that wildcatters bring to the table.

I wish you the best of luck finding a suitable 458 wildcat. 3 down is tight in the Ruger African, and a larger diameter case will lead to a 2 down gun. The 458-416 Ruger is only 50 fps behind a 458 Lott.

I went down that wildcat den hole once.

The wild, unchartered nature of a raging wildcat, it begs for wild places and dangerous pursuits.

To unleash one on a wild, white water river with sharp, jagged peaks along the shore line, it STOPPED one of my biggest bull moose, right on the dry bank. In the book The Hunting Rifle, Jack O'Connor claims he's never seen a large bull moose stopped with one shot.

I have.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13233780/3

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Nice moose! The loss in magazine capacity is worth thinking about. I remember Jack O'Connor saying he's never seen a large bull moose stopped with one shot.

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All the rough Rugers I've seen have been stainless; the very smooth ones have all been blue. I fixed the issue with one of my stainless ones by getting it NP-3'd; it's now slicker than snot. Black-T would have done the same thing if you like black.

You can also improve even the stainless ones a lot by knocking the sharp edges off the rear bridge and polishing the [bleep] out of the extractor (exposed long side, top and bottom), then, if you want, polishing the other friction-y areas like the extractor collar, tops and bottoms of locking lugs, top of the ejector, etc. A bit of dykem or magic marker will show pretty clearly what is rubbing what.

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I prefer chrome molly.IMO stainless is promoted nowadays because it is much easier on a smiths expensive tooling.I stay away from it.I have one stainless action -a 700 Rem. on a Sendero.It does not cycle smooth.

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Differing stainless steels are of different properties of course. Yet the generalization! A fundamental problem with stainless is the antithetical quality of corrosion resistance and surface hardening. As better enhancing one quality, derogatory to the other. There are supposedly recent Eu research developments in technology to afford both qualities harmoniously. I don't know the efficacy or where such progress stands.

The old fashioned approach, as somewhat reflected in this Thread, member subjective experience, probably the best short of in hand comparisons. For me 'good old' 4140 genre Chrome-Moly steel does a practical, cost effective job! If I had to subject my gun to super corrosive elements, perhaps otherwise. I have a couple of vintage Remington '03 rifles of WWII vintage with parkerizing or some such, which has proven extremely corrosion resistant. The limitation of largely "exterior only" application. Little substitute for reasonable care!
Just my take
Best!
John

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Could a stainless Ruger action be worked on so as to become as smooth as a chrome-moly Ruger action, or do you think the chrome-moly steel is inherently smoother?

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Nothing terribly new about your idea as Ken Howell had a series of wildcats based on the 404 Jeffery hull. His 375, 416 and 450 were done in the 1970s. His book details these cartridges and their performance. Not sure what your expectations are in terms of use on game. As bad as the 458 Win Mag gets knocked by some there is no let down when firing a 450 gr bullets at 2,275 fps. 475 gr and 500 gr. loads easily make 2,150 fps with today’s powders. The 458 Win Mag makes around 70 ft-lbs of recoil energy in a 9-10 lbs setup. You’re on par with around 90 ft-lbs of recoil in your wildcat from the same weight setup. In my opinion if both were used on large or dangerous game you would not see any real difference in their ability to dispatch game at 200 yards and closer.

Last edited by Rossimp; 11/05/21.
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The 458 Win gets 2150 fps with a maximum compressed load of temperature stable Varget or 2160 fps with a maximum compressed load of temperature stable H4895 with 500 grain projectiles out of a 24 inch barrel according to Hodgdon data. If you chop the barrel down to 22" or worse still 20", don't have a compressed load at say 2 grains below maximum then you're looking at about 2000 fps. The first shot out of a cold barrel I've measured to be 100 fps less than the normal velocity of a .45, which brings it under 2000 fps. That's right on the borderline of effectiveness on a buffalo. That's why I stipulated 2200 fps in a 22" barrel with a 500 grain projectile as minimum with the above powders. The .450 Howell should do that.

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I’m not trying to rain on your ambitions on the .458 or saying that the 458 Win Mag is magically fast. The Howell was developed for use in std magnum length LA, it never really caught on. It did everything well and boasted better ballistics. It’s brass is expensive and you now have a wildcat, which is fine. What I am saying is 1,000s of cape buffalo and elephants have been shot dead very satisfactorily with a 458 Win Mag, that’s both hunter and PH. There’s probably no other single DG cartridge dedicated to cape buffalo or elephant that has been used more since 1956 on that type of game. Ballistics are a fine thing, same for barrel lengths and velocity, but you would not be handicapped with either in the field. Advantages, if any, is one has less recoil and an additional cartridge in the magazine. Putting it all aside the 450 Howell is a nice design, the 375 Howell has always been appealing. For that matter the 404 Jeffery fits on some std magnum LA. COL is like 3.53”. Good luck with your build.



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It's when the barrel is around 20 - 22" that you reach a critical threshold velocity problem. I want a case that's 2.5" long so as to fit in a standard length action to mate with a short 20-22" barrel for a compact rifle, 20 to 21" preferably. 9 3/4 -10 lbs with scope. 4 rounds in the magazine.

Last edited by Riflehunter; 11/05/21.
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Just measured the COAL with a 500 grain roundnose FMJ in a 2.5" case on the cannelure. It was 3.33". So the .450 Howell will fit ok in a Ruger MkII Hawkeye action using 500 grain softnose roundnoses which are slightly shorter or 500 grain FMJ's. Boyds make a nice classic laminated stock with cheekpiece that weighs around 2.8 lbs which would be ideal to add some weight to the rear to balance a 21" .458 barrel at roughly 9 3/4 pounds with a chrome-moly Ruger action including scope. Should get 2150 fps out of a 21" barrel using Varget. I would put an extended magazine well on so as to hold 4 rounds in the magazine and use a stainless barrel Cerakoted a medium to dark gray so scratches don't stand out too much.

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I've got a slew of lefty Ruger rifles. My old MKII 30-06 is blue and super smooth but you have to bench press 400 lbs to handle the trigger. My blued Scout rifle was rough to start but has smoothed out decently and the trigger is very good out of box. I've got a few stainless others and they are more rough for certain and not as smooth.

There is one exception and that's a 270 win Hawkeye I picked up here used and it's stainless. It's smooth and polished up well and yeah the trigger is light and probably was worked on. It's the exception in stainless. Another one I have is a lefty 338RCM Hawkeye compact rifle that's blued. This is the best rifle I own on fit and handling. Smooth operating and good trigger but the dimensions and feel are amazjng.

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Modern Accurate 2230 is temp stable. It will give an easy 2150 fps with the 500 gr bullet in a 3.34" cartridge.
And it easily fits 3 in the Ruger's mag.

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My stainless M77 Mk2 458 is as slick as any rifle action that anyone has ever cycled. I had the rifle built in 95. I've put around 2,000 rounds of ammo down the barrel. And the action has been cycled probably less than 10,000 times. But possibly that many. I had ascertained that that rifle in 338 win mag would cycle 458 Winchester and 416 Taylor slick as could be. So I didn't allow the gs to touch the action other than to put a barrel and an under barrel recoil lug on it. I did have him put sights on it. Something I regret to this day. I really like nice express sights and arpeture sights that are quality , and put on correctly. .
I do not like some idiot drilling holes too deep in the barrel.
I understand the desire for a wildcat or something just different. But until you go whole hog up to 2400 fps with a 500 gr bullet . You won't get any more quick killing ability than the SAAMI 458 Winchester Magnum. And the 458 Winchester feeds slick as can be.

Last edited by ColdTriggerFinger; 12/10/21.
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Originally Posted by ColdTriggerFinger
Modern Accurate 2230 is temp stable. It will give an easy 2150 fps with the 500 gr bullet in a 3.34" cartridge.
And it easily fits 3 in the Ruger's mag.
Will the first shot out of a cold 21" barrel consistently get to 2150?

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