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"Climate change" is a religion so it's only appropriate.

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I just watched the end of a segment on PBS while I'm making chow. The show was on Uranium, and the end statement by this young , apparently woke dude stated Uranium is not ready yet , especially with all the upgrades in renewable energy! I don't know why I bother thinking I might learn something from PBS, but I do not have cable!

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Originally Posted by RufusG
"Climate change" is a religion so it's only appropriate.



Fair enough.


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The simple scheme for large scale power storage entails the use of a hybrid, solar, wind, hydroelectric, system. A closed loop system would pump water into a reservoir with excess power produced by wind and solar and run this through turbines in times of low power production. Such a system would be expensive and complex and I'm not certain how efficient it could be made to be. Of course, it's mandatory to keep enough water available for LV fountains and golf greens! GD

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Luddites will be Luddites.....

Energy storage does not equal battery storage. There are other, methods of storing energy being used and developed. Hydro, pressure, kinetic (fly wheel storage), thermal (direct solar heat), gravity (trains on steep inclines, dropping weights into mine shafts...), I'm sure there's more. Whichever will be the cheapest will win in the long term. Right now, we're in a phase of very rapid development, which always results in many bone-headed ideas. Think early repeating firearms..... how many pepper boxes out there today?

The fundamental economic question is: what is the cheapest way to generate electricity? Right now, that's solar (below about 50 degrees latitude, anyway) and second is wind. Even with backup storage. In the current regulatory environment, nuclear is just about the most expensive. Last year natural gas was pretty inexpensive, next year might just be a s#it show.

Sit back, relax, there's going to be a lot of changes over the next two decades. Might as well enjoy the ride.


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Originally Posted by Dutch
Luddites will be Luddites.....

Energy storage does not equal battery storage. There are other, methods of storing energy being used and developed. Hydro, pressure, kinetic (fly wheel storage), thermal (direct solar heat), gravity (trains on steep inclines, dropping weights into mine shafts...), I'm sure there's more. Whichever will be the cheapest will win in the long term. Right now, we're in a phase of very rapid development, which always results in many bone-headed ideas. Think early repeating firearms..... how many pepper boxes out there today?

The fundamental economic question is: what is the cheapest way to generate electricity? Right now, that's solar (below about 50 degrees latitude, anyway) and second is wind. Even with backup storage. In the current regulatory environment, nuclear is just about the most expensive. Last year natural gas was pretty inexpensive, next year might just be a s#it show.

Sit back, relax, there's going to be a lot of changes over the next two decades. Might as well enjoy the ride.


You're completely wrong, as usual. You continue to compare the cost of inherently not reliable energy with that of historically proven very reliable energy. You just need to stop it before we're back in the 19th century. You ignored everything said in the article.

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Good article. Thanks for passing this along.
Most of what I’ve read about this tells me that wind/solar cost 2/12 to 3 times to generate as opposed to gas or oil.
The greenies will not admit to the fact that without government subsidies, no one would build them!
As of yet we have no way of reliable storage nor transportation. With changing technology this may be a short term problem, maybe not.
Of course, the people pushing this are also the same people who will not allow a simple debate of the facts without yelling “racist” or “fascist” so what can we conservatives do?
If California wants to slash their own throat, that’s fine by me. Just leave the rest of us the hell out of it, and don’t come sniveling when it blows up in your face.
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"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden


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The true believers of "self sustaining energy" will not be ushered away from their devotion to the "holy grail" by mere Scientific analysis. Science and logic be damned it's full speed ahead into the valley of doom. The only way they got their "wind and solar" systems is with government bailouts and taxpayer money. They still don't work but the mantra now is 'well we just don't have enough'. I'm not sure what is meant by a 'closed loop system'. If it's pumping water by solar and electric when there's no wind or sunlight in order to power hydroelectric power then better check the block diagram again because you're starting from nothing to achieve something with nothing to input.

Good article. The nature of man being what it is, I'm sure that someday there will be viable sources of energy but you still must pay the piper. You never get something for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Steve
My thread has devolved into a theological argument.

I have arrived...


Amen!


lol

Edit: Not an argument...a discussion!

Last edited by Tarbe; 10/21/21.

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Originally Posted by RufusG

You're completely wrong, as usual. You continue to compare the cost of inherently not reliable energy with that of historically proven very reliable energy. You just need to stop it before we're back in the 19th century. You ignored everything said in the article.


What, specifically, in that post was wrong, in your opinion?

What, specifically, contradicted the original article, in your opinion?


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Originally Posted by Dutch
Originally Posted by RufusG

You're completely wrong, as usual. You continue to compare the cost of inherently not reliable energy with that of historically proven very reliable energy. You just need to stop it before we're back in the 19th century. You ignored everything said in the article.


What, specifically, in that post was wrong, in your opinion?

What, specifically, contradicted the original article, in your opinion?


Your delusion that solar is "cheaper". You are comparing apples and oranges. Coal and nuclear plants run at a historical (read, not hypothetical) capacity factor of 90% and higher. That's reliable enough to be the backbone of 24/7/365 electricity delivery. Renewables, divide that number by 3. For solar in many parts of the country, more like 4 or more. That's just not in the same universe reliability-wise. A direct cost comparison that ignores that fact is disingenuous at best.

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No, cost is cost. Solar plus storage at the lower latitudes is cheaper than gas, coal and nuclear, on a utility scale, and solar is getting cheaper by about 3% per year.

That 3% is like Moore’s law in computing, and means that in 20 years from now, solar will cost half as much as it does today. And today solar is being installed at utility scale for around 3 c/KWH in the desert southwest.

Higher latitudes mean less efficiency, and higher costs. Which is why the German solar push is so silly, and the Brits are farming out their solar to the desert in Morocco.

The storage question is interesting.

From the article:

“The technical issues resemble the ones plaguing several electric-car manufacturers, but the scale of grid-scale batteries adds to the challenge. The Moss Landing beast has an array of 100,000 lithium battery modules containing as much lithium as some 20,000 Teslas. “

If the “big battery” needs the batteries of 20,000 Tesla’s.....why don’t we just plug in 20,000 Tesla’s? The average battery car has enough power to run a house for a couple of days. In the not all too distant future there will be semi trucks with even larger reserves.

Which is exactly what Tesla is doing, as we speak. They have filed for a license to be a public utility in Texas. They plan to use their “auto bidder” software ( https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/tesla-software/autobidder) and become middlemen between small producers and consumers. Producers (including battery owners such as cars, power walls, etc) can enter their sale conditions (price, maximum draw, maximum quantity) into the software, which then “makes a market” with buyers. Sell when the supply is low and the price is high, buy when the supply is high and the price is low.

I don’t disagree with the stated premise that this whole thing, going from base load generation to local, distributed and intermittent generation, won’t be messy, but it will happen. Not because of the granola head cheerleaders, but because it’s cheaper.


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No matter how many times you type it, it's still not true. The marginal cost when it's actually running is irrelevant, unless you plan to ignore your customers the 16 hours a day the solar is useless.

You replace a 1000 MW coal or nuke plant, you need 3000 to 4000 MW solar. Plus the same MW worth of batteries. Plus the transmission to place all these renewables where the sun actually shines, and the wind blows, and move the power to where people actually live. Estimates are the transmission infrastructure has to be DOUBLED or TRIPLED (at least) to switch to all renewables.

That's TRILLIONS of dollars that you're conveniently not including in your cost estimate. And we still don't know if it will actually work.

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Until the storage becomes able to hold enough juice to allow for an indefinite time of whatever type of generator is being used to be off-line, the storage becomes physically small enough, fully production capable on a mass scale & economical enough to be useful, renewable energy is a pipe dream......................couch it however you want to rationalize it all you want, that's the fact.

Gonna be awhile before some people wake up.

I hope all out fossil fuel production capability is not destroyed to the point of no return, but with idiots in charge, anything is possible right now.

We've never been so fu^cked & the worst part is that it's all self induced.

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Originally Posted by Tarbe
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Wait until this Bible prophesy kicks in. A time is coming when there will be no wind at all, anywhere on earth. It doesn't say how long that will last but think about it. No mixing of air so hot places get hotter and cold places get colder. No wind for the windmills. No wind to clear the smog from cities.

Revelation 7:1 "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree."



Consider this below (from a quick search). I believe most of Revelation is written in apocalyptic language, used elsewhere in scripture. So we don't take it literally, nor do we have to guess at the meaning. Just see where else the language was used (like sun, moon and stars...used metaphorically numerous times in the OT). :

Hebrews 1:7, winds represent angels: “In speaking of the angels he says, ‘He makes his angels winds.’”1 I believe the four winds being held back in v. 1 are the four horsemen of Revelation 6. As noted by G.K. Beale the four horsemen of Revelation 6:1-8 are “modeled” after the four horsemen of Zechariah 6:1-8 who are explicitly identified as “the four winds of heaven” in Zechariah 6:5:2“And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four winds of heaven, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth [emphasis mine].”3 The word translated winds in Zechariah 6:5 is ruach which is also often translated spirits. Ruach means breath, wind, spirit.


Now we are talking non-fiction. I can dig it. They are saddled , ready to ride. Maybe with a little Wuhan help.




Last edited by las; 10/21/21.

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Originally Posted by 12344mag
Greenies are dumb, oh wait, greenies are usually democrats so that makes sense.





Greenies are dumb. As Tucker pointed out last night using windmills as an example, EVERY energy source has its cost.


Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.

Rehabilitation is way overrated.

Orwell wasn't wrong.

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Right now, phasing out coal and executive orders on oil production is going to be of "Hunger Games" proportions bad unless by some miracle this insane greenie wave diminishes!

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Solar has its place, like wind energy. Relying on it is foolish. Wait for a 3 day blizzard….

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Originally Posted by RufusG
No matter how many times you type it, it's still not true. The marginal cost when it's actually running is irrelevant, unless you plan to ignore your customers the 16 hours a day the solar is useless.
.


No matter how often you deny it, cost is cost. Utilization rate has nothing to do with it. Right now, today, utility size solar contracts deliver electricity to the grid at a cost $0.03 /KWH. Not for capacity, for actual product delivered. If you are familiar with the relative costs of generation, that’s half of the cost of natural gas, and a little less than half of coal. And close to a quarter of the cost of a gas peaker plant.

If you want to rely on solar, 50% of the cost can be in storage, and you’re still even.


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Originally Posted by Dutch
Utilization rate has nothing to do with it.



Do I remember correctly that you posted here about installing a backup generator for your place?

Last edited by RufusG; 10/22/21.
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