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Originally Posted by Colorado1135
that's how it was intended in a way, to be above govt regulation and as a way to combat inflation and exchange rates. the "problem" is until it stabilizes and finds it's equilibrium it can fluctuate as people buy and sell, BUT they all keep appreciating, so as a 5,10,20 year hold it could and will pay off huge unless the government does some radical legislation against it or tax it at 90%. that scenario is unlikely because it is so easy for the average joe to set up an account and buy, politicians are contending with millions of users, and not just a few fringe folks living on the dark web. Granted no one can predict the future, but history and trends show it's the wave of the future potentially. like anything don't bet more than you can afford to lose.


Not quite. Crypto has the same problem as gold. When currency was tied to gold, the amount of money was close to fixed. The only increase in the money supply was the increase in the gold supply. The economy coiuld not increase the amount of goods and services unless the price of goods decreased -- same money, more goods would equal inflation.

You can trace through history the economic impact of large gold finds resulting in increased circulation of money. When the Romans started mining the deposits in Spain, when Spain started bringing home gold from the New World, the '49 California gold rush. Each influx of gold resulted in an economic boom. There was more money to spend, so the economy responded by making more goods and services -- the economy grew due to the increase in money supply.

That should sound familiar. Historically, economists have taught that inflation occurs when the money supply increases and more money chases the same amount of goods and services. While that statement is correct, it hasn't held true over the last thirty years, not at a national level. Enter "new monetary theory". It essentially states that a nation can increase the money supply (print money) without creating inflation as long as the increase in money is smaller than the increase in the capacity to DELIVER goods and services. With globalization, a nation's capacity to produce goods and services is not limited to what it can produce domestically, it can import what it needs to soak up that money.

Just like when gold entered the economy and boosted buying, printing money, it turns out, can be done without the inflation penalty. Well, until you run into limits of importing through tartiffs or government regulations limiting shipping capacity.

Crypto has the same limit as gold: you can't make more to increase economic activity. In that respect, it's a huge step backwards.


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To me, money oils the machine.

It's people [producing goods that matters.


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Originally Posted by teamprairiedog
Originally Posted by Dutch
Originally Posted by JakeBlues
Bitcoin is like Tesla, it’s a cult. If they banned it in half the countries around the world, people would still buy it.


Not quite. Tesla at least makes a million cars a year or so. Bitcoin is a zero sum game.


Per Tesla's web page they made 509,737 autos in 2020 and that was their highest production year up to then.




Correct. They also delivered 241,000 vehicles in Q3, 2021, and the Berlin, Germany and Austin, TX factories are due to come on line in Q4 2021. I submit that the statement "a million cars per year" accurately describes the current production rate. 2022 should be over 1.5 million cars, even with the supply chain issues.


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Originally Posted by Dutch
Originally Posted by Colorado1135
that's how it was intended in a way, to be above govt regulation and as a way to combat inflation and exchange rates. the "problem" is until it stabilizes and finds it's equilibrium it can fluctuate as people buy and sell, BUT they all keep appreciating, so as a 5,10,20 year hold it could and will pay off huge unless the government does some radical legislation against it or tax it at 90%. that scenario is unlikely because it is so easy for the average joe to set up an account and buy, politicians are contending with millions of users, and not just a few fringe folks living on the dark web. Granted no one can predict the future, but history and trends show it's the wave of the future potentially. like anything don't bet more than you can afford to lose.


Not quite. Crypto has the same problem as gold. When currency was tied to gold, the amount of money was close to fixed. The only increase in the money supply was the increase in the gold supply. The economy coiuld not increase the amount of goods and services unless the price of goods decreased -- same money, more goods would equal inflation.

You can trace through history the economic impact of large gold finds resulting in increased circulation of money. When the Romans started mining the deposits in Spain, when Spain started bringing home gold from the New World, the '49 California gold rush. Each influx of gold resulted in an economic boom. There was more money to spend, so the economy responded by making more goods and services -- the economy grew due to the increase in money supply.

That should sound familiar. Historically, economists have taught that inflation occurs when the money supply increases and more money chases the same amount of goods and services. While that statement is correct, it hasn't held true over the last thirty years, not at a national level. Enter "new monetary theory". It essentially states that a nation can increase the money supply (print money) without creating inflation as long as the increase in money is smaller than the increase in the capacity to DELIVER goods and services. With globalization, a nation's capacity to produce goods and services is not limited to what it can produce domestically, it can import what it needs to soak up that money.

Just like when gold entered the economy and boosted buying, printing money, it turns out, can be done without the inflation penalty. Well, until you run into limits of importing through tartiffs or government regulations limiting shipping capacity.

Crypto has the same limit as gold: you can't make more to increase economic activity. In that respect, it's a huge step backwards.



That's an interesting perspective, it will be interesting to see how the basis/trend for an old monetary system translates to the digital age. Gold is a precious metal that as you say can influence if large pockets are discovered and dumped into the economy, especially one that has gold as the standard. paper money replaced gold and was regulated to a degree but as we've seen can be printed at will by politicians thus inflation. crypto can't be replicated simply by cutting and pasting code or adding digits to a bank statement. the very nature of how it is mined is how it combats the scenario you pointed out with the different models of how it's made. as it grows in popularity so does it's value. people have bought and sold currency at exchange rates to make money forever, this is just digital and faster. it's like stocks only can be used for payment transactions in a way.


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Elon just posted, he isn't holding Shib. Watch for price dump.


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If you work 40 hrs/wk: at 5% inflation and after 5 years, you need a 28% pay raise or to work 44 more hours (*one full extra week* per month+) to make up the difference.

This is inflation
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Originally Posted by erikj
Elon just posted, he isn't holding Shib. Watch for price dump.


Well, his holdings are up by a billion $. I suppose I'd take some profit, too......


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Originally Posted by Dutch
Originally Posted by erikj
Elon just posted, he isn't holding Shib. Watch for price dump.


Well, his holdings are up by a billion $. I suppose I'd take some profit, too......

Shiba is a meme coin parody of another meme coin. Its the perfect investment in today's clown world.


@jameslavish

If you work 40 hrs/wk: at 5% inflation and after 5 years, you need a 28% pay raise or to work 44 more hours (*one full extra week* per month+) to make up the difference.

This is inflation
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lol, here I was thinking it was the hipster term for bitcoin.... I should not try to speak hipster.


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Dutch, that concept is very interesting and something I never understood before. If I understand correctly the concept of supply and demand affects the value money as well as the value of goods and services. It also explains why some think globalization is a good thing. It helps balance the money supply with the goods and services available.

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Originally Posted by 45_100
Dutch, that concept is very interesting and something I never understood before. If I understand correctly the concept of supply and demand affects the value money as well as the value of goods and services. It also explains why some think globalization is a good thing. It helps balance the money supply with the goods and services available.

Sounds great, except money is created through debt. In order to keep kicking that can down the road, they're floating the idea of a trillion dollar coin.


@jameslavish

If you work 40 hrs/wk: at 5% inflation and after 5 years, you need a 28% pay raise or to work 44 more hours (*one full extra week* per month+) to make up the difference.

This is inflation
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OK, let's say crypto is good money like gold is good money. Issuers of fiat money can destroy the value and always eventually have by creating too much of it since there is an unlimited supply. Gold cannot be created and has been accepted the world over as money for thousands of years and still is. It has several traits that make it useful for money such as non corroding, easily portable, limited but not rare, and recognized and valued the world over. I don't quite understand crypto but supposedly its supply is limited so we can I guess call it digital gold. The governments of the world have proven they can force gold out of commerce like our USA did in 1933. Governments have to use force to require good money not to compete with their fiat money. Which brings me to the question of what is there to stop a government from outlawing the use of crypto and shutting down internet trading of it?


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Originally Posted by erikj
Originally Posted by 45_100
Dutch, that concept is very interesting and something I never understood before. If I understand correctly the concept of supply and demand affects the value money as well as the value of goods and services. It also explains why some think globalization is a good thing. It helps balance the money supply with the goods and services available.

Sounds great, except money is created through debt. In order to keep kicking that can down the road, they're floating the idea of a trillion dollar coin.


Your conflating two issues: government debt, and government’s ability to create money. The first, the government borrowing money, by itself, does not increase the money supply: the government spends money, but someone else takes money out of circulation to give to the government. So debt, alone, does not increase the money supply.

Money can be created in two ways: one, by simply printing it, or in the digital age, by simply wiring it to another account, out of thin air.

Or, as the government has been doing, by lending money. Give someone a nice fat wire into their account, and call it a loan. Another form of this is “bond purchases”, where the government uses new money to buy private bonds. Incidentally, any bank can do this, not just the Fed. It is good to be a banker..... you can create money out of thin air.

Under “new monetary theory” government debt isn’t as big a deal, because the government can print money without penalty. Needless to say, it’s quite popular with politicians, for the same reasons Keynes was.

We (economists) know that the theory of inflation we were all taught is not correct, and “new monetary theory” is one of the new candidate theories. No one k owns what the limits of this theory are, or if it is actually correct, or just matches the data for the last 30 coincidentally.


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Ok, now you have secular inflation and low interest rates. You're also adding a hundred billion dollars a month to the money supply, with policy makers voting on a multi trillion dollar spending bill. Against bitcoin, you're already experiencing hyperinflation.


@jameslavish

If you work 40 hrs/wk: at 5% inflation and after 5 years, you need a 28% pay raise or to work 44 more hours (*one full extra week* per month+) to make up the difference.

This is inflation
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Originally Posted by erikj
Ok, now you have secular inflation and low interest rates. You're also adding a hundred billion dollars a month to the money supply, with policy makers voting on a multi trillion dollar spending bill. Against bitcoin, you're already experiencing hyperinflation.
Why are precious metals not hyperinflating?


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Originally Posted by Hastings
OK, let's say crypto is good money like gold is good money. Issuers of fiat money can destroy the value and always eventually have by creating too much of it since there is an unlimited supply. Gold cannot be created and has been accepted the world over as money for thousands of years and still is. It has several traits that make it useful for money such as non corroding, easily portable, limited but not rare, and recognized and valued the world over. I don't quite understand crypto but supposedly its supply is limited so we can I guess call it digital gold. The governments of the world have proven they can force gold out of commerce like our USA did in 1933. Governments have to use force to require good money not to compete with their fiat money. Which brings me to the question of what is there to stop a government from outlawing the use of crypto and shutting down internet trading of it?


The only way to shut down internet trading of it is to shut down the internet. They could make it difficult and inconvenient, which would almost certainly have a negative effect on price, but you can't stop it. China has been trying for a long time, and still hasn't succeeded.

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Originally Posted by xxclaro
Originally Posted by Hastings
OK, let's say crypto is good money like gold is good money. Issuers of fiat money can destroy the value and always eventually have by creating too much of it since there is an unlimited supply. Gold cannot be created and has been accepted the world over as money for thousands of years and still is. It has several traits that make it useful for money such as non corroding, easily portable, limited but not rare, and recognized and valued the world over. I don't quite understand crypto but supposedly its supply is limited so we can I guess call it digital gold. The governments of the world have proven they can force gold out of commerce like our USA did in 1933. Governments have to use force to require good money not to compete with their fiat money. Which brings me to the question of what is there to stop a government from outlawing the use of crypto and shutting down internet trading of it?


The only way to shut down internet trading of it is to shut down the internet. They could make it difficult and inconvenient, which would almost certainly have a negative effect on price, but you can't stop it. China has been trying for a long time, and still hasn't succeeded.

I thought China's government had pretty strict control over internet access in that country and successfully blocked private citizens from a good many things. True or not?


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Just curious if you all have been watching the crypto markets. Pretty amazing what's going on


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There is a lot of bad info in this thread. But that is nothing new here on the Fire!

China, the only thing we actually know for certain is that they don't have enough energy for mining operations. The rest is speculation.

Bitcoin and Altcoins are not one and the same. Nor will they all meld into one.

There is only 14 million Bitcoins, possibly fewer but rough count 14M. There will never be more, but there will be fewer in time. No government controls it. For those living in the past the adoption of Bitcoin is here and not going anywhere. You can invest in BTC in Hedgefunds, ETF's, and other avenues. Pension funds are buying up BTC. Countries are looking at it as their currency. El Salvador already has adopted it. There has never been an investment in history with the returns it has produced. BTC will continue the drive up. Not at the pace of ALTs more then likely but still with great returns.

As for Shiba it is a pure speculation that has grabbed the attention of some whales and institutional investors. One could make some unreal returns with this. I strongly advise playing it safe and setting up limits at target points and taking your money off the table. I bought in @ $0.00000274 a share. I sold Yesterday to recoup my investment and still have 11 Million share. I can't lose, even if it disappears I am positive $$$.

As for Altcoins they are not BTC! They are for the most part and ease of discussion Blockchains. If you stick to the Blockchains that actually have sound fundamentals you should be ok, as in sticking to sound stocks. Yes there is always still a risk. No risk, no reward. ETH, SOL, LINK, and MATIC all AS OF NOW have sound fundamentals and in my opinion are great investments.Do your due diligence and only invest what you can afford to lose. The naysayers have already been proven WRONG!


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Originally Posted by 1minute
How can one ban something he can't put his hands on? One could still use such in several other countries.


This^^^^


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Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
There is a lot of bad info in this thread. But that is nothing new here on the Fire!

China, the only thing we actually know for certain is that they don't have enough energy for mining operations. The rest is speculation.

Bitcoin and Altcoins are not one and the same. Nor will they all meld into one.

There is only 14 million Bitcoins, possibly fewer but rough count 14M. There will never be more, but there will be fewer in time. No government controls it. For those living in the past the adoption of Bitcoin is here and not going anywhere. You can invest in BTC in Hedgefunds, ETF's, and other avenues. Pension funds are buying up BTC. Countries are looking at it as their currency. El Salvador already has adopted it. There has never been an investment in history with the returns it has produced. BTC will continue the drive up. Not at the pace of ALTs more then likely but still with great returns.

As for Shiba it is a pure speculation that has grabbed the attention of some whales and institutional investors. One could make some unreal returns with this. I strongly advise playing it safe and setting up limits at target points and taking your money off the table. I bought in @ $0.00000274 a share. I sold Yesterday to recoup my investment and still have 11 Million share. I can't lose, even if it disappears I am positive $$$.

As for Altcoins they are not BTC! They are for the most part and ease of discussion Blockchains. If you stick to the Blockchains that actually have sound fundamentals you should be ok, as in sticking to sound stocks. Yes there is always still a risk. No risk, no reward. ETH, SOL, LINK, and MATIC all AS OF NOW have sound fundamentals and in my opinion are great investments.Do your due diligence and only invest what you can afford to lose. The naysayers have already been proven WRONG!


Excellent. What did it cost you in Eth to sell that Shib? Was going to take some more profits off it today and the fee's are getting pretty steep! The 4 alts you listed happen to make up a good part of my crypto holdings, hopefully take some profit to reinvest if/when things drop significantly.

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