Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Musket cap and 209 swap: Now piercing the primers

I have an inline with a musket cap breech plug and firing pin, and a 209 primer breech plug and firing pin. I really only need to swap breech plugs if I leave my musket cap firing pin in. The musket cap firing pin handily sets off both. But it leaves a rectangular dent like it does on a musket cap, not the round little dent of a traditional firing pin.

Is there any reason or advantage to a round dent versus this one left my the musket cap pin? Does this look okay?

Use the intended pin.

If you have a thin primer or switch primers you may end up with a face full of fire.

So far. I'm just wondering if there is any reason not to just keep doing it this way. It's a heckuva lot easier than swapping out the pins. That's not hard either, but just swapping breach plugs only takes a couple of seconds.

I guess if its working then do it.

Do loads shoot w both types of ignition shoot exactly the same?

Just don't be surprised if you pierce a primer. Looks like they are dented pretty good.

Sometimes I shoot a 240 gr XTP over 2 Pyrodex pellets and I like a musket cap for that. I also like a 300 grain SST over 2 777 pellets and use a 209 for that. I can light both with either a 209 or musket, but I get a tad better accuracy with a Pryodex/musket-cap combo, and a 777/209 combo. So i go back and forth, whatever I'm feeling like doing.

I'm really just curious. Replacing the pin is really nothing more than pulling the breach face off and swapping pins, but it does require barrel removal.

Here's a couple more views. The dent doesn't seem that deep. The shadow and lighting may make it look deeper than it is. These are my new Cheddite primers and it seems like they stick out of the breech plug a hair more than Winchester 209s.





But I think you're probably right. I should use the intended pin.

The musket pin tip is rectangular and has a light angle to it. The edges of the rectangle seem sharp. The end of the 209 pin is round. The 209 pin strikes much deeper than the musket pin, but it looks like the edges of the musket pin are (maybe) cutting the metal on the primer. The 209 pin dent just looks really deep, but its a rounded hole and I don't see anything that looks like a cut or a crack.



The one thing I do notice is that the primer bulges above the rim using the 209 pin, but it stays just below the rim using the musket pin.



There's a lot more suet on the bottom of the spent primer when using the musket pin versus the 209 pin. Not sure if that means anything.

I don’t like the way either of those look, actually. What rifle are you shooting?

You can bet that if a whoopsie occurs, the maker will blame you for using the wrong one.

Do the Winchester 209, when used with the actual 209 firing pin have that same bulge as the Cheddite primers?

Is that a traditions inline?

Pappy, it's a Traditions Pursuit XT. I have a "Northwest" musket cap breech plug and firing pin. I also have a 209 breech plug and firing pin. I've used the musket cap set up with a 240 grain XTP over two Pyrodex pellets and RWS or Schutzen musket caps. It's performed flawlessly. I've also used the 209 set up with a 300 gr SST over two 777 pellets, but with Winchester 209s. That's also performed flawlessly. These are my new Cheddite 209s pictured.

10g, I don't notice any difference in the look of the spent Cheddites versus Winchesters, but I don't have any spent Winchester handy. It just "looks" like the pin is striking really deep regardless of which primer I use. But I don't see any evidence of piercing. I've never had a 209 blow in this gun. The breech plug where the 209 seats stays nice and clean with no evidence of gas leakage (unlike the musket cap plug which can get pretty dirty). But that deep dent is why I decided to see what the musket cap pin would do. It strikes shallower, but creates sharp creases that I think might contribute to piercing.

There's nothing I can do at this point except give it a whirl. I thought I was going to be resigned to musket caps only this season. I am literally just out of 209s and came across these Cheddites by luck. They're supposed to be hot primers and they do throw a flame and a spark or two out of the muzzle, more so than the Winchesters I used.

May email those pics to Traditions and see what they have to say.

I don't have any spent shotgun shells laying around, either. But I did look at some photos of the primers on spent shells and that Cheddite primer with the slight bulge looks pretty much identical to what I'm seeing on spent shells.

Good idea, I will. Probably not the one with a musket cap dent. I don't think I'll do that again.

I stumbled onto a brick of the Cheddites a while back. Haven’t tried them for fit in my Knight yet. Randy Wakeman IIRC, recommended them as hot and waterproof some years back.

I'm now convinced this is a primer issue, not a firing pin issue. The more I research Cheddites, the more references I find regarding piercing. It seems to be a rather common issue with Cheddites. Now, my Traditions is piercing every Cheddite I've tried since the first pic I posted. I pulled the pin and looked at it under a jewelers glass and can't see any erosion, but I did polish the rounded tip with 1500 grit. Still pierced the Cheddites. So, I will either not be using Cheddites, or I won't be using them with the 209 firing pin.

I installed the musket cap pin and breech face again and fired a few more Cheddites. No piecing, no bulged primers. Just a nice, shallow indent on the primer that sets it off every time. I can't find any evidence of any blowback or leakage. The 209 breech plug and the musket cap breech face and pin seems to seal up tightly.

Cheddites using the 209 pin left, using the musket cap pin right, with a few spent musket caps.

I had a conversation with muzzle-loaders.com about the ignition systems on these Traditions pursuit muzzleloaders on another forum several years ago. Particularly about using a 209 breech plug with the northwest firing pin assembly which is the rectangular indent on the primer. Here is the response I got back from them.

I did some digging into this and spoke with Traditions to ensure that we were fully informed before commenting on the forum.

After speaking with their engineers, they do not feel that it is safe to use the A1443 breech plug and 209 primers in the Northwest muzzleloaders. Due to the frame and barrel designs of the Northwest guns, blowback and pressures would be unsafe and is not recommended or advised on any level. Just keep in mind, this is straight from the engineers and I am just relaying this information.

Also, installing an A1443 breech plug in your Northwest gun will void the warranty on your muzzleloader, which is always a concern.

GOOD NEWS: Not all the updates were bad news! Traditions is releasing a conversion kit for Pursuit and Buckstalker muzzleloaders, to fully adopt the 209 primers. This kit will not work in the Vortek platforms, but at least anyone owning a Pursuit G4 or Buckstalker will be able to safely make the swap, without jeopardizing their safety or voiding their warranty.

Now I have shot my Traditions Pursuit G4 with the western breech face, but have inserted the 209 breech plug , utilizing blue box Winchester 209 primers and I have had no problems. They stated " Due to the frame and barrel designs of the Northwest guns, blowback and pressures would be unsafe and is not recommended or advised on any level utilizing the A1443 breech plug and 209 primers with the western breech.." I don't understand what difference it would make what firing pin you were using. Both western and 209 models come from the factory with the same frame and barrel. And both breech plugs are exactly the same length. But I'm not and engineer. I don't know if any of this information will help. But I wouldn't show them pics of the 209 primers with the rectangular firing pin strikes.

Help me out here. Is this gun designed for “Western” ignition using caps, then was modified by the user by switching plugs and/or firing pins so 209s would work?

Not judging, just trying to figure out what’s what.

My Knight can use either by swapping plugs and bolt bodies, and the cap is exposed to comply with regs in places that require that.

You can buy them either way new. Either western or 209. They make an aftermarket conversion kit to change it from western to 209. Here is a link to the conversion kit. I don't know if you can identify anything by the picture.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023142268?pid=703446

I bought a couple of the Traditions a few years back but then switched over to Knight also. Just a much better rifle

The Traditions Pursuit XT (set up for 209 primers) and the Traditions Pursuit Northwest XT (set up for musket caps) are exactly the same gun but with different breech plugs, firing pins and breech faces. These are interchangeable. You can turn an XT into a Northwest XT, or turn a Northwest XT into a regular XT. It's just a matter of buying a different breech plug, pin and breech face.

Here in Virginia, we can use any muzzle loader on deer as long its .45 caliber or up. Projectile and ignition type doesn't matter. I just cut my teeth on inlines using musket caps and like them. I'm kinda old school in that I still like pyrodex, too. But I got the 2090 conversion for versatility.

BTW, Lazydrifter, I read you posts on the other forum some time ago. I saw the pictures, too. I don't know why I can't use the musket cap pin with 209s. The primer ends up against the breech face regardless of the one I use. And I see a worse downside to pierced primers than a rectangular indent.

This has got to be a primer issue, not a gun issue. I've developed loads using Winchester 209s and the correct breech plug and firing pin with no issues at all. No excessively bulged cups and no pierced primers. Cheddite has a reputation for getting pierced. They apparently have a very thin and soft cup. So its easy to poke a hole through them. Lots of shotgun reloaders love them for their reliability, but they do have a piercing issue.

I just got in a few more boxes of Schutzen musket caps. I like these and they will set off anything in front of them, including 777 pellets, though I use them with Pyrodex, and haven't zeroed my gun and 777 pellets lit by musket caps. I'll likely end up using Pyrodex pellets, a 240gr XTP and musket caps unless I can get out and see just how my 777 pellets and 300 gr SST does with the musket caps.

I almost bought a Knight a month ago but let it go since I already have two front loaders and didn't want to learn a new gun this close to season. But I actually like this Pursuit XT. For the price, it's really nice. It's as ergonomically perfect as they come. It's also under 6 lbs. And over open sights, I am getting really good groups. So I'll keep it. Even so, I will likely have a Knight by next season.