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Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny

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Originally Posted by mannyspd1
Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny


Sounds like you have a useful test going on there. Be interesting to see how the XTP works out. If it makes it through two skulls, I'll say that was more than sufficient to hit the vitals in a black bear. If not, others here may have a valid point about the hard cast.

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Originally Posted by mannyspd1
Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny



Not specifically 10mm, however this is relevant to the topic on hand.

This was written by John Linebaugh a number of years back and is an example of the typical performance one can expect of a properly cast, hard cast flat point or semi wadcutter type bullet.

I have seen my wife shoot two or three mule deer and about eight antelope now with a .45 Colt. The load she has used almost exclusively for seven years now is a 260 Keith slug at 900 fps out of a 4 3/4" Seville revolver. This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.

It kills in my estimation better than a .270 or .30-06 class rifle as it acts a lot like an arrow and doesn't excite the animal. No whistles or bells, just honest consistent performance.

I have used this load on two antelope with exacting results. In my early hunting years I used the same 260 gr Keith at 1,400 fps. out of a dozen antelope and one mule deer I have personally taken I can't see that it stops them one bit better than the 900 fps load. Why, well history will tell us, as Elmer said. Once you shoot completely through your intended target you've done all you can do



It is the perfect example of why the vast majority of experienced handgun hunters use a hard cast bullet for large game hunting and/or large animal defense. I am not talking about medium game like a 100 pound Whitetail, but bigger animals like large Mule Deer. Moose, Bears, etc.

FMJ is not a good choice. The round nose tends to slip through flesh causing very little permanent damage, unless something structural is hit. I have shot jackrabbits with 9mm, 10mm and .45 FMJ and had them hump up for a second, then run off with no immediate effect. Switching to a semi wadcutter, or any other profile with a large flat face/large meplat produces substantially better results with immediate visible effects on the animal when shot. The only thing I would hope to use FMJ for on a large animal is for a CNS shot, trying to shut down the brain. But in emergencies, you don't get to pick your shots, you get what you get and you may never actually have that opportunity, or you may never actually connect with your shots for various reasons. The realities of shooting in the field/combat/defense are not at all like being on a range.


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by mannyspd1
Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny



Not specifically 10mm, however this is relevant to the topic on hand.

This was written by John Linebaugh a number of years back and is an example of the typical performance one can expect of a properly cast, hard cast flat point or semi wadcutter type bullet.

I have seen my wife shoot two or three mule deer and about eight antelope now with a .45 Colt. The load she has used almost exclusively for seven years now is a 260 Keith slug at 900 fps out of a 4 3/4" Seville revolver. This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.

It kills in my estimation better than a .270 or .30-06 class rifle as it acts a lot like an arrow and doesn't excite the animal. No whistles or bells, just honest consistent performance.

I have used this load on two antelope with exacting results. In my early hunting years I used the same 260 gr Keith at 1,400 fps. out of a dozen antelope and one mule deer I have personally taken I can't see that it stops them one bit better than the 900 fps load. Why, well history will tell us, as Elmer said. Once you shoot completely through your intended target you've done all you can do



It is the perfect example of why the vast majority of experienced handgun hunters use a hard cast bullet for large game hunting and/or large animal defense. I am not talking about medium game like a 100 pound Whitetail, but bigger animals like large Mule Deer. Moose, Bears, etc.

FMJ is not a good choice. The round nose tends to slip through flesh causing very little permanent damage, unless something structural is hit. I have shot jackrabbits with 9mm, 10mm and .45 FMJ and had them hump up for a second, then run off with no immediate effect. Switching to a semi wadcutter, or any other profile with a large flat face/large meplat produces substantially better results with immediate visible effects on the animal when shot. The only thing I would hope to use FMJ for on a large animal is for a CNS shot, trying to shut down the brain. But in emergencies, you don't get to pick your shots, you get what you get and you may never actually have that opportunity, or you may never actually connect with your shots for various reasons. The realities of shooting in the field/combat/defense are not at all like being on a range.






^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ memtb


You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

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Originally Posted by memtb
Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Originally Posted by mannyspd1
Thought I would add my experience with some of these bullets mentioned in 10mm.

Not all FMJ bullets are created equal. I tested some boutique commercial 180 gr fmj's a couple of years ago against some 200 fn hardcast that I had loaded myself. The 180's are advertised as "woods defense rounds" including for black bear.

The test medium I used was freshly killed cow elk skulls lined up. The 180 gr "woods defense" load was determined to have a thin brittle jacket, and brittle lead core, with the bullet breaking up on the first skull and shallow penetration. The 200 grain hard cast was vastly superior in penetration through the hard bone of the skulls. Absolutely no contest. Mackay's 10mm loads are similar in appearance and fps as mine and should work about the same.

The 10mm 200 grain xtp has a lower velocity range listed by Hornady than its 10mm 180 grain. This indicates to me the 200 gr is built softer than the 180, perhaps to compensate for the difference in velocity? I dunno. I do have some 200 xtp's loaded up but no 180 xtp's to test.

I hope this helps a bit.

Manny



Not specifically 10mm, however this is relevant to the topic on hand.

This was written by John Linebaugh a number of years back and is an example of the typical performance one can expect of a properly cast, hard cast flat point or semi wadcutter type bullet.

I have seen my wife shoot two or three mule deer and about eight antelope now with a .45 Colt. The load she has used almost exclusively for seven years now is a 260 Keith slug at 900 fps out of a 4 3/4" Seville revolver. This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.

It kills in my estimation better than a .270 or .30-06 class rifle as it acts a lot like an arrow and doesn't excite the animal. No whistles or bells, just honest consistent performance.

I have used this load on two antelope with exacting results. In my early hunting years I used the same 260 gr Keith at 1,400 fps. out of a dozen antelope and one mule deer I have personally taken I can't see that it stops them one bit better than the 900 fps load. Why, well history will tell us, as Elmer said. Once you shoot completely through your intended target you've done all you can do



It is the perfect example of why the vast majority of experienced handgun hunters use a hard cast bullet for large game hunting and/or large animal defense. I am not talking about medium game like a 100 pound Whitetail, but bigger animals like large Mule Deer. Moose, Bears, etc.

FMJ is not a good choice. The round nose tends to slip through flesh causing very little permanent damage, unless something structural is hit. I have shot jackrabbits with 9mm, 10mm and .45 FMJ and had them hump up for a second, then run off with no immediate effect. Switching to a semi wadcutter, or any other profile with a large flat face/large meplat produces substantially better results with immediate visible effects on the animal when shot. The only thing I would hope to use FMJ for on a large animal is for a CNS shot, trying to shut down the brain. But in emergencies, you don't get to pick your shots, you get what you get and you may never actually have that opportunity, or you may never actually connect with your shots for various reasons. The realities of shooting in the field/combat/defense are not at all like being on a range.






^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ memtb



Yes indeed spot on



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Dont know about 180gr fmj's in 10mm, you didnt say if you hand load or not, do know i loaded up some 140gr Lehighs to 1550 fps in my DW 1911 10mm, i took two big old bath towels and wrapped a cow femur bone, zipped tied the towels securley in place, there may have been at least 40 layers of cotton towel around that bone, stood in the floor of a utility trailer and fired down on the center of the wrap, at the shot the bundle flipped up off the ground three feet in the air, the ties snapped, i could see bone fragments in the new dirt hole blasted in the ground, unwrapped the wad, a thumb sized hole was bored completely through the bone, i took a pic and sent it to JWP475, got his thumbs up approval on the test, not live green bone and real hide i know, but i'd have no hesitation using that one anything in an effort for it to find something else to do but jack with me, recoil is milder than you's expect and it runs like a fresh oiled sewing machine in the pistol.

All that said, you can call Montana Bullet Works, they'll sell you 250 coated 200gr flat nosed bullets cast harder than a whores heart for iirc 45 bucks shipped, i bought 500 for my 10mm, they run great, are accurate and have a plenty big enough meplat, i carry those easing up the mountain in ideally a north wind in the dark with my bow, big black bears, boar and mountain lions live up there, it's a mighty comforting set up to have along, i have no experience with charges and such, but have heard getting close and surprising any one of those animals could cause a charge, and that's exactly what could happen easing up a damp mountain road with a good wind in your face at dark thirty.


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
This will consistently shoot length ways and exit on mule deer and antelope at 100 yards.




This is my point, and sincerely not trying to argue this. I do occasioanlly carry LHC and do see merits in it. My concern is that we are missing the bigger picture on this topic, and that is stopping the threat. If something is gnawing on me...and I mean literally, whether or not the bullet exits is irrelevant. What is relevant is the gnawing stops as soon as I pull the trigger. That only happens if a CNS/vital is hit. Period. That's what stops it, nothing else. A bullet coming out the back end of a bear and ripping through intestines isn't relevant. And a bear can't be gwaning on me if his ass is facing me, so shooting lengthwise ass-to-head isn't necessary.

If possible, I'd prefer a bullet that entered and exploded; all energy used to turn the insides into mush. Guaranteed CNS/vital hit. Like a grenade, close enough would count. Obviously this doesn't exist in civilian handguns. I want something to penetrate about 18 inches and do as much damage as possible along the way. (We are talking black bear, that was the OP's threat.) If it goes through the animal, great, if not, great. It should penetrate 18" regardless of bone, grizzle, and hair. And it should be as wide a wound channel as possible, as wide as possible to increase chances of hitting a vital.

I agree FMJ's are not designed for this situation, they may work, but lead hardness varies, jacket thickness varies, etc. I will say, they generally penetrate very well in my limited testing - they will shoot through trees more reliably than LHC or XTP's. A tree is not an animal, I get that. LHC also penetrates well, but as to terminal damage, it's open for (my personal) debate. It's never been legal to hunt with where I've hunted the last 35 years. I've shot deer with 200gr. 10mm XTP's at 1200fps and the bullet went through every time and made a substantial wound channel. Often hitting ribs on entrance and exit. It performed perfectly, hence my thinking on black bear. I've never shot a bear or elk or moose with one. I think few, if any, of us have. DanInAlaska's anecdotal evidence is compelling about how well they work on big game, or not work as he points out.

While I've never had an XTP fail, fail in terms of penetration on big deer sized game. I've never found them after a kill as they penetrated fully, so can't say they opened up or not. I do know the exit wound was typically a pleasant 1 to 1-1/2" hole. (talking 10mm).

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Quote
And a bear can't be gwaning on me if his ass is facing me, so shooting lengthwise ass-to-head isn't necessary.


A bear 69 position... I could see a bear happily going about his business of chewing the chit out of a feller and stepping around you while he tries various bites on the anatomy of his victim.


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I have no experience in a situation like this - and hope I never do. I carry a 10mm auto 'just in case' and my thinking is that I will pull the trigger as many times as possible as quickly as possible with out analyzing bullet performance after each shot. I carry 200gr hard cast. My thinking is that if I can manage to shoot all the way through a bear 10 or 12 or 15 times (hopefully) then twice as many holes can't hurt. If I can shoot through his skull then into his body because of 'too much penetration' how is that a negative?

I have often wondered about the Underwood extreme penetrators also. Their descriptions sound like they would do it all. Who knows?

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Ive shot a few deer w 180, 200 and 240 xtp.
They blew on through if out a ways ( broadside chest hits )
Used a couple for coup de grace and up close tbey came apart and were on offside hide or didnt make it that far ( 4" and 6" Smith 629s )

Think an XTP to be OK for deer but not perfect.
240s in Mz seemed to zip on through. Forget what the TC sabot stuff was. Same deal.

NEVER have I gotten a fist sized exit.

In fact, exits seem pretty small.

Sample size is under two dozen.

Tried the old Rem 240 gr JHP in sabot ( .44 cal in a .5O ).
Old days, 100gr of powder in MZ

Same deal, small in and out, nothing fantastic.

If I was gonna use a rig for something that might chew on me, would NOT be an XTP.

Granted, Ive not shot the 300 grainers. I disliked the recoil.
Broke my trigger pivot on my 4" 629 too.

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As a future 10mm owner I was wondering about what bullets to try on deer.

Thanks G500, will check those you mentioned above 😊

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Originally Posted by DanInAlaska
I dug this 200gr XTP out of a 54" bull moose....
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I walked in on him, thinking he was already dead. Nope!

I shot him several times at less than 20 yards. Trust me; it sounds like a lot more fun than actually was.

The 200gr XTPs were propelled by 12.5gr of AA #9, and launched out of 5.25" XDm, for 1200+ fps. This bullet was recovered from the near side lung, not much penetration. I didn't dig around for any of the other 10mm bullets, but based on the condition of the far-side lung, it's safe to say that none of the other bullets made it that far.

Use whatever bullet/ammunition/handgun combination you'd like, but I don't plan to carry any more hollow points in my handgun, when I'm venturing into the woods with big critters.

By the way, here is a 168gr T-TSX that I pulled out of the same moose. It was a 140yd, broadside shot, out of .300 Win Mag. The bullet went through the shoulder, a couple of ribs, and came to rest on the far-side shoulder blade. It lost a couple of pedals, but otherwise opened up nicely.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here is the offending moose, fat guy added for scale:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]





Good post and a much needed dose of reality here. Congrats on the moose, top notch eating.


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Originally Posted by SargeMO
Originally Posted by DanInAlaska
I dug this 200gr XTP out of a 54" bull moose....
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I walked in on him, thinking he was already dead. Nope!

I shot him several times at less than 20 yards. Trust me; it sounds like a lot more fun than actually was.

The 200gr XTPs were propelled by 12.5gr of AA #9, and launched out of 5.25" XDm, for 1200+ fps. This bullet was recovered from the near side lung, not much penetration. I didn't dig around for any of the other 10mm bullets, but based on the condition of the far-side lung, it's safe to say that none of the other bullets made it that far.

Use whatever bullet/ammunition/handgun combination you'd like, but I don't plan to carry any more hollow points in my handgun, when I'm venturing into the woods with big critters.

By the way, here is a 168gr T-TSX that I pulled out of the same moose. It was a 140yd, broadside shot, out of .300 Win Mag. The bullet went through the shoulder, a couple of ribs, and came to rest on the far-side shoulder blade. It lost a couple of pedals, but otherwise opened up nicely.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here is the offending moose, fat guy added for scale:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]





Good post and a much needed dose of reality here. Congrats on the moose, top notch eating.


I'd like to know how one of those new 200gr A-Frames would do in comparison.

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