Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading New .38 Spl +P Load

I have been on a quest for a good "+P" .38 Special load. Most published data that I've found is mostly for 110 gr bullets. I wanted to find something that would safely push a 158 gr LSWC through a 4 inch barrel with a muzzle velocity at or greater than 950 FPS. Most data that I have seen, if you read the small print, use 7 inch or such unrealistically long test barrels, and for the most part I'm sure without any cylinder gap. This is just not reality. My .38s and .357s have 4 inch and 2 inch barrels. I am quite sure this is also the case with 75%+ of those that exist. The following loads are what I have come up with that were shot with my S&W M-19 .357 with a 4 inch barrel: All bullets were coated lead 158 gr SWCs and velocities are the average of multiple shots of each loading. Brass is mixed .38 Special. There were no signs of over pressure seen. The fired brass was easily re-inserted into the chambers, no leading, and no deformed primers.

4.3 gr. Titegroup - CCI SP primer - 906 FPS
5.0 gr. Universal - CCI SP primer - 916 FPS
5.2 gr. Unique - CCI SP primer - 957 FPS
5.4 gr. CFE Pistol - WSP primer - 890 FPS
6.7 gr. Vihtavori 3N37-WSP primer - 1007 FPS

I was particularly impressed with the Vihtavori 3N37 load as it produced by far the best velocity. While VV does not list any .38 Spl +P loads per se, this was their max published load using this powder and a 158 gr. Hornady XTP bullet. Unfortunately, they do not list any pressures with their data. I surmised that by using the same weight bullet and it being a coated lead instead of a jacketed bullet, the pressure should be a bit less and therefore safe to use this data. They also list a higher powder charge of 6.9 gr. for a 158 gr. copper plated bullet, so again I felt comfortable with the 6.7 gr. powder charge I tested with my coated lead SWCs. While I really cannot say what the actual pressure of this load is, maybe the pressure level really doesn't get into "+P" territory? The velocity certainly does and I am quite comfortable that pressure is not excessive. JMHO,YMMV

You’ve got room to go up on the Unique load IMO, as long as you’re using modern revolvers. My standard load is 5.5 under a 158-170gr SWC and I’ve been known to take it up to 6.0gr in my N frames.

Good info though, thanks.

Thanks for the info about your Unique load. Good info to be had.

I would not consider your Unique load a +P load.

IIRC, a long time ago a series of test was posted.It might have even been by Big Stick.It stated in a 2-3 " revolver with .357 std loads, produced about the same velocities as a std 38 sp load in a longer barrel. My J frame 66 pretty much confirmed that

Plenty of room with Hodgdon Longshot and +P 38's. If you need more horsepower within pressure limits, 2400 has been there since it's inception.

IMHO placement is far more important than a few FPS in a .38 load.

If one is inclined to inflict significant harm load the linked bullets upside down.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/hornad...148-gr-hollow-base-wadcutter-250-bo.html

Those soft swaged bullets lead the bore terribly when pushed over 850 fps. Sometimes they upon up like a huge hollowpoint, which then greatly limits penetration. In this case the wound path is good, just shallow. Sometimes the front cavity pinches inward and folds into itself and they bore a small hole through. The backwards wadcutters were sorta a thing in the 70's and maybe early 80's. With more experience they seem to be a no-go thing in modern times. Lot's of experienced guys will load a hardcast wadcutter flat face on and even at standard 850 fps velocities they are surprisingly effective. That load is available in factory loads from Buffalo Bore and Underwood.

Our experiences do not align. They never leaded nor failed to wreak mayhem. 3.0 gr Bullseye from a 2” snubby. Primary targets were big toothy fish that did not want to spit my lures out. They will decapitate a 5’ cuda and render 6-7’ sharks dead still...one shot. At any rate, the average heart/lung is only a very few inches behind the ribs. Guts are just below the skin as are kneecaps. Skulls aren’t that thick. Screw 2 holes and tracking.

I mostly used the Speer product. Might be that the Speer was softer, the lube different, ect. I know I pushed them faster than what you were probably getting from your 2" Chief's Special. Speaking of shooting fish... I have a buddy that has a private lake with an over abundance of very large carp and tons of turtles. I have permission to fish but also have standing orders to shoot every turtle or carp I get a chance at. One time I was fishing for bluegill in a shallow cove and watched a half dozen of those big carp slowly ease into the cove. They were like whales or something, the drifted along and occasionally surfaced and seemed to suck something off the surface of the water. I was packing a 4" M19 S&W .357 with handloads of the old Speer 146 gr. half jacket hollowpoint stoked by a charge of #2400. I didn't have a chronograph back then but the load manual said I should have been getting about 1,300 fps from my 4". I waited until the angle was just right and I hammered one of those carp just behind the eyes and center of the head. At the shot the carp just rolled over and sank. The water was shallow and I could see that I didn't blow that carp's head off like I expected. I waded out and recovered that dude and was shocked to see the base of the bullet flush with the scales on the head. I plucked that perfectly expanded hollowpoint out of that carps head with my fingers! I still think that was strange bullet performance.

The impact may have been greatly slowed by water. A difficult medium to penetrate.

I've shot a bit of swagged lead bullets including the Speer product. Not enough at once to have any conclusion about leading as compared to cast. I think the Speer can usually withstand greater velocity than the Hornady one's. I try to keep them for mild loads.

Apparently from what I've read. 357mag brass was scarce way back when. Many scribes of the day including Keith, Skelton, and Taffin loaded 38spl brass to magnum strength for use in magnum revolvers. If I had the brass, I'd be more inclined to download magnum cases for less jump to the rifling.

I wish Speer would use their plating process to replicate that old bullet.

EarlyA - I considered that. I doubt the bullet penetrated more than 3"-4" of water before impacting the fish head. Probably that had something to do with it, I'm guessing those great big scales on that mega carp are pretty tough. But I expected a much more graphic terminal effect.

Hmm. Seems most loading manuals would disagree with that. Just looked in four that I have in front of me. Ain't happening.

I have a bunch of those swaged speer 158g hpswc bullets. I need to work up a load for the 38 spc lcr that will work in my 2" 360 pd and 3" sp101. I'd like to get it to over 850 fps in the 2" guns but be under 950 in the 3".

I have some universal that I'm not using for anything else so I thought about starting with it at about 5g. I'd like to move them fast enough to expand but avoid leading problems. I have lots of other powders. What's a good 38 load with the swaged speer? When the local shop closed them out at half price I stocked up.

Bb

In a modern revolver such as a Ruger of S&M H-110/296 could easily push a 158 grain hardcadt or jacketed any where from 1050 to 1200 FPS

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/91534-duplicating-buffalo-bore-fbi-load.html

This link is an interesting read about duplicating Buffalo Bore's 38 Special +P "FBI load" (158 grain lead SWCHP 38 Special +P). Buffalo Bore (and these tested loads) generated these muzzle velocities: 2" barrel = 1040 fps, and 4" barrel = 1160 fps.

Note: no loads were pressure tested. (neither Buffalo Bore factory load, nor any reloads). MV may have been duplicated, but no pressure testing was done.

+P+ level for reloads???

Starline has .38 Special brass today. They are out of stock on the +p head stamp .38 Special

1200 FPS? Based on my reloading manuals and online loads I gotta raise the BS flag on that!

Another great powder for +P .38 loads (and for .357 Magnum as well) is SR 4756. I believe it's discontinued, but there is still some out there. I load 6 grains with a SP magnum primer and use the 140 grain Hornady XTP. I prefer the old Speer 146 grain but it's long gone.

My Poly-Kote +P .38 Special 158 grain SWC load averages 1115 FPS from a 4" Combat Masterpiece.

It averages 1200 from a 6" Ruger Security-6.

It is a commercial load:



https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...l-p-158-grain-poly-coat-swc#Post17709461


If the Buffalo Bore company says they are getting similar numbers I would be inclined to believe them. The owner of BB knows what he is doing.

You know you don't have to buy SM gun exploder ammo.
LOL

What does the SM stand for, reference SM gun exploder ammo?

Put it backwards.
LOL

Are you saying MS, as in my ammo is "gun exploder" ammo?

Nah just goofing on the guys that give you crap about velocity/pressure.

This is great. Sounds more or less identical to the BB 38 sp 158 +P LSWCHP I've chronoed. That stuff all got 1100 fps from several different 3" steel framed S&W's I shot it in. Creeping right up on .357 mag with a fraction of the bang and flash.

I used to load a lot of 158 gr. cast .38 with 9.0 gr. 2400 and CCI 500. I didn't have a chrono back then but, it was mild. I load mostly 5.0 and 5.5 gr. Unique now with 158 gr swc.

Anyone that wouldn't hesitate to own a 9mm K-frame or larger revolver but doesn't think a 38 Special can't surpass it at less pressure don't apparently know how to go about things. I wouldn't load it to 357 levels, but theres a a ton of "room" people just don't equate with the 38 for some reason.

Staying away from old school Winchester cases or new Remington cases helps. And "Blazer" cases may look like Federal or Speer cases, but they aren't.

FWIW, Sierra VI edition lists a 1,200 fps. 158gr. JACKETED load fired from a 5.6 inch barrel with 2400 and two other powders at 1,150. 170 gr loads clock 1,100. These are 38 +P rated loads, meaning they are under 20,000PSI and CUP, a long ways and a lot of safety margin compared to a 9mm that's been chambered in the same/similar revolvers.

Throw in lead slugs and the speeds with the same powder charges get quicker.....

Personally I think the 173 Keith or a 180 dual crimp LBT at 1100-1150 does a whole lot of work with a lot of accuracy and its on the heels of a 357 without as much fuss and way beyond the 9mm with far less pressure than either.

5.5grs of Unique and a 173gr Keith is a wonderful combination.

What Hawk wrote is quite true.

The naysayers with this stuff "Based on my reloading manuals and online loads I gotta raise the BS flag on that" just makes me shake my head.

What they are saying is that they have zero personal experience. They are simply reading stuff online and guessing, but they feel qualified to question someone's honesty who has actually put in the work and developed the loads. In the case of custom manufacturers that tends to be some rather extensive research and development.

But hey if the armchair expert says based on his online research it can't be done, then that trumps the people who actually do it for a living.

The funny thing is that in the case of the +P .38 SWC Poly-Coat I referenced above, there was room to go faster, and attain more velocity, and in fact I did with some T&E loads. But due to the fact that there are some people who may put it in a gun that is not mechanically sound, I settled on the velocity window I did, in addition to the fact that it showed excellent accuracy. There is always a sweet spot, and that was it.

People forget (or don't know) that there are modern propellants (cannister powders) that are not available to the general public. When they are trying to guess and make assumptions about what a manufacturer is using, they are quite often/usually wrong.





Jacketed, hard cast, and poly-coated projectiles all will give different velocities when pushed with the same powder charge. That is a fact that is lost or simply unknown to a good many.

That is called a "Clue"..

I've been playing with VV n37 and n38 and 105 lately and have been pretty impressed with them. I found some of my favorite pistol powders Longshot, be-86, power pistol and titrgroup seemed to be interacting with my powder coating on my cast bullets. I went looking for good single base options and found VV powders.

The n105 makes some great almost full house magnum loads without going to the higher grain weight charges I uses to hit with pp300mp or h110 or magnum. I give up a little velocity but get many more loads per pound.

I've always been a fan of mid speed powders for efficiency with decent speed. I've used a lot of Longshot, power pistol, and in more recent years be-86. Hard to best Longshot in a 40 or 10mm but powdercoating sent me looking for other options.

I've got a bunch of speer swaged 158g 38 hpswc bullets I bought for half of about 5 years ago. I need to find a load for them and crank out a bunch. I'm wrapping up my 45 acp then I'll do some 45 colt and then switch to small primers and start on 38. I'd like to get about 850 from my lcr and 360pd both with 1&7/8" barrels. That may be pushing it but I've got some universal I need to use so i thought I'd start with about 5 grains. If that doesn't work I nay try vv n37 or 38 next.

When I find a load that shoots I'll crank out 1000 or so. I'll also use it in my 3", 4" and 6" 357s so I want it under 1000 fps in those guns too. I've heard these swagged Speers can lead bad if you run them too fast.

What's a good powder for 850 with the swagged 158 in a 2"ish gun that stays under 1000 in a 6"? I'm thinking faster burning powders will keep the difference at a minimum. I've also got lots of wsf I'm not using so I may try it too.

Bb

"... I found some of my favorite pistol powders Longshot, be-86, power pistol and titegroup seemed to be interacting with my powder coating on my cast bullets...".

Bb, interacting how?