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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by beretzs
I have never been that far off DF, but generally you use the +20 in the back and -20 negative in the front. They come with good instructions on what you’ll need in order to get it squared up. Depending on the length between the rings that should get you close to center.

The rings should come with a cheat sheet that even a Marine can’t mess up, too badly grin

You right about that. Great instruction even an old Army guy can follow. Maybe even a Marine. blush

It was a pleasure working with these Signature rings and offset inserts.

Ya reckon one can over think these things. Seems I did.

Bottom line, +10 at the rear for elevation, lateral 5 at the front for windage, it's now on solid at 25 yds. I haven't shot it yet, but after 50 yrs. of bore sighting, I know where it is. +20 at the rear was too much.

And, the P-64 bolt handle misses the Trijicon power ring. Those are quality rings. I know they'll slide off the Weaver bases, but I won't try that until I'm done and the rings are tight where they're gonna stay.

Thanks,

DF


I kinda knew you were thinking too hard on it. The instructions are darned good and really lay it well. They’re a great solution rather than the old ways of cutting beer cans and stuff like that.


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It worked out in spite of all my ”thinking” and figuring.

Trial and error reigns. I’m happy. Gun seems to be happy, too.

DF

Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 10/06/21.
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I do the same DF. I know I use them in a few rifles and am happy with them. My 338 wears them as well along with a few others. They are nicer to me than a darned rail. For me, I’d rather put wheels on my gun than a pic rail.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
I do the same DF. I know I use them in a few rifles and am happy with them. My 338 wears them as well along with a few others. They are nicer to me than a darned rail. For me, I’d rather put wheels on my gun than a pic rail.

10-4 on rails for hunting guns.

To each his own, just my take.

DF

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Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
A Loony just can't help being a Loony.

I have more scope combos, load combos for this .358 Win than about any rifle I've ever fooled with and that includes a bunch.

The Trijicon 3-9x40 in the horizontal Warne med rings was within 4 clicks of being at the edge of the adjustment range. It worked OK,

But, a Loony just doesn't like that. So, I've ordered a medium set of Burris Signature rings and an offset insert set. I've adjusted the Trijicon to the center of the adjustment range. I went from end to end and found there were 270 clicks, wall to wall. So, I went half way with elevation and windage, which should have the reticle pretty well centered.

I'm going to manipulate the offset inserts until it's as close as I can get it, then fine tune POI with the scope adjustments. To the Trijicon's credit, there was no evidence of optical issues at the edge of the adjustment range. It's just the idea more than anything.

I've never used Signature rings, but have read good things about them. I think I can bore sight the rifle, adjust the offsets to get pretty close, then shoot it.

Those rings aren't as easy to remove and replace as the Warnes. Hopefully, I can remove the bottom screws and slide the rings off the bases.

Any advice?

DF


I have had to use the Burris rings a few times, especially on P64's. My 338 Alaskan is bad enough that it just about maxes out elevation in a scope on flat mounts, so the Burris XTR's work perfect to get some elevation back into the mix.

They are a bit of a pain to get mounted, but I wouldn't fret it too much DF, Favor the insert to the windage correction and I bet you'll be darned close.

I haven't tried sliding them off like that but I think it might work since the Burris rings with inserts will take the stress off the tube.

That's interesting info about P-64's and scope rings. I didn't realize that until I was working with this one.

DF


Just the nature of the beast I guess. Some were fine and some were put together a touch crooked. I'd assume that is why the old Redfield type windage mounts were somewhat popular back then. Today, with the Burris set up's, it really isn't a big deal.

Even the newer ones sometimes have problems. I built .404J using a 300 RUM, SS NH M-70 donor. I used steel Talley bases for QD rings. I found that the action screw holes were canted to the left. I had my smith drill 8x40 holes. He couldn't use the 6x48 factory holes because they were too far off. He had to off set those holes for the new ones, had to drill new holes in the bases. So, with that gun, one would have to consider those bases permanent. So it wasn't just P-64's.

DF

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Well, I got the Trijicon mounted in offset Signature rings. I learned that by putting the base tightening screws on one side or the other, the scope moves slightly to the take up side. On the right, the P-64 bolt handle brushed the Trijicon power adjustment ring. On the left, there is clearance. Pretty cool.

And with the ring screws tight, I removed the base tightening screws and the scope slid right off the bases. Now, it does take some jiggling to get them lined up and back in place, but it works. I can swap out scopes for other classes of ammo. The .358 is pretty amazing how many types of bullets, loads it can shoot. The POI can be pretty different, so swapping scopes sighted for each category is the way to go.

I think this Trijicon with the 160 Raptor load may be my main WT and hog combo. Would be hard to not go with that one. The gun has a near perfect 3# trigger And, yes, the old style M-70 trigger can be tweaked to a really good pull without slack, creep, noticeable overtravel, etc. This one is there.

You may notice that the rear of the front ring is flush with the rear of the base. I wanted the scope back a tad, so filed a wider recoil slot in the front Weaver base. The rear base recoil slot will prevent any movement, and don't think the .358 kicks enough to move the scope, anyway. For sure there won't be movement of the scope in the rings. Those inserts really grip the scope tube.

DF

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Working on loads. The 160 Raptor has been a good performer over X-Term and RL-7. The way that bullet is made, I have to compress powder, which isn't a big deal, But, I prefer not to if possible.

The 178 Hammer has also performed well, about as accurate as the Raptor. The Hammer is designed to be low resistance and thus can be pushed faster. Note their proprietary bands. It also is sleeker, has a longer COAL than the Raptor in this gun. .358 Win data is pretty conservative, probably in consideration of older guns. A strong, modern bolt gun can probably handle more pressure than a vintage Savage 99.

Here is a photo showing the relationship of the Raptor 160 and the Hammer 178, both seated in dummy rounds. The Pre-64 "short action" set up has a generous box mag. It starts at around 3" and tapers a bit. The COAL of the Hammer in this gun is in the 2.9" range, Raptor 2.7" or so. Giving it some jump, the Hammer load is still pretty long. Plenty of room in this box. Notice powder room with the Hammer compared to the Raptor.

This .358 doesn't like the 200 gr Horn IL, the 200 NBT. or most heavier bullets, have not tried the 225 NPT. This gun prefers lighter bullets even though it's a 12 twist. Doesn't always have to make sense, just gotta listen to the gun.

BTW, the Raptor group I posted, as you probably figured, wasn't repeatable. But the Raptor and Hammer will both shoot MOA or better consistently. Don't we always post our best groups.... grin

Doesn't mean we can repeat them.... wink

DF

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I'm liking the 178 Hammer. It shoots MOA or close with 46 gr. RL-7 and 52 gr. TAC. Not sure which one I want to use.

The 203 Hammer also shot good over RL-7, just hit a bit lower.

The Hammer doesn't need to sit as far down in the case, doesn't require as much powder compression.

They say it expands pretty well, sorta like a soft TTSX. Some say it sheds pedals like the Raptor. I don't know.

May take the .358 M-70 FWT deer hunting this weekend. I'll use one of the 178 Hammer loads and will report if I draw blood.

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I'm going with 46 gr. RL-7. Group seemed slightly tighter than the 52 TAC load. Either one would work.

And the bottom of the 178 Hammer bullet is just slightly into the 46 gr. powder column, which is at the top of the shoulder, slightly into the neck. No air space, minimal if any compression.

This Lee seater is hit or miss. Some rounds are about perfect, other have some run out. I know this isn't a long range target set up, I just like my rounds concentric. So after the Lee Factory crimp, I check them with a Sinclair gauge, correct runout with a TruAngle tool. I can often get what I'm looking for with one adjustment, sometimes it takes two or three. I probably need a better seater. I got the Lee die set because I wanted their Factory Crimp Die and getting it with a set is the cheapest way to go.

DF

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That's pretty cool. I believe you'll enjoy working with that one.

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As if I don’t have a safe full of hunting rifles.

Must be a Loony thing.

DF

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I wouldn't turn one down for any reason. Be Well, RZ.


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Follow up on the .358 Win.

I killed a 100# doe at 60 yds. this morning with the 178 gr. Hammer at around 2,800 fps. Haven't clocked it yet, but that's probably close. Will report when I get around to clocking it. Their proprietary scalloped banding reportedly cuts down on resistance; they tend to run faster than conventional bullets from what I've read.

Hit deer behind the right shoulder, it clipped the rear of the left shoulder on exit. Heart and lungs were messed up pretty bad. She jumped, ran, stumbling for nearly 40 yds, piled up, never out of sight.

Here are photos of her heart and lungs, entrance right rib cage, exit left and left shoulder. Shoulder looks worse than it is. Some blood shot, but not that extensive. Sorta gory looking but how else ya gonna know without seeing the carnage.

The Hammer is reportedly a softer mono, and from what I've seen, would have to agree. It evidently expanded pretty well. I didn't think to look for a blood trail, as there she lay, dead. Based on internal damage, entrance and exit holes, probably adequate..

DF

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Love those mid bores

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Originally Posted by jkinpa
Love those mid bores

Me, too.

I don't mind pushing the .358 Win a bit in a strong bolt gun. A lot of the data takes into consideration, older lever guns.

The primer is starting to flatten a bit with this load, not that primers are a trusted pressure indictor. Using the faster powder may have something to do with that and this is a pretty hot load for that bullet. It shoots tight groups and it's a killer.

What's not to like.

And the old Pre-64 is a pleasure to work with.

DF

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You’re right.

You’ve got some very nice rifles and make some excellent posts!

Thanks, I enjoy them.
Appreciate you taking the time to share.

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Originally Posted by jkinpa
You’re right.

You’ve got some very nice rifles and make some excellent posts!

Thanks, I enjoy them.
Appreciate you taking the time to share.

Thank you for those kind words.

I enjoy the technical aspects about as much as the actual hunt. I’m more of a gun nut, the hunt is my laboratory and testing ground if that makes any sense.

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That's some good work and tasty vittles DF. Looks like a bulletin went out warning all of my woods loafing with my post 64 .358. All I have seen have been 1 1/2 year old spikes, not a grown deer among them. Probably go out in the morning again.


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Follow up on the .358 Win.

I killed a 100# doe at 60 yds. this morning with the 178 gr. Hammer at around 2,800 fps. Haven't clocked it yet, but that's probably close. Will report when I get around to clocking it. Their proprietary scalloped banding reportedly cuts down on resistance; they tend to run faster than conventional bullets from what I've read.

Hit deer behind the right shoulder, it clipped the rear of the left shoulder on exit. Heart and lungs were messed up pretty bad. She jumped, ran, stumbling for nearly 40 yds, piled up, never out of sight.

Here are photos of her heart and lungs, entrance right rib cage, exit left and left shoulder. Shoulder looks worse than it is. Some blood shot, but not that extensive. Sorta gory looking but how else ya gonna know without seeing the carnage.

The Hammer is reportedly a softer mono, and from what I've seen, would have to agree. It evidently expanded pretty well. I didn't think to look for a blood trail, as there she lay, dead. Based on internal damage, entrance and exit holes, probably adequate..

DF

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]





I sent this link to the Hammer web site...

Steve Davis replied that if you look, you can see where the petals exited. Pretty neat, hadn't noticed but he's right. I wasn't sure if Hammer bullets fragged like CEB's, but evidently they do. As noted earlier, I chose Hammer over CEB because of the bullet shape and ability to seat them out farther. This particular bullet is sleeker than the 160 CEB. Accuracy and terminal performance seem to be pretty close. With the .358 Win, case capacity can be an issue and the Hammer 178 allows a bit more room. Probably a Loony thing, but it is what it is.

Thought I'd post his observations and do appreciate his attention to detail and to my email. Seems that level of involvement contributes to their success.

Check out their web site. Pretty neat.

DF

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Just dawned on me that the spun off petals could be what whacked the shoulder like that. Check out those small wounds, 360* around the main exit hole.

Interesting.


DF

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