Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB can you give your opinion on velocity / expansion with Barnes bullets

In particular, can you comment on this thread? Thanks.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/16648719/1

Barnes recommends minimum velocities for each bullet and the minimums are not the same. This has always been the case.

I have personally never experienced a failure to expand with a TSX not even at 777 yards on an antelope

I have seen TSXs fail to expand in calibers from .30 on down, probably because they have much smaller hollow-points than TSXs above .30. One was a 100-grain started at over 3500 fps from a .257 Weatherby, which I put just behind the shoulder of a broadside pronghorn buck, with the heaviest body we've ever weighed. When he finally fell after loping (not running fast) for around 250 yards, there was no sign of expansion in either the exit hole or the lungs. Had another from the same batch apparently fail to expand, or at least not expand much, on a forkhorn mule deer my wife shot with the .257 Roberts at about 50 yards, muzzle velocity 3150 fps.

Good friends who are knowledgeable and experienced hunters have also had .30 and under TSX's fail to expand, sometimes on game large enough for the bullet to be recovered. One was a 140-grain from a .270 Winchester that barely started to open, but the petals only spread as wide as the bullet diameter.

Haven't had any sign of TTSXs or LRXs failing to expand on any big game up to and including elk size, at ranges out to 400+ yards, even when started at velocities as low as 2800 fps, including broadside lung shots on animals as small as pronghorns.

Dunno about the Barnes numbers, as have seen expansion with Barnes and many other bullets vary considerably not just with impact velocity but where they were hit.

I've had bad experience with 168 gr TSX bullets in a 300 Weatherby. 2 deer lost and a 3rd I was able to shoot 3 times to anchor him. 1st Bullet broke shoulder going in and passed through top of the heart and exited. Internals were completely intact with a clean 30 cal hole through them. He started running on 3 legs after first shot at 175 yards. 2nd shot dropped him but it was because I did not lead him enough and bullet went through hindquarters/hip and broke him down.

Still kicking on the ground, I put a third one through this neck. Ruined a bunch of meat on that deer.

Switched to the 168 gr TTSX and problem solved.

Use the TTSX or LRX and don't worry about expansion. The plastic tip initiates expansion while the hollow point of the TSX relies on hydraulic pressure. The plastic tips are much more reliable.

There's no reason to use a TSX when the TTSX and LRX are available.

The TSX are more magazine friendly, however

Just use a Nosler Partition.

Having never Elk hunted before (going to NM in 2022) and being on the major OCD spectrum, it does not take much for me to over analyze new things. I have been hunting a long time, but never out West.

So, I am using my Rem 700 BDL .30-06 that I bought new in 1973. It seems to be shooting the 168 TTSX around 3/4 of an inch. MV is 2847 fps.

My range goes to 550 yards, but I have only recently worked up the '06 load so have stayed at 100.

It looks like I will be around 2075 fps at 400. Since this will probably be my once in a lifetime Elk hunt, I want to be able to shoot to 400 if need be. Hence my concerns. I really would love to hear that the claimed minimum velocity of 1500 fps is real and 2000 fps at 400 yards is well within max expansion for that bullet's impact velocity.

These bullets do shoot well, but would i be better off with a 160 Partition? Humor me here

Sakoluvr: does your range allow for non-traditional targets? If so get some wine boxes (excellent reason to buy wine 😃) or other similar sized boxes.

Fill them with mixed paper tape two of the boxes together in a way to maximize length. Tape a scrap piece of 1/2” plywood to the back to catch any bullet which makes it through the paper. . Put the boxes into a 3 mil garbage bag. Tape the bag so it fits tightly to the paper box. Fill with water and let it sit for a while.

Place target on the front of the box. Shoot at the range you wish to test expansion at.

Call the shots since the first impact into the box will expand more due to the amount of free water in the plastic bag.

Although there is no test media which replicates shooting animals you will be able to get an idea of expansion at the distances you are concerned about.

I did this test a few years ago and my conclusion was with my loads in my .325 WSM I would not use the 180 grain TSX beyond 400 yards. I would gladly use the 200 grain accubond.

My testing in other calibres and cartridges show much more consistent expansion with the TTSX and the LRX than the TSX. Just like the statements of several posts above.

By doing your own testing it will give your OCD something to chew on and will give you data from your rifle with your loads at the distances you are concerned about.

Just my thoughts.

GRF

+1

Great post, GRF. I was just about to suggest something similar. I'd probably be content to use dry paper, though.

Jordan: the wet paper I find to be a “softer” media stressing the bullet less therefore allowing for less expansion and greater penetration therefore I use it where I am concerned about lack of expansion.

I use dry paper at close distances to “torture test” a bullets ability to remain intact. Sometimes I’ll run a hybrid test combing wet paper, dry paper and bits of plywood.

Too much time on my hands 😃?

Thanks! I will have to ask the owner of the range before I try it. I know he mentioned non-trad targets are not allowed but maybe he will make an exception for expansion tests. I think he is trying to avoid folks blowing things apart and making a mess too.

Great point. Wet paper would represent a worst-case scenario for minimum expansion, while dry paper would be worst-case for the bullet's ability to hold together.

What the hell does Joe Biden know about bullets???







😀😀😀😀😀😀

Curious. I have read a number of threads about certain Barnes bullets failing to expand and was wondering if there was something we could do to ensure expansion like opening the HP cavity with a drill bit to cause quicker / more positive expansion. .

I have some TSX and some older pre-TSX Barnes bullets that may benefit if the bigger cavity works.

Has anyone ever done this?

Did it work?

I doubt you could do that precisely enough not to affect bullet balance, and hence accuracy.

Brilliant - but of course the thread is about monos.

While I prefer Partition's, a lot of good people I like and respect don't wish to have lead pepper in their game meat or ending up in birds of prey...

Here's a couple of 165 TSX's from circa 2005... the left 165 was shot into wet phone books at 300 yards, while the right was shot into a bedded 6pt bull elk at 50 yards. Both from a 21" bbl'd 30-06 with a MV of 2,875 fps. I actually shot the 300 yard through my chronograph set up at 300 yards, but I can't remember the velocity. That gave me enough confidence it would open at that range, and 325 yards is the farthest I've ever shot an elk. Later that fall I used it on the bull.



I did have a 150 TTSX fail to open on a raghorn bull. 308 Win, 125 yards. Somehow it managed to get pinched shut on entry, and was found backwards on the off side. Obviously it didn't work as designed, but it also killed the elk (who wants 150 grains of copper tumbling through their lungs)?



As to the OP, it's interesting and I do wonder if there's any truth to the 168 TTSX being softer/quicker opening than the 150 or 165 TTSX? I doubt I'll care to find out for myself, but someone younger and more intrigued might?!

I really can see the value of the LRX, especially that 127 6.5 or 139 7mm...

Good data there Brad. It certainly would give me second thoughts about a 400 yard shot at a Bull Elk, no? Maybe the tipped version would have expanded more at 300. The 168 might just be the huckleberry for the '06 then out to 400.

The campfire mantra is shoot for bone when using Barnes, at least I read here numerous times.

Brad’s experience is one of the only failures I’ve seen reported with the TTSX, even in the several years since he first reported it. I’d consider it an anomaly and not worry too much, as long as impact velocity is kept up at 2000 fps or above.

I’ve also seen failures reported with the Partition, but I also consider them to be anomalous and very unlikely to occur.