Specifically about using deadly force in self-defense.
It is staggering how few gun owners and carriers have read their state's self defense laws. Let me lay down a few bullet points on self defense.
1. Read your state's laws and know their specific language.
2. Know that the specific language was chosen purposefully.
3. The words feel, felt, and feelings don't appear in any state's law that I know of. The word fear appears in very few. Reasonable belief and reasonably believe appear in all of them that I have read. There's an important reason for that.
4. If you ever use deadly force in self defense it is going to suck in countless ways. You really do want to avoid it as much as you can. It can be expensive.
5. When you use deadly force, you need to know that your definition of reasonable no longer matters. Law enforcement and jurors get to decide what is reasonable from that point forward.
6. Your social media postings WILL become known. Lot's of keyboard bravado here and elsewhere on the worldwide web. If your day comes, you'll get to explain to the court how it was harmless, idle chest thumping all 207 times you did it on the net, and not an indication of your true mindset.
7. Using deadly force is not a casual undertaking.
Post up your state's self-defense laws if you wish. Louisiana's are worded somewhat oddly.
Justifiable use of deadly force is defined in Florida Statute Section 776.012(2):
A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
"Stand your ground" means that you no longer have a duty to run away before using deadly force if you are in a place you have a right to be and if you aren't engaged in criminal activity.
A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
Florida Statute Section 776.013 deals with justifiable use of force in a person's home or vehicle.
A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or threatening to use defensive force that is intended to likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
the person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, or had removed or attempted to remove another from, a:
dwelling
residence
occupied vehicle, and
the person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
However, this presumption does not apply if:
the person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person, or the person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened, or the person who uses or threatens to use defensive force is engaged in a criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further a criminal activity, or the person against whom the defensive force is used or threatened is a law enforcement officer who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
Last edited by Muffin; 12/03/21.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Justifiable use of deadly force is defined in Florida Statute Section 776.012(2):
A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
Muffin, back during the Zimmerman incident, I read FL law. IIRC it is housed under two legal umbrellas. Something about preventing a forcible felony. It's been a while, so I may be wrong on that.
Some communities make a distinction between subjective reasonableness and objective reasonableness. Law enforcement, prosecutors, and the jury must conclude that you really did believe your storybof the circumstances (that you are not just lying) and that you really believed deadly force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm. AND, they must agree that it actually was reasonable in the eyes of society, which they represent.
self defensive rules . # 1 stay out of bad areas where bad people live # 2 always watch you back and your families back too # 3 keep your hand gun loaded, extra clip and learn how to use it well # 4 sharp knife might help also # 5 make sure you have good insurance and one heck of a good attorney # 6 forget all this crap and run like hell ! " being judged is better than being buried "
I was a Police Officer in the 14th largest city in the US for 33 years. I always knew what the state of Ohio laws said about self defense. I was bound by Oath and Duty to get involved in crimes committed in my presence, even when off duty. Now that I'm retired, and seeing the political climate in this country, I have to put the blinders on unless it's something really serious (Active shooter etc). I was just talking to my wife about a local Deputy who was just indicted for 2 counts of murder for an on duty shooting while working on a task force. I've really had to re-evaluate my ideas on using my concealed handgun. I will never allow some miscreant to harm me or my family because of the fear of arrest and prison. I still like to think that I'm Col headed enough to quickly evaluate a situation and act accordingly. I have always supported a citizen's right to carry and defend themselves or their family.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Orwell
Some communities make a distinction between subjective reasonableness and objective reasonableness. Law enforcement, prosecutors, and the jury must conclude that you really did believe your storybof the circumstances (that you are not just lying) and that you really believed deadly force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm. AND, they must agree that it actually was reasonable in the eyes of society, which they represent.
Great post.
This should scare the hell out of everyone.
"AND, they must agree that it actually was reasonable in the eyes of society, which they represent."
We need to recognize that our society as hunters, shooters and strong 2A proponents doesn't mirror much of the rest of society.
Specifically about using deadly force in self-defense.
It is staggering how few gun owners and carriers have read their state's self defense laws. Let me lay down a few bullet points on self defense.
1. Read your state's laws and know their specific language.
2. Know that the specific language was chosen purposefully.
3. The words feel, felt, and feelings don't appear in any state's law that I know of. The word fear appears in very few. Reasonable belief and reasonably believe appear in all of them that I have read. There's an important reason for that.
4. If you ever use deadly force in self defense it is going to suck in countless ways. You really do want to avoid it as much as you can. It can be expensive.
5. When you use deadly force, you need to know that your definition of reasonable no longer matters. Law enforcement and jurors get to decide what is reasonable from that point forward.
6. Your social media postings WILL become known. Lot's of keyboard bravado here and elsewhere on the worldwide web. If your day comes, you'll get to explain to the court how it was harmless, idle chest thumping all 207 times you did it on the net, and not an indication of your true mindset.
7. Using deadly force is not a casual undertaking.
Post up your state's self-defense laws if you wish. Louisiana's are worded somewhat oddly.
8. Who has prosecutorial jurisdiction? (In other words, do you live in a conservative/constitutional area, or a liberal schidthole that has a Soros DA? )
9. What color are you? What color is the person/persons you had to use deadly force against? Beyond that, if you are the same color, were the ones shot or dead a card carrying member of BLM or Antifa, or otherwise liberal...?
I was a Police Officer in the 14th largest city in the US for 33 years. I always knew what the state of Ohio laws said about self defense. I was bound by Oath and Duty to get involved in crimes committed in my presence, even when off duty. Now that I'm retired, and seeing the political climate in this country, I have to put the blinders on unless it's something really serious (Active shooter etc). I was just talking to my wife about a local Deputy who was just indicted for 2 counts of murder for an on duty shooting while working on a task force. I've really had to re-evaluate my ideas on using my concealed handgun. I will never allow some miscreant to harm me or my family because of the fear of arrest and prison. I still like to think that I'm Col headed enough to quickly evaluate a situation and act accordingly. I have always supported a citizen's right to carry and defend themselves or their family.
Ron
It is a shift of gears for sure. Going from 33 years of having a duty to involve yourself in dangerous situations to an environment where involving yourself in dangerous situation can bring on a legal hell, takes a decided mindset shift.
Specifically about using deadly force in self-defense.
It is staggering how few gun owners and carriers have read their state's self defense laws. Let me lay down a few bullet points on self defense.
1. Read your state's laws and know their specific language.
2. Know that the specific language was chosen purposefully.
3. The words feel, felt, and feelings don't appear in any state's law that I know of. The word fear appears in very few. Reasonable belief and reasonably believe appear in all of them that I have read. There's an important reason for that.
4. If you ever use deadly force in self defense it is going to suck in countless ways. You really do want to avoid it as much as you can. It can be expensive.
5. When you use deadly force, you need to know that your definition of reasonable no longer matters. Law enforcement and jurors get to decide what is reasonable from that point forward.
6. Your social media postings WILL become known. Lot's of keyboard bravado here and elsewhere on the worldwide web. If your day comes, you'll get to explain to the court how it was harmless, idle chest thumping all 207 times you did it on the net, and not an indication of your true mindset.
7. Using deadly force is not a casual undertaking.
Post up your state's self-defense laws if you wish. Louisiana's are worded somewhat oddly.
8. Who has prosecutorial jurisdiction? (In other words, do you live in a conservative/constitutional area, or a liberal schidthole that has a Soros DA? )
9. What color are you? What color is the person/persons you had to use deadly force against? Beyond that, if you are the same color, were the ones shot or dead a card carrying member of BLM or Antifa, or otherwise liberal...?
You know Barry, that is certainly an unfortunate evolving reality.
you should check out Andrew Banca. I don't know if he still is or not but he was giving his book away during the Rittenhouse trial if you paid for shipping. So many people responded it crashed his website
He has a statement
Carry A Gun So You're Hard To Kill
Know The Law So You're Hard To Convict
yea he is trying to sell stuff but he is all over the internet giving advice
There was a time when you could reliably count on the DA treating you fairly and in good standing when involved in a self-defense shooting. Those days went out the door in the last century.
Now, regardless of the circumstances, you are the criminal and must move mountains to prove you're innocent. Criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens today.
W.S.1977 § 6-2-602 § 6-2-602. Use of force in self defense; no duty to retreat Effective: July 1, 2018 Currentness
(a) The use of defensive force whether actual or threatened, is reasonable when it is the defensive force that a reasonable person in like circumstances would judge necessary to prevent an injury or loss, and no more, including deadly force if necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily injury to the person employing the deadly force or to another person. As used in this subsection, “necessary to prevent” includes a necessity that arises from an honest belief that the danger exists whether the danger is real or apparent.
(b) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury to himself or another when using defensive force, including deadly force if:
(i) The intruder against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, another’s home or habitation or, if that intruder had removed or was attempting to remove another against his will from his home or habitation; and
(ii) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring.
(c) The presumption set forth in subsection (b) of this section does not apply if:
(i) The person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be in or is a lawful resident of the home or habitation, such as an owner, lessee or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person;
(ii) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(iii) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer or employee of the Wyoming department of corrections who enters or attempts to enter another’s home or habitation in the performance of his official duties.
(d) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter another’s home or habitation is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(e) A person who is attacked in any place where the person is lawfully present shall not have a duty to retreat before using reasonable defensive force pursuant to subsection (a) of this section provided that he is not the initial aggressor and is not engaged in illegal activity.
(f) A person who uses reasonable defensive force as defined by subsection (a) of this section shall not be criminally prosecuted for that use of reasonable defensive force.
(g) As used in this section:
(i) “Habitation” means any structure which is designed or adapted for overnight accommodation, including, but not limited to, buildings, modular units, trailers, campers and tents, but does not include the inmate housing area of a jail, state penal institution or other secure facility under contract with the department of corrections to house inmates;
(ii) “Home” means any occupied residential dwelling place other than the inmate housing area of a jail, state penal institution or other secure facility under contract with the department of corrections to house inmates;
(iii) “Deadly force” means force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.
(Note that the common law still applies to the extent that the above statute does not apply to the situation. See W.S.1977 § 6-2-601) The Wyoming civil statutes:
W.S.1977 § 6-1-204 § 6-1-204. Immunity from civil action for justifiable use of force; attorney fees Effective: July 1, 2018 Currentness
(a) Except as provided by W.S. 6-1-103(a), a person who uses reasonable defensive force pursuant to W.S. 6-2-602 is immune from civil action for the use of the force.
(b) In a civil action filed against a person related to the person’s use of defensive force, the person may file a motion with the court asserting that the person used reasonable defensive force under W.S. 6-2-602. Upon the filing of the motion the court shall hold a hearing prior to trial and shall grant the person’s motion if he proves by a preponderance of the evidence that he used reasonable defensive force under W.S. 6-2-602.
(c) A court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for any loss of income and all other expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action arising from the person’s use of reasonable defensive force pursuant to W.S. 6-2-602 if the court finds that the defendant is immune from civil action under subsection (a) of this section.
W.S.1977 § 6-1-103 § 6-1-103. Civil recovery for criminal act; conviction as evidence in civil suit Currentness
(a) Nothing in this act prevents a party whose person or property is injured by a criminal act from recovering full damages.
(b) No record of a conviction, unless it was obtained by confession in open court, shall be used as evidence in an action brought to recover damages.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
First off, I hope to go to my grave a fat, old, and happy man, having to never use a weapon in self defense of myself or a loved one.
Having said that, I do have a policy with U.S. Law Shield in case the above does not happen. I have taken a few classes in the last several months about what the laws in TN are.
One thing I took from one of the classes (taught by a Pro 2nd amendment lawyer) was "If you can avoid a shooting, you should". I took that to heart.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
