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Campfire Ranger
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They didnt use deadly force until the suspected thief tried to disarm one of them.
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Campfire Regular
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As I understand it Burglary.
1. he has a criminal record of past theft
2. he has a history of attempted burglary in the area and this is documented
3. he was seen trespassing in a dwelling, which even under construction, still applies to at a minimum second degree burglary
4. You can be arrested for burglary even if you didn't steal anything if it is believed you had intent,. which had been established with his criminal record and past complaints.
if you argue they didn't have immediate knowledge of a felony in that case, they had immediate knowledge of past felonies, which the escape applies in the citizen's arrest. That's why Georgia expedited changing the law afterwards.
If you are going to involve yourself in making citizens arrests, you really should brush up on the law. https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2014/title-16/chapter-7/article-1/section-16-7-1I'm not sure where anything I said was wrong based on your link, secondly I'm going by what other lawyers are saying, Please be specific as to where you think I am wrong in my example Let's connect some dots. The old GA citizens arrest law only allowed them to detain him if he had committed a felony. The GA law I posted shows that burglary only rises to the felony level IF ...without authority and with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein, he or she enters or remains within an occupied, unoccupied, or vacant dwelling house of another... Let's focus on the "intent to commit a felony or theft" therein." He did not commit a theft. So for them to legally hold him, they would have had to, through some factual means, establish his intent. They obviously could not have possibly known his intent. you seem to be focused on the actual theft part and leaving out intent. I've already explained intent - he has a criminal background of theft, he has been accused of theft in the area prior that day. The crime of burglary occurs as soon as the defendant unlawfully enters or remains in the structure with the intent to commit a theft or some other crime, even if the intended crime or theft never occurs. Say a person sneaks into a home, but before he can take anything, the homeowner returns and the person flees. Despite not stealing anything, the person still committed the crime of burglary. If the theft or other crime is completed, additional charges can be filed. Intent to commit a crime can also be formed after unlawfully entering the premises. (Dillard v. State, 753 S.E.2d 772 (Ga. App. 2013).), the challenge here is criminal trespass versus burglary. If he didn't intend to steal, then he committed a misdemeanor. But that puts the onus on the citizen to determine intent, which can be based on circumstantial evidence and their belief a felony occurred. The reason I said he was guilty of at least second degree burglary is because of the questioning of whether a home under construction is actually a dwelling. Under Georgia law A person commits second-degree burglary by entering or remaining in any building, structure, railroad car, watercraft, or aircraft (that is not a dwelling) with intent to commit a felony or theft.I don't think the issue in this case is whether he committed a felony worthy of a citizens arrest. According to people in the neighborhood, he committed multiples of them in the past. The questions are, (1) did the McMichaels have first hand knowledge of - which they have video evidence of him entering a home, and 2, were they allowed to detain him for a felony committed days earlier, which according to the intent of the law when it was created, they did. Actually, there was no theft the day before. No burglaries had been reported in the neighborhood for almost 2 months prior to him being killed. His criminal background for theft was shoplifting a tv back in 2017 from walmart. Numerous people were caught on video entering the house, not just Aubry. There were couples and kids caught on camera also. The only people videoed taking anything from the residence were boys from the neighborhood. If he is guilty of criminal trespass or burglary then so is everyone else that walked through that house. Its actually quite common for people to come in off the street and walk through a house under construction. Also, what in a house under construction would he have taken? If you are going to steal tools then you need a vehicle to haul them away in. What did they think he stole from a house under construction that he could fit in his shorts? Was he so well endowed that they saw something swinging in his shorts and they thought it might be a hammer? Tools had been left at the residence with a camera pointing at them. They were obviously trying to catch someone stealing. No one leaves their tools out like that unless they are begging for them to be stolen. Ask anyone who works on houses.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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My guess is if a cop stops you for something and you yry to take his gun youre gonna get popped.
We have seen a certain group do this kinda thing when being arrested.
Over and over.
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If he didn't intend to steal, then he committed a misdemeanor. But that puts the onus on the citizen to determine intent,
The onus was on the McMichaels to establish intent if they were going to effect a citizens arrest. They didn't. They couldn't have. That's why the should not have tried to detain Arbery and that's why they were found guilty of false imprisonment. based on what other lawyers have said, they absolutely could based on the evidence and past activities. He was a known thief. They could reasonably suspect he had committed a burglary. I'll leave it at that. Deadly force is not an option when you are arresting someone for theft. I haven't touched on the self defense, only the justification for a citizens arrest
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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As I understand it Burglary.
1. he has a criminal record of past theft
2. he has a history of attempted burglary in the area and this is documented
3. he was seen trespassing in a dwelling, which even under construction, still applies to at a minimum second degree burglary
4. You can be arrested for burglary even if you didn't steal anything if it is believed you had intent,. which had been established with his criminal record and past complaints.
if you argue they didn't have immediate knowledge of a felony in that case, they had immediate knowledge of past felonies, which the escape applies in the citizen's arrest. That's why Georgia expedited changing the law afterwards.
If you are going to involve yourself in making citizens arrests, you really should brush up on the law. https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2014/title-16/chapter-7/article-1/section-16-7-1I'm not sure where anything I said was wrong based on your link, secondly I'm going by what other lawyers are saying, Please be specific as to where you think I am wrong in my example Let's connect some dots. The old GA citizens arrest law only allowed them to detain him if he had committed a felony. The GA law I posted shows that burglary only rises to the felony level IF ...without authority and with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein, he or she enters or remains within an occupied, unoccupied, or vacant dwelling house of another... Let's focus on the "intent to commit a felony or theft" therein." He did not commit a theft. So for them to legally hold him, they would have had to, through some factual means, establish his intent. They obviously could not have possibly known his intent. you seem to be focused on the actual theft part and leaving out intent. I've already explained intent - he has a criminal background of theft, he has been accused of theft in the area prior that day. The crime of burglary occurs as soon as the defendant unlawfully enters or remains in the structure with the intent to commit a theft or some other crime, even if the intended crime or theft never occurs. Say a person sneaks into a home, but before he can take anything, the homeowner returns and the person flees. Despite not stealing anything, the person still committed the crime of burglary. If the theft or other crime is completed, additional charges can be filed. Intent to commit a crime can also be formed after unlawfully entering the premises. (Dillard v. State, 753 S.E.2d 772 (Ga. App. 2013).), the challenge here is criminal trespass versus burglary. If he didn't intend to steal, then he committed a misdemeanor. But that puts the onus on the citizen to determine intent, which can be based on circumstantial evidence and their belief a felony occurred. The reason I said he was guilty of at least second degree burglary is because of the questioning of whether a home under construction is actually a dwelling. Under Georgia law A person commits second-degree burglary by entering or remaining in any building, structure, railroad car, watercraft, or aircraft (that is not a dwelling) with intent to commit a felony or theft.I don't think the issue in this case is whether he committed a felony worthy of a citizens arrest. According to people in the neighborhood, he committed multiples of them in the past. The questions are, (1) did the McMichaels have first hand knowledge of - which they have video evidence of him entering a home, and 2, were they allowed to detain him for a felony committed days earlier, which according to the intent of the law when it was created, they did. Actually, there was no theft the day before. No burglaries had been reported in the neighborhood for almost 2 months prior to him being killed. His criminal background for theft was shoplifting a tv back in 2017 from walmart. Numerous people were caught on video entering the house, not just Aubry. There were couples and kids caught on camera also. The only people videoed taking anything from the residence were boys from the neighborhood. If he is guilty of criminal trespass or burglary then so is everyone else that walked through that house. Its actually quite common for people to come in off the street and walk through a house under construction. Also, what in a house under construction would he have taken? If you are going to steal tools then you need a vehicle to haul them away in. What did they think he stole from a house under construction that he could fit in his shorts? Was he so well endowed that they saw something swinging in his shorts and they thought it might be a hammer? Tools had been left at the residence with a camera pointing at them. They were obviously trying to catch someone stealing. No one leaves their tools out like that unless they are begging for them to be stolen. Ask anyone who works on houses. I'm not sure where I cited a theft the day before, or even 11 days before. Its about a suspected felony occurring they were aware of. As for other people going in and out of houses, below may be the difference as to why Arbery was singled out On August 21, 2018 Arbery was observed, and body camera recorded, in a neighbor’s backyard looking into her car windows. When police approached Arbery afterwards to give him a trespass warning he falsely claimed that he had simply been “running in the street.” He then became aggressive and confrontational with the officers, threatening that he would “whip the officer’s ass” if they didn’t leave him alone. He was not arrested. On October 23, 2018 Arbery was confronted trespassing inside a mobile home by local Deputies. Arbery fled when approached by police. When later caught, he falsely claimed that he “was just out running.” In 2019 and 2020 Arbery was repeatedly seen attempting to enter neighboring homes through their windows. Whenever confronted in the act, Arbery would “take off running.” Also in 2019 and 2020, local convenience store owners began to refer to Arbery as “the jogger” for his repeated conduct of running up in front of convenience stores, going through stretching motions, and then entering the convenience store to seize items and then running quickly back out to flee with the stolen merchandise.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I wonder how many here have ever used a firearm in self-defense? What relevance would that have? The subject is self-defense. Specifically deadly force. Oh.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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My guess is if a cop stops you for something and you yry to take his gun youre gonna get popped.
We have seen a certain group do this kinda thing when being arrested.
Over and over.
A cop is not executing a citizen's arrest.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I haven't touched on the self defense, only the justification for a citizens arrest
Deadly force is not an option when arresting somebody for theft. A citizen performing a citizen's arrest should not be brandishing a firearm, or any other implement that would be reasonably perceived as deadly. Write it down.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
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I haven't touched on the self defense, only the justification for a citizens arrest
Deadly force is not an option when arresting somebody for theft. A citizen performing a citizen's arrest should not be brandishing a firearm, or any other implement that would be reasonably perceived as deadly. Write it down. who is arguing that point? maybe you should point it out to them instead
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I haven't touched on the self defense, only the justification for a citizens arrest
Deadly force is not an option when arresting somebody for theft. A citizen performing a citizen's arrest should not be brandishing a firearm, or any other implement that would be reasonably perceived as deadly. Write it down. who is arguing that point? maybe you should point it out to them instead I am not debating any aspect of this subject. I'm simply stating what everyone that carries, needs to know. Write it down.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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They didnt use deadly force until the suspected thief tried to disarm one of them. Do not brandish firearms or any other implement that could be reasonably perceived as deadly if you are going to affect a citizen's arrest.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
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I haven't touched on the self defense, only the justification for a citizens arrest
Deadly force is not an option when arresting somebody for theft. A citizen performing a citizen's arrest should not be brandishing a firearm, or any other implement that would be reasonably perceived as deadly. Write it down. who is arguing that point? maybe you should point it out to them instead I am not debating any aspect of this subject. I'm simply stating what everyone that carries, needs to know. Write it down. on that I would agree with you
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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There is a lot of bad info on this thread which,as usual, obscures the good info.
Job#1 Defend you and yours against imminent jeopardy of death or great bodily injury. All else is bullschidt and outside of the realm of expertise of most. Few people actually bother to learn the relevant law or how it relates to real life. Few practice w/their weapon of choice let alone the arts of awareness, avoidance and de escalation.
As much as it hurts to say, the best advice on this thread is that provided by Deflave.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Not chasing down a suspect. Not attempting a "citizen's arrest."
You are just a citizen carrying a long arm or wearing a sidearm legally.
Define "brandishing" and define accepted legal carry methods in your area.
Sidearm in secured holster?
Longarm at sling arms?
Longarm at port arms?
Longarm at shoulder arms?
When the situation changes to a person attempting to disarm you, are you ready to defend yourself regardless?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I wonder how many here have ever used a firearm in self-defense? What relevance would that have? The subject is self-defense. Specifically deadly force. Oh. You're welcome.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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there is an episode of Gunsmoke
In the episode, a peace loving man was just living his life with his wife out on their ranch. A man and his son decided they wanted the land and since he wouldn't sell it to them, they began harassing him to the point it escalated to them shooting up his house trying to chase him off.
Dillon and Chester tried to get him to pick up a gun and fight back but he wouldn't.
At some point it got so bad they shot up his home and almost killed his wife and his wife was frustrated with him that he wouldn't fight back to protect their home.
A few days later he told her it was time for him to finally get around to putting up her clothes line he'd been promising her for so long. He told her he was going to put it up a little high so that when she washed sheets they wouldn't touch the ground.
Wouldn't you know it, the father and son came by that night to shoot up the place again and they broke both their necks on that new clothes line that was neck high on a horse.
All kinds of things could have happened to Arbery , a man running around breaking into construction sites.
of course the risk is it could happen to a kid too. You'd really have to put some thought into that clothesline.
Last edited by KFWA; 12/03/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Situational awareness, situational awareness, situational awareness
Funny the campfire lawyers on here ( have never been a situation involving deadly force) quoting and interpreting subsections of states' deadly force laws. Sure you remember what subsection to remember when the time comes. lol
Were you in fear for your life or a family member's life?
Where were you and what were you doing when presented with the threat? Arbury comes to mind
Could you have reasonably retreated from the threat? Did you attempt to remove yourself from the threat? Why not?
Did you use deadly force after the threat was no longer present?
Was deadly force justified?
Officer I was in fear for my life ( family member's life). I want to speak with my attorney. No, I want to speak with my attorney first. Thank you
pretty basic. Take a local good quality self defense, liability course if you don't understand ( 1/2 the Members on here) . Have good liability insurance. Go to range at least 4 to 5 times a year. if possible shoot in low light conditions. Run sprints, do push ups before you shoot. Try it
Of course local politics will also affect use of deadly force regardless of the laws. If they are not constitutionally friendly move to a region where they are . Typically lower crime areas.
ribka, pretty much sums up a good plan. 🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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there is an episode of Gunsmoke...
Awesome reference... There is also this one Cat Video on YouTube that is germane... I'll see if I can find it. BRB
If you are not actively engaging EVERY enemy you encounter... you are allowing another to fight for you... and that is cowardice... plain and simple.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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there is an episode of Gunsmoke...
Awesome reference... There is also this one Cat Video on YouTube that is germane... I'll see if I can find it. BRB you do that, take your time
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Are you fully vaccinated? LOL
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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