Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Great stuff, whether .50 sabot properly fitted for .451", .452" or .458" bullets, it is all good.
The .45-caliber CVA Paramount Is different in needing a bore-size bullet without sabot.
Maybe a PC painted, grease-grooved bullet with grease lube over paint could substitute for paper patch,
either way with diameter about bore size, and soft alloy,
to bump up to groove diameter.
The CVA borrows a lot from the forerunner Savage and Remington for smokeless ML loading yet harkens back to
the Creedmoor era muzzleloaders,
regarding bullet and bore & groove diameters.

The .45-cal Power Belt ELR has been sold as a 280- or 285-grainer.
Actual weight I checked was closer to 291 grains, plastic-tipped and plastic skirted, like a badminton birdie.
Advertised BC was supposed to be .452, CVA testing said BC was .333 for G1.

Any who, 98.0 gr by weight of the BH209 in my rifle produced 2180 fps at 5-yards with the 291-gr Power Skirt bullet.
For a 5-shot string, at 41*F all 5 shots measured 2180 fps.

Sir Ron,

Woodleigh Hydro's are CNC machined in another facility so they should be still available.
Will keep you and everyone else updated as I know more...

Russ

I did locate the right barrel 50 yard target---- IIRC, the left barrel target had 2 in 1 + a flyer.. Now a collectors item as DR going to gun maker this weekend to have chambers extended to 45-90 and to be regulated with 45-90. More fun soon as I can use Pressure Trace II on the 90 ammo in my 1886. Also will be fun to see how the 45-70 regulates after 90 regulation.
May add "&.45-90 Express" to barrel stamping.

Filled a tag today. In one shoulder out the other and dead in between. Big flat nosed cast. Perfect.

Sir Russ brings hope.

Sir Charles,
Yep, those .45-bores have been tops at long range shooting since the muzzle-loaders of the 1850s.
The BPCR single loaders continued that trend and added the hunting feather to the .45-bore warbonnet,
and the .45-bore DR sealed the deal with development of the Nitro Express DGR.
Finally, the .458 Winchester Magnum came along to do it all, even better.

Sir Dennis,
Dead right there ?
Was that a high shoulder shot that shocked the spine,
or was it just a collapse due to deer not being able to run on hind legs only ?
They do not go far with both shoulders broken.

Remember, if the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to same length and same pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott, the Lott loses.
Both with 24" pressure barrels by same maker, tested in Hornady ballistics lab:
The SAAMI .458 Lott at 62,500 PSI and 3.600" COL with a 500-grain Hornady bullet resulted in 2250 fps MV.
The SAAMI .458 WM at 60,000 PSI and 3.340" COL with same 500-grain Hornady bullet resulted in 2200 fps MV.
Load the same .458 WM to 3.600" COL and 62,500 PSI and you get +2300 fps MV, and you call it the .458 WM+.
You cannot do that with the .458 Lott unless it is a wildcat like Jack Lott built, with a longer throat.
Why not just wildcat the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum by simply loading it to longer COL ?
It already has the proper throat.

I am taking the CVA Paramount to THE GUNSMITH tomorrow to have him use his pin gages to measure bore diameter.
One internet pilgrim said he was told by CVA that it was supposed to be 0.449" bore diameter.
The pilgrim says his bore measured 0.452".
I measured my groove diameter at 0.462".
Either paper-patched or grease-grooved bullet ought to be about 0.001" to 0.002" bigger than bore, for a bit of resistance
on ramming the bullet down the barrel.
I will gitterdun, with 530- to 550-gr PP bullet,
but until then will be using the "291-gr/.45-cal ELR Power Skirt" bullet with BC of 0.333 at 2192 fps MV,
for the upcoming late ML deer season.
The .458 WinMag is tricky to pass off as a muzzleloader.

HANDLOADER December 2021 No. 335
The "WILDCAT CARTRIDGES" column by Layne Simpson, pp. 22-25: ".450 Watts"

Simpson claims to have dug deep in researching this cartridge.
Besides my thinking that the title should be ".450 Watts Magnum"
as the cartridge was copyrighted in 1950,
I was appalled by a factual error in the second sentence of the article.
Simpson claimed that James Watts became a resident of Alaska in 1936.
Nope.
It was 1938.
This does not inspire confidence in Layne Simpson's deep dive into the .450 Watts Magnum.

Based on the Cal Pappas book interview of James Watts,
James A. Watts rode a Santa Fe Trailways bus from Kansas to Seattle, WA in mid 1938,
then took steerage on a ship to Seward, AK and then another boat to Valdez, AK.
In the summer of 1938 he hiked to Fairbanks and spent about a year working there.
In the summer of 1939 he hiked from Fairbanks back to Valdez.
Along the way, in summer 1939, his .45 Long Colt was swiped off his waist by the claws of a charging grizzly he had just shot with a .375 H&H M70.

The .45 LC and the .375 H&H conceived a baby in 1939, with James Watts eventually delivering it.
It was a 10-year gestation. The first functioning .450 Watts Magnum was on an FN Mauser. Born in year 1949.

Watts had been writing Winchester with his suggestion for necking the .375 H&H up to .450-bore since the end of WW II.
Surely his first rejection letter came no later than 1946.
He wrote again to Winchester in 1947, and the second time they did not even answer him.

I was below him essentially ground level standing in a hole in a cutbank and he was on a rise. Maybe 70 yards so pretty good angle. In at top of heart level and out mid shoulder. Ran 40 yards. Good blood trail.

Sir Dennis, makes sense, good as it gets, like shooting deer from a foxhole, you ol' fox.
I might consider digging a pit blind for deer.

Interesting new powder noted in article in HANDLOADER December 2021 No. 335 pp. 4-7,
Propellant Profiles department by Randy Bimson
"ALLIANT RELODER TS 15.5"

TS-15.5 is a Temperature Stable (TS) powder incorporating "TZ technology" developed by Bofors of Sweden.
It contains a proprietary de-coppering agent too.
Burn rate is intermediate to RL-15 and RL-16, about like VARGET's speed.
It is an extruded powder with "short cut" granules that should meter well.
It is a double-base powder with low nitroglycerine content.

What is not to like? Alliant is trying to please.

It is excellent with heavy bullets in the .223 Rem (80-grainer at 2795 fps) and .308 WCF (200-grainer at 2535 fps)
both in 24" barrels.

All the great powders developed lately for the .223 Rem are great in the .458 WinMag,
easily producing 500-grainers at 2150 with no compression and sub 60,000 psi,
just like the .458 WinMag could do back in 1955 with HiVel #2 powder, according to H. P. White Laboratory testing.

My CVA Paramount was measured.
Bore admits a .452" pin but not a .453" pin. Groove diameter is 0.462", 1:22" twist.
Might be called a .452" bore diameter just like the internet pilgrim said.
A Parker bullet of .453" diameter makes sense for that,
and any sizing down would come from the ramrod.
Soft lead, grease-grooved or paper-patched, sized to .454" might work too.
That would be a good substitute for trying to pass off the .458 WinMag as a muzzleloader.
But, hey, if a Sharps 1874 can be Gemmer-ized by hanging a ramrod under the barrel,
so could a Winchester Model 70.
All aspects of riflery may eventually be accomplished with a .458 WinMag.

Well I did have a plan. Passed on this deer first day at 15 yards with his chest and throat in the scope of my 260. We are having some warm weather and it just didn’t feel right to pull the trigger. Second day the Whitworth begged and I listened. Was back in the same general spot but this deer having been fooled day one, was I think looking for me before he approach his bedding area. So he was clearing his approach angles with his nose. I was sitting in that hole looking down on the creek East trying to intercept him earlier in his route. He was circling around in the tall grass prairie and walked right up behind me, putting his feet at my head level. When my scent hit his nose he blew, whirled and ran west. I counted 3 and stood and turned centered him n the scope. Because he really had not seen me, just full load smelled me, when he turned south towards the bedding are he stopped and looked towards where he had located me. Since the old 458wm was hungry and the night would be cold enough to hang, I fed her by pressing the trigger. Thump, he took two jumps then hit the top wire on his third jump and I saw him for a few more jumps before the topography obscured him. I thought I heard him fall but my ears are not what hey used to be. Gathered my gear and headed to where he jumped the fence. He blew blood heavily when he jumped and down slope 30-40 yards more he was piled up.
Coming back with my Jet sled to drag him out with, I came across a gut shot die that some other hunters had wounded the night before. The landowner had told me the story that morning so i knew immediately what was up when the poor thing tried to take a step. She was about 175 yards away and I did what needed done and let the landowner know where the hunters could find her. I shot her deliberately high shoulder and she was drt.
I aggravated an old groin / leg adductor injury with the pressure of the pulling rope which I foolishly had put at waist level and am laid up on ice and ibuprofen. Lots of memories and good stories but age and scar tissue wins in the end it seems.
Best regards,

Sir Dennis,
Buy a donkey for the details.
I suffer from old connective tissue too.
I packed mine out in 50-pound chunks on my back with an old freighter pack I used in the late 1980s in Alaska.
I could handle 100 pounds back then, but to quote the raven, nevermore.

Still working on the idea of Gemmerizing a Winchester M70 .458 WinMag:
Ramrod hung under barrel with brass fittings.
Patch box inletted into buttstock.
New priming system for muzzleloader: F-215 primer in an empty .458 WM is chambered before powder and bullet are loaded from the muzzle.
Powder can be real BP or any BP substitute for 100% fill of the primed case.
The off-the-shelf Parker 300-gr/.451" aerodynamic wonder bullet would be a perfect fit in the .450"-bore/ .458"- to .459"-groove
of the SAAMI .458 WinMag with Blackhorn 209, ~ 100 grains by weight.
For real BP, better use paper patch or grease-groove bullets from 480-gr to 550-gr, properly sized as previously mentioned.

Sir Ron

A question about the relationship, if any, between H4895 and AA5744 in producing the same MV in a .458 Win. Since I've purchased some heavyweights (600g, 550g and 500g) as mentioned in yesterday's blog, my intent is to push them out the barrel of my #1 Ruger about 1850 fps for the 500, 1800 fps for the 550g and 1750 fps for the 600g (That's 100 fps faster than initially thought). I will likely start with about 64 grains of H4895 in each. What would be an approximate equivalent in results from AA5744?

My thinking is to give a fair try of each powder for accuracy. Of course, 5744 would result in less recoil.

To put a face on this: I'm planning a spring bear hunt over bait in the newly logged out area (That will be somewhat detailed in my next blog). Range will be somewhere between 65 to 85 yards.

Thanks for any suggestions.

We've had real winter conditions here for the past couple of weeks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,

That is an excellent idea.
From my previous testing with 400-gr to 600-gr bullets using H4895,
I think your 64.0-gr charge will be perfect with your 500-gr to 600-gr jacketed bullets
if you use the same seating depth for all of them, and make that 0.350".
That is with or without extra cannelure, as long as you use your LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE.

Assuming the following Bullet Overall Lengths:

600-gr Barnes Original RNSN: 1.550"
550-gr Woodleigh Weldcore RNSN: 1.414"
500-gr Hornady DGX FNSN: 1.386"

The COLs you will need are like this for 2.500" brass length:

600-gr Barnes: 3.700"
550-gr Woodleigh: 3.564"
500-gr Hornady: 3.536"

The old "first generation" Hornady RNSN 500-grainer seated to 0.350" depth and 3.500" COL at 52*F:

64.0 grains of H4895 in my Ruger No. 1 with 24" factory barrel gave 1842 fps MV (corrected).
80.0 grains gave 2301 fps MV (my max).
61.0 grains gave 1746 fps MV (my min).

The Barnes Original 600-grainer seated to 0.350" depth and 3.700" COL at 48*F:

65.0 grains of H4895 in same Ruger No. 1 with 24" barrel gave 1810 fps MV (corrected) my minimum charge tried.
74.0 grains of H4895 gave 2051 fps MV, my maximum charge tried.

Same seating depth for all loads is important.
Loading long helps unconfuse QuickLOAD and it is more accurate in predictions for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
QuickLOAD makes no allowances for throat effects.

Here is what QuickLOAD says about 64.0 grains of H4895 compared to my reality above, same load specifics:

500-gr Hornady DGX >>> 1881 fps >>> 36,842 psi >>> 98.7% Prop. Burnt >>> 89% L.R./Filling

600-gr Barnes RNSN >>> 1795 fps >>> 42,827 psi >>> 100% Prop. Burnt >>> 89% L.R./Filling

Now, finally, try AA-5744 at 48.0 grains charge:

500-gr Hornady DGX >>> 1885 fps >>> 44,493 psi >>> 100% Prop. Burnt >>> 69% L.R./Filling

600-gr Barnes RNSN >>> 1759 fps >>> 49,544 psi >>> 100% Prop. Burnt >>> 69% L.R./Filling

Close enough for horseshoes and handgrenades.

For the 550-gr Woodleigh, just use same 64.0 gr of H4895 or 48.0 grains of AA-5744 and interpolate.
Should be pretty close to
1850 fps with 500-grainer
1800 fps with 550-grainer
1750 fps with 600-grainer.

And in honor of Sir Bob's hearing protection use while hunting,
a portrait of The Magnificent Seven Special Operators, all in muffs, except Teddy who must be wearing plugs:



Thomas Jefferson, Ronald Reagan, George Washington, Donald Trump, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and JFK
according to artist Jon McNaughton.

I have tried to find 5744 powder to no avail, so I did my homework and found Shooters World Buffalo Rifle powder (Lovex D060-01). It is supposed to be identical to the earlier version of 5744 made by Lovex. It is relatively cheap still when you can find it. I scored a few pounds of it recently, and will give it a try. Some of you with 5744 data in the .458 could get some and compare.

Sir Ron;

Thank you very, very much for this! It's a confirmation. My intention is to load 64 grs of H4895 in each, and now 48 grs of 5744 and compare for accuracy. And all will be seated to the same depth.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bevan,
That Buffalo Rifle by Lovex sounds good.
I have always found AA-5744 at my local emporium.
AA-5744 and H4895 are both great for reduced loads.
AA-5744 is great for max loads with 250-gr bullets and
H4895 is great for max loads with 400-gr to 750-gr bullets !
The mighty .458 WinMag could subsist well on those two powders only,
but it is so exceedingly versatile with so many bullets and powders of all types !
More than I could shake a stick at.