Home Forums Birds & Dogs Turkey Hunting TSS facts verses fiction

I got curious so I asked this question on Apex facebook page.

This is from their facebook page.


My question to

Apex Ammunition on their Facebook site.


"I hear all the claims....lets hear the facts. What's the actual weight of a TSS size 9 or 10 pellet ?"


Apex Ammunition's reply to me...Quote

"9's weigh 1.2grs. 9.5's weigh 1gr.

9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's".


My reply to Apex...

"A lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains....a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains....both substantially more weight than the smaller TSS pellet. Energy is figured by computing weight and velocity. There is no way a #9 TSS pellet weighing a third of a #4 lead can have more energy than a lead #4 shot moving at the same velocity.....fact is a lead #7 has more energy than a TSS #9 size shot moving at equal velocity".

I was quickly shown the door.....

A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.

My question to you, have you tried TSS #9? In either a 12 or 20? I have, in a 20, for the first time last year. The performance is undeniable. The range, the penetration, the patterns, the stuff works. Doesn't mean nothing else works, just means there's another tool available. And held in hand, no scale, a 3" 20 gauge 1-1/2oz #9 TSS is noticeably heavier than a 3" 20 gauge 1-1/4oz #5 Winchester LongbeardXR. More than the 1/4oz difference in payload. I know that's not scientific, just an observation. The performance of TSS in a 20 gauge has kept my 10 and 12 gauges in the safe when I go out.

I shot the hevi shot mixed load for a couple years I don't want to pick small pellets out of my turkey meat.

The 2 toms I shot last year had zero pellets in any of the meat areas. Both at +/- 40 yards. Their heads and necks were a completely different story. Not saying that can't happen, just didn't on the 2 last year. This year could be a different story. I too listed to, and read, guys accounts of TSS shot. Sounded like guys and their 6.5CM's. But I finally tried it and was very impressed by it. You still have to do what you have to do to kill a turkey, that doesn't change.

I've never tried heavy shot nor TSS. Winchester XX #5 has always worked well for me. I shot the last of my XX and ended up buying several boxes of Longbeard XR in 3" and 3.5". The stuff patterns exceptionally well. So far I've patterned it in my Winchester SX4 with a XF choke, Browning A5 with a Kicks turkey choke, and my Browning Maxus II with a full choke. I'm getting super dense patterns at 30 yards and very good kill patterns to 50. As well as XX has performed, and as promising as XR looks, I have no desire to try TSS. The cost alone is something like 3 to 5Xs the cost of Longbread XR, which is already expensive enough. $50-80 for 5 TSS 3.5" #7 shells (depending on the source) versus $27 for 10 XR 3.5" #5 shells. That's insane.

I have shot turkeys with lead #5, Hevi #6, Hevi 7's and TSS #9. All will kill turkeys, pick what you like and rock on.

The price of TSS is freaking insane. I shoot Longbeards in #4 and #5 and have killed birds at 40+ several times. I used to get on a turkey hunting forum that acted like it was a mortal sin to kill birds at more than 40 yards. But, most of the pricks on there loved TSS. WTF! I posted on there that I can kill birds at 40 yards easy with Longbeards. Why do I need TSS. Nobody responded at all to my post. I really wanted them to.

You're nuts roverboy! Lol! Like talkin about crossbows in an archery forum! My opinion has always been, use whatever you want and can afford. Up to you whether it works or not.

Steel is less dense than lead, so it is a given steel pellets need to be larger for the same effect..
TSS is more dense than lead, so conversely TSS pellets can be smaller for the same effect.

And before you were shown the door...I'm sure they mentioned density.

ABOUT TUNGSTEN
Lead has a density of 11.34g/cc giving it more inertia and energy at impact than steel shot which comes in at 7.86g/cc. ... Alternative non-toxic alloys have been created with densities as high as 13-15 g/cc. None, however, have ever come close to our TSS, which has the ultimate density of 18.1 g/cc.

Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ...

This might be a good time to add this:

Interesting. That chart has "Steel 4" through a Full or Extra Full choke. Most choke tube makers explicitly warn not to shoot steel through a full choke or tighter tube.

What I take is you get almost the same penetration with a 9 TSS (1.67) vs a lead 4 (1.72) and you most likely get more hits on target due to the increased number of shot in the TSS. The cumulative effect being you hit the target with more energy. Reason being the increased density of TSS.

Compare TSS 9's to lead 5's or 6's and the advantage becomes greater. TSS 9's and Lead 4's seem to be equal pellet vs pellet. However TSS 9's are superior to lead 5's and 6's...pellet to pellet.

Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...

I like 267% more pellets. More pellets = more dead.

I don't claim to know all the math and Rick did a fine job explaining it but I know TSS works. That is not to say that lead, Hevi shot, Heavy weight or whatever else will not work, but to say TSS will not kill a turkey cleanly and quickly is just wrong.

Excellent analogy....Well done...

I'd like to try it, and probably will eventually, even given its extraordinarily high price, and given the fact that I now have enough XR to last me several seasons.

Apex 9’s in a 28 gauge stone Pheasants. Although the same can be said for Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 5’s and a center point.