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John,

For some reason, I can still remember an old American Hunter article you wrote in the 90’s about elk cartridges.

I think you said something to the effect of “the 30-06 is probably the best everyman’s elk cartridge.”

Just wondering, with all of the advances in bullets, is that still your opinion?


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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The .30-06 is still a good choice, but smaller cartridges work very well with the right bullets. Have seen elk killed neatly with chest shots in cartridges from the .22-250 up.

Must admit that I get a little weary of the constant elk-cartridge debates here and elsewhere. I grew up in Montana when the majority of elk hunters used the .30-06, partly because there were so many "affordable" military-surplus 1903 Springfields were still available. Nosler Partitions were the only controlled-expansion bullet available back then, but had to be handloaded--unless you owned a Weatherby, since they started putting Partitions in the factory loads in the early 1960s.

Consequently most hunters used 180-grain .30-06 factory loads, and they worked--partly because back then Remington still made the original, heavy-sidewall Core-Lokts. Did know one guy who used 220-grain bullets, but he hunted heavy timber.


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I guess maybe I should ask another way:

If you were writing that article today, would you change anything?


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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I'd have to haul it out of my piles of magazines and read it again--if a copy is still around. Wrote it about 4-5 computers ago, so it would be impossible to find otherwise. All I can say without doing that is there's a much wider variety of very fine elk bullets for the .30-06 today.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
The .30-06 is still a good choice, but smaller cartridges work very well with the right bullets. Have seen elk killed neatly with chest shots in cartridges from the .22-250 up.

Must admit that I get a little weary of the constant elk-cartridge debates here and elsewhere. I grew up in Montana when the majority of elk hunters used the .30-06, partly because there were so many "affordable" military-surplus 1903 Springfields were still available. Nosler Partitions were the only controlled-expansion bullet available back then, but had to be handloaded--unless you owned a Weatherby, since they started putting Partitions in the factory loads in the early 1960s.

Consequently most hunters used 180-grain .30-06 factory loads, and they worked--partly because back then Remington still made the original, heavy-sidewall Core-Lokts. Did know one guy who used 220-grain bullets, but he hunted heavy timber.


As I've patiently tried to explain to my brother and his circle of elk hunting devotees for at least the last 10 years when they respond "You use WHAT on elk?" eek

I tell them to start first at the bullet and then work backwards towards how it's delivered.


It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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I have never shot a a elk but if I were to hunt them my Rem 700, 3006 is the gun/ caliber I would use. I see so many debates and endless time taken up on this subject. So, here's my 2 cents. 3006 would be my choice, Decision made, with that part done I would practice a lot, shooting positions I would use in the field, prone sitting, standing kneeling. find an acceptably accurate load / with an decent bullet and know my drops out to 400 yards. I would hunt hard and not worry about equipment and what the other guys are shooting. Last I would use all of that extra time addressing the many other issues in my life that are in need of thought and possibly resolution!

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Didn’t Elmer once recommend nothing less than a 375 for elk?
Before modern bullets and powders
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_09_Big_Game_Bullets.pdf

Last edited by HeavyLoad; 01/03/22.
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I have taken elk with .308 and .338 and both worked fine.


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Originally Posted by HeavyLoad
Didn’t Elmer once recommend nothing less than a 375 for elk?
Before modern bullets and powders
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_09_Big_Game_Bullets.pdf


Your link don't work. Elmer died in 1984 long before most of today's premium wonder bullets. If he can be faulted it would from his lack of use with Nosler Partitions. His famous quote on minimums was 250 grains .338 dia at 2500 fps or more. No body offered premium bullets in loaded ammo way back then except Weatherby in Weatherby ammo . 98% of the public just bought what they could get where ammo was for sale. Criticisms based on 20/20 hindsight aren't worth repeating. ..mb


" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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The link is working for me.
Believe me my above post was more about history then modern times.
It’s a good story by Elmer and elk. Hope you can get it to work.

Last edited by HeavyLoad; 01/03/22.
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Got it to work. I think I have that issue of Guns and Ammo. You need to find a copy of "Hell, I was there" it's hard to put down..mb


" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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I read that book a long time ago. And I had both of Elmer’s Gun Notes books. I sold them, wish I wouldn’t have now.
Would like to read them again. I forgot most of what I read by now. That’s how I remember Elmer’s story on the 375. I had to google it since I didn’t have any of the books anymore.

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I think the evolution of a lot of equipment I. E. 4 wheelers, electric saws all’s, tires, gps, rangefinders, clothing etc etc plus the expansion of elk herds into farmland had a little more do due with caliber selection ; as compared to bullet construction improvements.

Talking to real old timers about hunting the mountains of Idaho is really interesting.

Last edited by Angus1895; 01/03/22.

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Originally Posted by Magnum_Bob
Originally Posted by HeavyLoad
Didn’t Elmer once recommend nothing less than a 375 for elk?
Before modern bullets and powders
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1982_09_Big_Game_Bullets.pdf


Your link don't work. Elmer died in 1984 long before most of today's premium wonder bullets. If he can be faulted it would from his lack of use with Nosler Partitions. His famous quote on minimums was 250 grains .338 dia at 2500 fps or more. No body offered premium bullets in loaded ammo way back then except Weatherby in Weatherby ammo . 98% of the public just bought what they could get where ammo was for sale. Criticisms based on 20/20 hindsight aren't worth repeating. ..mb

And yet we still use cup core bullets on elk, and even more frail ones. But everyone else could do it but Elmer, or only Elmer could do it right, depends on how much you cared about his opinion.

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Elmer was very aware of Nosler Partitions, and mentioned them in his writings. Am sure that, like many gun writers back then, John Nosler was happy to supply him.

Believe I have read all his books, including some rare ones, often more than once, but could be mistaken.

There are two schools of thought on why Elmer kept insisting on using heavy, .33+ caliber bullets even for "big mule deer," long after Partitions appeared. One is that by then he knew some of his popularity was due to his bigger cartridge/bullet attitude. (Have also heard a claim from a couple of Idaho residents that he actually used the .30-06 with 180-grain Partitions for a lot of his big game hunting. But neither could claim personal knowledge of this. Instead it was "I heard somebody say....")

One thing I do know for sure is that Elmer would have been a LOT better off with 180 Partitions from a .30-06 than the 300-grain Kynoch bullets he used on his first safari, in his .333 OKH (his "light" rifle). He reported on the Kynochs in his book SAFARI, published by a friend and admirer. He used both soft-noses and solids--and the thin-jacketed soft-noses sometimes wouldn't even exit a Thompson gazelle, about as large as a big coyote. Consequently he used solids for most of the safari, which don't kill nearly as well as good expanding bullets. Sometimes elk-sized plains animals went a half-mile before falling. He then reported in his book that all African plains game is "as tough as an old gum boot," a myth that still circulates today, especially among Americans planning a plains-game safari, at least partly due to Elmer.

He could have saved himself a lot of trouble (and spouted less BS) if he'd used a .30-06 with 180 Partitions. I know this from having killed quite a bit of African plains game with that combination. Why didn't he, since Partitions has been around for a decade when he went on that safari?





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Stubborn, set in his old ways?

Last edited by HeavyLoad; 01/03/22.
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I always enjoyed reading Elmer.

In the above referenced Gun Notes, it seems that he based his post-war opinions on pre-war data. In 1982 he is citing hunts from 1917; using 1923 National Match ammo; or Western Tool and Copper Works bullets. Perhaps as JB suggested, he was capitalizing on his big bullet/cartridge reputation.

Our sport has benefited greatly from technology. Imagine today trying to discount the use of LRF, high quality optics, or modern hunting clothing based on what we used in 1960?

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I am still in favor of Elmer. He was one outstanding shot. He contributed greatly to the shooting world. He has his opinions and stuck too them. He did most of his hunting on his own. He didn't have his hunts paid for by a magazine. I admired him greatly. Not to say I agree with all that he said. But he was an outstanding gun man. I doubt we ever see his like again.


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Originally Posted by WyoCoyoteHunter
I am still in favor of Elmer. He was one outstanding shot. He contributed greatly to the shooting world. He has his opinions and stuck too them. He did most of his hunting on his own. He didn't have his hunts paid for by a magazine. I admired him greatly. Not to say I agree with all that he said. But he was an outstanding gun man. I doubt we ever see his like again.


I agree--up to a certain point--which is why I've owned all his books (have spent up to $300 on some older ones) and reread them a lot. But he did have some of his hunts paid for.,if not by magazines by outfitters who wanted him to publicize their operations--along with Guns & Ammo. His two African safaris were subsidized considerably, as were some other North American hunts later in his career. But he worked his ass off to get to that point, as have most gun/hunting writers.

He also experimented more with rifles (and shotguns and handguns) more than most hunting/gun writers of the day. He was the first I read who use a multiple-reticle scope both as an approximate rangefinder and long-range aiming point on big game.


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"The 30/06 is never a bad choice"------Who said that? He's still correct. Bob

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