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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?



You should know about absence of evidence by now. The nature of justification has been explained enough times. If there is no evidence for the existence of a Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc, there is no reason to be convinced that any version of God exists. There are as many versions of God as there are believers in God.



And the foregoing, of course, is complete nonsense. The lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus is no evidence whatsoever for the non-existence of an Supreme Intelligence that created the Universe. We know the Universe had a begnnning (which Genesis also happens to posit) and we know that natural selection cannot explain the origin of life (the origin of the coded information which is a condition precedent to biological replication). We know that natural selection cannot explain the diversity of life either for that matter (for a host of reasons). No one posits that "Zeus" is the intelligence existing outside of time and matter which brought into existence time and matter but they certainly do posit the exist of a responsible Supreme Intelligence (God) and the probability His existence is as reasonable, if nor more so, than the competing inference.


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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?



You should know about absence of evidence by now. The nature of justification has been explained enough times. If there is no evidence for the existence of a Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc, there is no reason to be convinced that any version of God exists. There are as many versions of God as there are believers in God.



And the foregoing, of course, is complete nonsense. The lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus is no evidence whatsoever for the non-existence of an Supreme Intelligence that created the Universe. We know the Universe had a begnnning (which Genesis also happens to posit) and we know that natural selection cannot explain the origin of life (the origin of the coded information which is a condition precedent to biological replication). We know that natural selection cannot explain the diversity of life either for that matter (for a host of reasons). No one posits that "Zeus" is the intelligence existing outside of time and matter which brought into existence time and matter but they certainly do posit the exist of a responsible Supreme Intelligence (God) and the probability His existence is as reasonable, if nor more so, than the competing inference.



Nope...name shifting from Zeus to "Supreme Intelligence" or "God" doesn't alter anything.

We have evidence for the existence of a Universe, but not a God. How the universe came to be (it may be cyclic) is assumed by some to be the work of God, which invokes an inexplicable element - God - as an explanation for something that we don't have an answer.

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Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?



You should know about absence of evidence by now. The nature of justification has been explained enough times. If there is no evidence for the existence of a Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc, there is no reason to be convinced that any version of God exists. There are as many versions of God as there are believers in God.



And the foregoing, of course, is complete nonsense. The lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus is no evidence whatsoever for the non-existence of an Supreme Intelligence that created the Universe. We know the Universe had a begnnning (which Genesis also happens to posit) and we know that natural selection cannot explain the origin of life (the origin of the coded information which is a condition precedent to biological replication). We know that natural selection cannot explain the diversity of life either for that matter (for a host of reasons). No one posits that "Zeus" is the intelligence existing outside of time and matter which brought into existence time and matter but they certainly do posit the exist of a responsible Supreme Intelligence (God) and the probability His existence is as reasonable, if nor more so, than the competing inference.

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Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?



Crayon drawings are clearly made by someone. The natural world works according to its own principles, nobody has to form stars, form planets, organize their orbits, geology....nobody blows the wind, makes the rain fall, grows the trees or the grass.....these are all natural processes. Physics, energy, chemistry, three billion years of microbes before multicellular organisms evolved, etc, etc....

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But, is Billy Graham still in Hell?


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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?



Crayon drawings are clearly made by someone. The natural world works according to its own principles, nobody has to form stars, form planets, organize their orbits, geology....nobody blows the wind, makes the rain fall, grows the trees or the grass.....these are all natural processes. Physics, energy, chemistry, three billion years of microbes before multicellular organisms evolved, etc, etc....
That's a gratuitous assertion.


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JAG is, because he's a lying POS and has other lying POS standing up for his lying. Thus he is a good Christian.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?



Crayon drawings are clearly made by someone. The natural world works according to its own principles, nobody has to form stars, form planets, organize their orbits, geology....nobody blows the wind, makes the rain fall, grows the trees or the grass.....these are all natural processes. Physics, energy, chemistry, three billion years of microbes before multicellular organisms evolved, etc, etc....



Your every assertion assumes as true that which must be proven true and which has not been proven true.... But you make one intelligent point: when we see drawings on a cave wall, we infer that they were made by an intelligent being, not random natural processes because our experience tells us that is the most likely explanation. Likewise, when we see the complex numeric code in DNA--a code far more complex than any computer code devised by the mind of man and when we see the unbelievable complexity of the simplest cell (a complexity Darwin could not even begin to fathom)---we also reason: what is the likely source of that complex coded information given that all of human experience tells us that complex coded information can only come from an intelligent source?

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh

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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh


If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence. wink

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Zeus and the God described from Genesis to Revelation certainly have nothing but extreme differences from given descriptions.
A simple crayon drawing of a five year old shows evidence of existence of the artist. An automobile likewise has a maker. Why is it when the mechanism is so much more complex that atheism dogma chooses to assign it to chaotic chance and laws of nature?



Crayon drawings are clearly made by someone. The natural world works according to its own principles, nobody has to form stars, form planets, organize their orbits, geology....nobody blows the wind, makes the rain fall, grows the trees or the grass.....these are all natural processes. Physics, energy, chemistry, three billion years of microbes before multicellular organisms evolved, etc, etc....
That's a gratuitous assertion.


Not in the least. It's supported by evidence from cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry, the fossil record, evolution....yet no sign of God.

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Originally Posted by Jim1611
If the one true God being banned from a nation is good I wonder when we'll start seeing the fruits of it improving our society? I always see a hint of that desire in any thread that comes up on here concerning God and the Bible. So if you have a desire to see even more of throwing God out of our nation please explain to me when we'll start seeing the good in this.


So 9 hours later and no takers on my question? I don't want to argue, I just want the facts so please explain them to me.

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The Fool Says in his heart, There Is No God - Ps 14:1
Bible is the only truth in the universe which does not change, if you noticed humanity and the environment changes, we change on daily basis, we change our minds on various things, governments change, human morality changes but God does not, therefore we can hold on to His word as an anchor in this ever changing and unstable world. we may not be able understand the works of God in creation, cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry even fossils, but consider this; how can something evolve from nothing. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. the heavens are much older than the earth and include the whole universe, the earth was created after angels who witnessed it - Job 38. It takes greater amount of faith to believe in evolution that something ignited when there was nothing, then to humbly believe that God is the Creator, Savior and the final Judge.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh


If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence. wink



This is hysterically funny! laugh John Gray---Oxford educated, published extensively, highly regarded, extreme critic of religion and other faith-based ideologies---but stupid. How do we know this? Because some anonymous, wholly uncredentialed poster (DBT) on some obscure gun forum says so! crazyThat's called argument by assertion and it's worthless. Read him and tell us, with logic and evidence, why he's wrong. Should be a piece of cake for you. He's only an Oxford Phd! laugh


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)

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Originally Posted by Jim1611
Originally Posted by Jim1611
If the one true God being banned from a nation is good I wonder when we'll start seeing the fruits of it improving our society? I always see a hint of that desire in any thread that comes up on here concerning God and the Bible. So if you have a desire to see even more of throwing God out of our nation please explain to me when we'll start seeing the good in this.


So 9 hours later and no takers on my question? I don't want to argue, I just want the facts so please explain them to me.


The answer is in and the evidence is overwhelming in your favor: the farther we move from Judeo-Christian monotheism and the parallel idea of a natural, non-sectarian moral order not of our choosing, but to which our behavior ought to conform, the worse the world and socieites become.


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Originally Posted by duke61
The Fool Says in his heart, There Is No God - Ps 14:1
Bible is the only truth in the universe which does not change, if you noticed humanity and the environment changes, we change on daily basis, we change our minds on various things, governments change, human morality changes but God does not, therefore we can hold on to His word as an anchor in this ever changing and unstable world. we may not be able understand the works of God in creation, cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry even fossils, but consider this; how can something evolve from nothing. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. the heavens are much older than the earth and include the whole universe, the earth was created after angels who witnessed it - Job 38. It takes greater amount of faith to believe in evolution that something ignited when there was nothing, then to humbly believe that God is the Creator, Savior and the final Judge.


Quoting verse doesn't prove the existence of God, calling people fools for not being convinced is just a rationale. Is someone a fool because they are not convinced in the existence of Allah or Brahman?

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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh


If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence. wink



This is hysterically funny! laugh John Gray---Oxford educated, published extensively, highly regarded, extreme critic of religion and other faith-based ideologies---but stupid. How do we know this? Because some anonymous, wholly uncredentialed poster (DBT) on some obscure gun forum says so! crazyThat's called argument by assertion and it's worthless. Read him and tell us, with logic and evidence, why he's wrong. Should be a piece of cake for you. He's only an Oxford Phd! laugh


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)


Argument from authority is a fallacy. I can quote any number of Academics who disagree with John Gray.

There are plenty of academic articles on justification of belief, Stanford, etc.

You need to widen your reading, not cherry pick philosophers you agree with.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh


If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence. wink



This is hysterically funny! laugh John Gray---Oxford educated, published extensively, highly regarded, extreme critic of religion and other faith-based ideologies---but stupid. How do we know this? Because some anonymous, wholly uncredentialed poster (DBT) on some obscure gun forum says so! crazyThat's called argument by assertion and it's worthless. Read him and tell us, with logic and evidence, why he's wrong. Should be a piece of cake for you. He's only an Oxford Phd! laugh


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)


Argument from authority is a fallacy. I can quote any number of Academics who disagree with John Gray.

There are plenty of academic articles on justification of belief, Stanford, etc.

You need to widen your reading, not cherry pick philosophers you agree with.


I don't agree with John Gray, but he is an atheist who does not agree with you. You're correct: the fact that Gray is an Oxford Phd doesn't mean he's correct. On the other hand, it does point to the absurdity of some anonymous internet cowboy blithely dismissing him with the wave of a hand and the unsupported claim Gray doesn't know what he's talking about. Prove it!


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Originally Posted by Jim1611
Originally Posted by Jim1611
If the one true God being banned from a nation is good I wonder when we'll start seeing the fruits of it improving our society? I always see a hint of that desire in any thread that comes up on here concerning God and the Bible. So if you have a desire to see even more of throwing God out of our nation please explain to me when we'll start seeing the good in this.


So 9 hours later and no takers on my question? I don't want to argue, I just want the facts so please explain them to me.



How many cultures and societies have believed in gods, a creator, supernatural entities, etc, yet were violent? History has many examples.

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Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Atheism is not simply disbelief in God. Atheism is most definitely a belief system, just as Christianity is a belief system. Atheism embraces its own tenets, just as Christianity embraces its own tenets.


If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour. An absence of conviction is certainly not a religion. We can lack conviction in any number of things, politics, ideologies, etc....Which doesn't make our lack of conviction a religion.

Your claim is patently absurd.

Are you religious because you are not convinced in the reality of Allah or Brahman?



If it is patently absurd, then you might consult the arguments of the eminent British philosopher John Gray. He makes the same point: atheism is essentially a faith-based metaphysical belief system. It's simply the negative side of the religion coin and it's not even particularly intellectually defensible. A more honest position (intellectually and factually) would be agnosticism. You're very bit as religiously dogmatic as Happy and Jag, you just can't admit it! laugh


If that is the case, John Gray hasn't got a clue, not about justification, evidence, logic or reason.

Think about it, for example, Muslims make claims about the existence of Allah, without evidence.....what reason do we have to believe in Allah? None. There is no reason to be convinced in the reality of Allah (the Muslim version of God).

If you do not accept the existence of Allah without evidence for His existence, how is that your faith or religion? You must be an extremely religious person given all the things you are not convinced of because they have no evidence. wink



This is hysterically funny! laugh John Gray---Oxford educated, published extensively, highly regarded, extreme critic of religion and other faith-based ideologies---but stupid. How do we know this? Because some anonymous, wholly uncredentialed poster (DBT) on some obscure gun forum says so! crazyThat's called argument by assertion and it's worthless. Read him and tell us, with logic and evidence, why he's wrong. Should be a piece of cake for you. He's only an Oxford Phd! laugh


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)


OK, I've had time to look through John Grays work. It seems the problem is not so much with what Gray says, but what you think he says.

The problem lies in your interpretation of Gray. Gray proposes that some atheists place faith in humanism rather than God, not that a lack of conviction is necessarily an example of faith.

It is you who needs to work on your comprehension.

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