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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by DBT
How many cultures and societies have believed in gods, a creator, supernatural entities, etc, yet were violent? History has many examples.
You are assuming that violence corresponds with immorality. You are also assuming that an atheist society would be different.


Across the board as populations become less religion measures of well being improve.
If we look at per capita income, the more atheist a country the higher per capita income after controlling for human capital, resources, education, geography etc.
The order of prosperity is:

Atheist
Jewish
Christian
Hindu/Buddhist
Muslim
Folk Religions.

The less fanatical the people, the more their core belief system aligns with reality the higher per capita income. Of course it doesn't stop there, same goes for crime, teen pregnancy rate, numbers of abortions etc.
If you want a well research primer on the subject which quotes the relevant studies, I suggest Ryan Cragun's "What you Don't know about Religion {but should}".


Last edited by antelope_sniper; 01/04/22.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Springcove
The show me proof argument is always humerus. Some say God doesn’t exist and prove that he does. I would say God does exist and prove that he doesn’t. It all comes down to faith. You either have it or you don’t and it really is that simple. You either believe or you don’t. This also includes Jesus and the resurrection. It’s an argument that just goes in circles.
I am of the belief there IS a supernatural creator.

But the challenge to prove that God does not exist comes up against the rule that you cannot prove a negative.

Like how do I prove there are no Ivory Bill wood peckers.

How do I prove there is no extraterrestrial life out there.

And that's why the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?
Let's see the evidence of a god.
So you clearly can’t provide the “evidence” that you asserted above.

And instead, you crawfished.



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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Springcove
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Beaver10
Originally Posted by Springcove
The show me proof argument is always humerus. Some say God doesn’t exist and prove that he does. I would say God does exist and prove that he doesn’t. It all comes down to faith. You either have it or you don’t and it really is that simple. You either believe or you don’t. This also includes Jesus and the resurrection. It’s an argument that just goes in circles.





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Faith is not a pathway to truth.



If that’s what you believe then that’s what you believe. It makes no difference to me. We all have to choose our own path.

"Want" has nothing to do with it. Having "Faith" there's 10 billion dollars in my brokerage account wouldn't make it true.
A billion Muslim hold a faith different than yours. Do that make yours false? If not, how would your faith make their false?



I don’t see anywhere that I used the word “want”. I just posted about the circular argument of proof where God is concerned. I’m not posting to change anyones mind and they certainly won’t change mine. My belief is just that it’s mine.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?
Let's see the evidence of a god.
So you clearly can’t provide the “evidence” that you asserted above.

And instead, you crawfished.



shocker




Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced. You can speculate as much as you wish.

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Originally Posted by DBT
Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced.
So when an atheist asserts they have “evidence to the contrary”…exactly like was done above…but they can’t provide that evidence…exactly like was done above…there is no reason to be convinced of their assertion. Got it.


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The Apostle Paul spent 30 years of his life traveling all around the Mediterranean rim spreading the Gospel, and he was arrested and beaten and imprisoned and stoned but he kept doing what he was called to do. And he established ekklesias in port cities all along the way as he preached the Gospel that God had done something in the world and Jesus being raised from the dead was proof of it.

And then in his early to mid 60’s he was arrested one more time and taken to Rome, where he was imprisoned when Nero was the emperor. And then one morning they marched him out, and that would be his last morning on earth. Now imagine if we could’ve gone back from nowadays and accompanied him from his cell to his execution right outside the city.

And we could tell him that his efforts to evangelize and spread the Gospel beyond the Holy Land worked. We could tell him that this city that is adorned with icons and statues of pagan gods will one day be adorned with icons and statues of Jesus. And that on the tops of buildings all across this city there will be crosses, and they’re not gonna be crosses that represent Roman crucifixion, they’re gonna represent and remind people of one single crucifixion, the crucifixion of Jesus. And that over there where Nero’s circus is, where he persecutes Christians and allows wild animals to tear them apart, where he crucifies Christians, where he impales them on stakes and puts tar in their hair and lights them on fire to illuminate his gardens…there will be a magnificent building to commemorate his friend Peter, and it will be the most beautiful building on the planet.

And we could tell him that one day, millions of people will come to this city from all over the world, and they won’t ask where Caesar Augustus was buried or if they could visit Tiberius’ palace, they’re gonna ask their tour guides to show them where he was imprisoned. And one day there will be no Roman Empire, but there will be Christian Churches in cities and countries throughout the world. And all of those letters that he wrote and handed to trusted friends hoping they made it to their destinations in Ephesus and Thessalonica and Christians in Rome and other places, one day his letters and teachings would be translated into 1200 different languages and distributed all over the world.

And one day, once a year, people will mention Caesar Augustus…but not because he was the mighty emperor of Rome…he’ll simply be a footnote in the story of the birth of Jesus. And we could tell Paul, before he died, he should know that one day parents will name their children Peter and Paul, and they’ll name their dogs Nero and Caesar. Could he even imagine that this city that was responsible for crucifying Jesus would one day be the capital of Christianity…? Could he imagine that the Roman Forum would one day be ruins, a tourist attraction…? Could he imagine that the Coliseum would be adorned with crosses dedicated to the Christian martyrs who died there during that period of persecution…?


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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by DBT
Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced.
So when an atheist asserts they have “evidence to the contrary”…exactly like was done above…but they can’t provide that evidence…exactly like was done above…there is no reason to be convinced of their assertion. Got it.


Evidence to the contrary is the evidence we have for natural evolution over special creation.


If the universe is self-forming - stars, planets, galaxies, etc - and self-sustaining. This is clearly not special creation as described in the bible. If life emerged three billion years ago, only microbes for three billion years before multicellular organisms evolved, this evidence paints a picture of natural evolution rather than special creation as described in the bible.

The evidence supports natural evolution over special creation. Then of course, we have the absence of evidence for the existence of a Creator. So not only is faith a belief held in the absence of evidence, but at times in the face of evidence to the contrary.

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That’s just using semantics as a fallback position while ignoring the real assertion that was made.



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He missed every part of it because he cherry picks his scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:3 In the last days there will be men who will not put up with the healthful teachings but they will be turned aside to false stories looking for teachers to tickle there ears

How many people made it thru the flood in Noah's time?


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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by DBT
Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced.
So when an atheist asserts they have “evidence to the contrary”…exactly like was done above…but they can’t provide that evidence…exactly like was done above…there is no reason to be convinced of their assertion. Got it.
Evidence to the contrary is the evidence we have for natural evolution over special creation.
What about the “evidence to the contrary” that God does exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus did exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus was resurrected…? And what about the “evidence to the contrary” that natural evolution was the method used for special creation…?


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Originally Posted by antlers
Believing there is no evidence for God is not proof that there is no God.

Atheists believe there is no God, but there is no evidence that there is no God; therefore atheists believe, by faith, that there is no God. Just like others believe, by faith, that there is a God.

There is no proof of God’s nonexistence.

There is no proof of Jesus’ nonexistence.

There is no proof that Jesus wasn’t resurrected.

But what atheists…or anybody else…chooses to believe, that’s more than OK with me.


So you want a world where people have to prove a negative rather than proving the positive. So if I were to accuse you of being a child molester and give zero evidence to support that accusation it would still be up to you to provide evidence that you were not a child molester. And if you can't provide hard evidence that disproves my claim then it means I'm right and you are indeed a child molester.

That the way you want the world to proceed? That the standard you want to implement? Because I think that's madness.

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Originally Posted by antlers
That’s just using semantics as a fallback position while ignoring the real assertion that was made.



shocker


It's not semantics. Astronomy and Astrophysics is the study of the Universe on a large scale, we have the fossil record, we have genetics, comparative anatomy, comparative embryology, molecular biology....all providing evidence that supports natural evolution not special creation.

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Quote
What about the “evidence to the contrary” that God does exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus did exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus was resurrected…? And what about the “evidence to the contrary” that natural evolution was the method used for special creation…?


And where is that evidence? Oh and here's a helpful hint before you reply. Fairytales made up by goat herders 2000 years ago who believed in witches; thought the earth was flat; and that the sun orbited the earth is not actual evidence. They're just stories. And every culture and religion has a different set of them.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by DBT
Absence of evidence. Without evidence, there is no reason to be convinced.
So when an atheist asserts they have “evidence to the contrary”…exactly like was done above…but they can’t provide that evidence…exactly like was done above…there is no reason to be convinced of their assertion. Got it.
Evidence to the contrary is the evidence we have for natural evolution over special creation.
What about the “evidence to the contrary” that God does exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus did exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus was resurrected…? And what about the “evidence to the contrary” that natural evolution was the method used for special creation…?


Absence of evidence where evidence should be found is evidence of absence.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?
Let's see the evidence of a god.
So you clearly can’t provide the “evidence” that you asserted above.

And instead, you crawfished.



shocker




Creation and the flood of the bible are proved false by evidence that verifies explanation otherwise. If you choose to not accept these parts of the bible then that's a good sign of start of rational thought. Fact remains that you still can't prove existance of a god.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Tarquin
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Believer's mindsets are clouded by delusion - delusion being defined as persistent false belief that does not change despite evidence to the contrary.…
Let’s see this “evidence” that God doesn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus didn’t exist…? Let’s see this “evidence” that Jesus wasn’t resurrected…?



You should know about absence of evidence by now. The nature of justification has been explained enough times. If there is no evidence for the existence of a Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, etc, there is no reason to be convinced that any version of God exists. There are as many versions of God as there are believers in God.



And the foregoing, of course, is complete nonsense. The lack of evidence for the existence of Zeus is no evidence whatsoever for the non-existence of an Supreme Intelligence that created the Universe. We know the Universe had a begnnning (which Genesis also happens to posit) and we know that natural selection cannot explain the origin of life (the origin of the coded information which is a condition precedent to biological replication). We know that natural selection cannot explain the diversity of life either for that matter (for a host of reasons). No one posits that "Zeus" is the intelligence existing outside of time and matter which brought into existence time and matter but they certainly do posit the exist of a responsible Supreme Intelligence (God) and the probability His existence is as reasonable, if nor more so, than the competing inference.


You might want to educate yourself better on the facts of evolution.

And just remember there are no facts of god. Lack of our ability to explain something doesn't mean a god did it - that's just an absurd statement. May as well have been aliens or magic, with equal credibility.



It doesn't matter how many times the fallacies are pointed out, they just keep being trotted out as if nothing was said...


Yeah, it's a bizarre mindset of really wanting something to be true but clearly isn't. Facts don't seem to matter.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by Hastings


I am of the belief there IS a supernatural creator.



The creator represented by Christianity in particular is morally and ethically corrupt.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by Willto
So you want a world where people have to prove a negative rather than proving the positive. So if I were to accuse you of being a child molester and give zero evidence to support that accusation it would still be up to you to provide evidence that you were not a child molester. And if you can't provide hard evidence that disproves my claim then it means I'm right and you are indeed a child molester.
People don’t “have to prove” anything. You can believe whatever it is that you choose to believe, and I’m OK with it. And I can choose to believe whatever it is that I choose to believe, even if you’re not OK with it.
Originally Posted by Willto
That the way you want the world to proceed? That the standard you want to implement? Because I think that's madness.
The world can proceed with you believing whatever it is that you choose to believe, and I’m OK with it. The world can proceed with me believing whatever it is that I choose to believe, even if you’re not OK with it.


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Originally Posted by antlers
What about the “evidence to the contrary” that God does exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus did exist…? What about the “evidence to the contrary” that Jesus was resurrected…? And what about the “evidence to the contrary” that natural evolution was the method used for special creation…?
Originally Posted by Willto
And where is that evidence?
You tell me…? An atheist here made the assertion that he had “evidence to the contrary” regarding what believer’s believed. And when asked for that evidence, he crawfished.
Originally Posted by Willto
Oh and here's a helpful hint before you reply. Fairytales made up by goat herders 2000 years ago who believed in witches; thought the earth was flat; and that the sun orbited the earth is not actual evidence. They're just stories. And every culture and religion has a different set of them.
It’s OK with me that you choose to believe that. I don’t agree with your beliefs…at all…but I have zero problem with you believing them.


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