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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
You may not understand John 14:17….. God comes and abides with and within the believer. When that happens, there is no doubt.

The witness within of the Holy Spirit is powerful.


Well there are 4000 recognized religions on this planet and all of them have members who believe just as powerfully as you that they are on the one true path. Yep, no doubts in their mind at all.

And yet simple deductive logic tells you that 3999 of them have to be wrong. So much for the accuracy of powerful feelings.


Tf49


Well, you are focused on my personal belief and how you think it is not different from someone else's belief. You are not getting the "why" of my belief.

OK.... I'll just repost a response to one who was claiming that there is "no evidence" and leave you all to it.....





".......Well, there is evidence for the existence of God all around us. You either reject it or don’t see it.

Also, as it has been posted before, when the Creator comes to abide “within” the believer, that believer indeed has “proof.”

But, you apparently don’t see and you apparently “don’t have.”

Still, you comment above piques some interest. You state “…. the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive “claim.”….

I think this is nothing but word bafflegab. You may believe that Christians are making a “claim,” but I see it as Christians providing a testimony or witness of our experience.

But, you choose you words carefully and there is one interesting way to look at your post.

Should you be judged….. by a God you claim has not proved His existence….. this God, at your judgment may “play the video tape” of your life and show you literally dozens of times He made His presence known to you…. Only to have you somehow reject the witness.

No one can “argue” you into belief….. Only God can “get you to flip.” I wonder how many times the Spirit has knocked on your door, but you refused to answer the knock. You will say that that has never happened. I would expect that God will show you He knocked dozens of times when the tape rolls."


If you were born and raised a muslim you'd be using the same arguement for allah. How do you know your god isn't actually allah? Did he clearly identify himself to you?

By the way, why would god be keeping video footage? Does it say this in the bible? Wouldn't both parties already know what they've done, or is god forgetfull these days? Sounds like some fresh bafflegab to me.



Hmm…. You and willto don’t seem to get allegory or even metaphor…… I guess I am not surprised.


You missed the first part of my response.

Your allegorical metaphorical statement was nonsense so I responded with more speculation.




No, I did not miss the first part of your response. I chose not to respond to it because it is just complete nonsense. See Brandolini’s Law.



No it's not. The key point being there is one thing all religions have in common - they can't prove their gods exist. Pick one that suits you best or just go with whatever you were born in to.

Or have a good think about it and realise the truth of the matter is that there is no truth in it at all. Many people have lost the baggage and admit to being better off for it. We've evolved to have a brain that can perform critical thinking - why adopt a belief system that says this is wrong and that punishes you for using it?

Brandolini's law is a falsehood. The onus is always to prove a claim, not to try and disprove a false allegation. An unproved claim doesn't warrant consideration.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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So let me get this straight, intelligent life and all of creation can come from nothing, but a divine awareness could not…?


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Originally Posted by antlers
So let me get this straight, intelligent life and all of creation can come from nothing, but a divine awareness could not…?



So let me get your position straight. The universe could not have come from nothing on it's own but an omnipotent all powerful God could just spring into existence from nothing on it's own. See how that can come right back at you?

Unlike you I don't pretend to know all the mysteries of the origin of the universe. I DON'T KNOW is a perfect acceptable answer to some questions. But not knowing something should not cause you to sit down and make up a fairytale to fill in the gaps of your knowledge. And that is basically what religions are


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Originally Posted by antlers
So let me get this straight, intelligent life and all of creation can come from nothing, but a divine awareness could not…?


Life didn't come from nothing. There is no proof of a divine awareness - it's a man made idea to fill the gaps but has no factual basis ie we don't know, therefore god/aliens/magic.

I repeat the statement - science doesn't know everything, religion knows nothing.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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If you choose to believe that first life emerged from no life with no help, then so be it. If you choose to believe that you go from lifeless matter to the digital elegance of DNA without a Creator, then so be it.


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Originally Posted by antlers
So let me get this straight, intelligent life and all of creation can come from nothing, but a divine awareness could not…?


Why do you say 'from nothing" if we don't know whether time had a beginning or not? The Universe may be cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something not yet imagined.

Nor did life emerge 'from nothing.' We have a planet, water, chemistry, energy from the sun, etc, etc....which is something, not nothing.

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Originally Posted by antlers
If you choose to believe that first life emerged from no life with no help, then so be it. If you choose to believe that you go from lifeless matter to the digital elegance of DNA without a Creator, then so be it.


We consider the evidence, not "choose to believe." Your "choose to believe" is a rationale.

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Originally Posted by antlers
If you choose to believe that first life emerged from no life with no help, then so be it. If you choose to believe that you go from lifeless matter to the digital elegance of DNA without a Creator, then so be it.


You are the one choosing to believe a completely unsubstatiated story. I do not choose to believe anything. I examine actual evidence as it becomes available which shapes my opinion. I follow the facts. I don't try to manipulate the facts to fit a story I want to believe.

The scientific method of figuring out the true nature of things has given us technology that has taken us from living in caves wielding stone tipped spears to landing spaceships on distant planets. Not to mention all the advancements in the medical world that help preserve and lengthen our lives.

Religion? Well it's kept much of the earths population mired in ignorance to the point that we are still killing each other in many areas over who is praying to the correct invisible friend.

Last edited by Willto; 01/07/22.
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Then post up that “actual evidence” that shapes your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Post up those “facts” that you follow that leads you to your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Show us how a creator-less creation is ‘substantiated.’


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Again; we don't know, therefore God, is not an explanation.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Then post up that “actual evidence” that shapes your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Post up those “facts” that you follow that leads you to your opinion that you’ve made clear on this thread regarding this matter.



So you want me to copy and paste 100 years of scientific research into this thread. And do it in such a way that even your simple science denying ass can understand it. I can post some links to good reads for you if you like. And oh yeah. While I am getting ready to post them please reciprocate by posting the hard factual evidence of your specific god's existence.

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No. I simply want you to provide the “actual evidence” and “facts” that you said existed, specifically the ones that substantiate that everything came into being without a creator.

And while you’re at it, go ahead and show where I ever said I had “hard factual evidence” of God’s existence.


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Start here. Read these then I will suggest a few more.

The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution by Richard Dawkins

Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne

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Now where is your evidence for God?

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I haven’t opened this thread until today. Mostly because any thread with more than 2-3 pages turns into a chit show.

Yawn, the usual Richard Craneums show up …

But the answer would have to be …obviously not.

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Saved from what exactly? Religion is hocus pocus if you really think about it. I don't hate on anyone that believes in such things, but don't expect me to drink the same koolaid.

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Originally Posted by antlers
No. I simply want you to provide the “actual evidence” and “facts” that you said existed, specifically the ones that substantiate that everything came into being without a creator.


I have not said any evidence exists for how the universe first came into being. Did you miss the part about I DON'T KNOW being the way to answer some questions. Now you explain why not knowing the answer to that question makes it okay to invent a God with no evidence whatsoever to support the claim. You always ask questions but never answer any. Wonder why?

Last edited by Willto; 01/07/22.
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Now you’re crawfishin’.




shocker


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Originally Posted by Willto
Originally Posted by antlers
Then post up that “actual evidence” that shapes your opinion that first life emerged from no life with no help, and that it’s gone from lifeless matter to the complexity of DNA without a Creator. Post up those “facts” that you follow that leads you to your opinion that you’ve made clear on this thread regarding this matter.



So you want me to copy and paste 100 years of scientific research into this thread. And do it in such a way that even your simple science denying ass can understand it. I can post some links to good reads for you if you like. And oh yeah. While I am getting ready to post them please reciprocate by posting the hard factual evidence of your specific god's existence.


It's no use - he repeatedly, flippantly dismisses the evidence, and likes the gaps so he can claim "therefore god" even without a thread of supporting evidence for his case. An honest person sees the gaps and says "I don't know". This delusion is common to believers. I really can't understand why people can be so dishonest with themselves - they otherwise appear normal in the more mundane tasks of daily life. You know, they will stop at red traffic lights and avoid running with sissors - their faith doesn't extend beyond common sense in these instances at least.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by antlers
Now you’re crawfishin’.




shocker



Now you are just proving yourself a liar. Not crawfishing on a thing. And what evidence can you provide for your claims? Does the word ZERO ring a bell? I don't know the exact way the universe originated. No one does. That means you too. There exists plenty of good research on how it has developed since if you care to read it. None of which involves inventing a fairytale story.

Last edited by Willto; 01/07/22.
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