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Originally Posted by wabigoon
I posted that, did I not.


If a God exists and wants to interact with His creation, why stay hidden from it? According to the bible, God was not so shy in biblical times. Yet we are meant to take the word of ancient people? People who believed all sorts of things that are plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
God did not originate. That is why he is called God.


Which one of the 4000 gods is that? What evidence do you have to narrow it down to a specific god of one religion?

And why is god excluded from the need to have a start or a creation? Just because it shields you from having to explain how god came into being from nothing? LOL! That's convenient. Believers just yank these rules out of their ass and try to force you to accept them as absolute. They are not.


God is not a scientific concept. If something physical or metaphysical requires a Creator then by definition we are not talking about the Creator. Very simple logic. You you define something as requiring a Creator then you are by definition not talking about God. YYou are talking about something created.

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Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
God did not originate. That is why he is called God.


Which one of the 4000 gods is that? What evidence do you have to narrow it down to a specific god of one religion?

And why is god excluded from the need to have a start or a creation? Just because it shields you from having to explain how god came into being from nothing? LOL! That's convenient. Believers just yank these rules out of their ass and try to force you to accept them as absolute. They are not.


God is not a scientific concept. If something physical or metaphysical requires a Creator then by definition we are not talking about the Creator. Very simple logic. You you define something as requiring a Creator then you are by definition not talking about God. YYou are talking about something created.





Man created god/s


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by wabigoon
I posted that, did I not.


If a God exists and wants to interact with His creation, why stay hidden from it? According to the bible, God was not so shy in biblical times. Yet we are meant to take the word of ancient people? People who believed all sorts of things that are plain wrong.

Christians don't claim He is hidden. You do.

Atheists always explain away any and all divine manifestations as hallucinations or lies. They always do. They do today. They would do it tomorrow. The supernatural is by definition not repeatable. It is not subject to the empirical method. Atheists are trapped in a fishbowl. Falsely believing that the only truth is that which the scientific method can prove.

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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
God did not originate. That is why he is called God.


Which one of the 4000 gods is that? What evidence do you have to narrow it down to a specific god of one religion?

And why is god excluded from the need to have a start or a creation? Just because it shields you from having to explain how god came into being from nothing? LOL! That's convenient. Believers just yank these rules out of their ass and try to force you to accept them as absolute. They are not.


God is not a scientific concept. If something physical or metaphysical requires a Creator then by definition we are not talking about the Creator. Very simple logic. You you define something as requiring a Creator then you are by definition not talking about God. YYou are talking about something created.





Man created god/s

Yes, of course. But God created man.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by NVhntr
Happy Camper has said some pretty nasty things about the Catholic Church here Violator22. But he's being nice because he's really hard up for anyone who will listen to him presently.
Happy Camper will come around to the truth that is the Catholic Church when he figures out why Jesus, with the ability to read hearts, made Judas an Apostle.

To fulfill prophecy.

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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
The atheist belief that the universe was created from nothing(ex nihilo) is a faith based claim.


You obviously haven't read this thread as this has already been addressed several times. The non religious participants here have made no such claim about the origin of the universe. We have consistently said that we don't know how it originally came to be. Neither do you. But you are the ones claiming to KNOW how it started despite having no evidence to support that claim.

A materialist rejects God. Science has already settled the creation of the Universe as an event. Therefore the only possible option is for a materialist is to have faith in ex nihilo, ergo my statement is absolutely correct. Atheism is faith based. Just because empty words about "not knowing" are said makes no difference. If a materialist truly did not know then they would allow for God as an option. They don't.

You have obviously not read what I posted i other threads. I have shown clear evidence for the creation of the universe in the past via a supernatural means.

"Kalam Cosmological Argument" is a start, but I'm sure it will be ignored because it is not convenient for faith filled atheists to consider seriously.


When did science settle Creation by a Creator as an event?

Science settled the creation event. Science cannot settle how the event occurred since science before the event is not possible.

Metaphysics offers logical sound arguments for that event having been initiated by a sentient Creator.

It is wrong to think science can answer all questions.


I haven't seen the last few pages of responses but suspect yours are all similar to the above and are just plain wrong. You don't understand science, evidence or logic, and makes for some sloppy arguements from yourself.

The Kalam Cosmological Argument is not mine. How is it sloppy?

Do you believe all truth can be found through the scientific method?

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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm


Man created god/s




My perspective is somewhat different in that I think men created religion.


These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Nobody is being forced to read or participate. Those who do can provide their own arguments in the expectation that their claims will be questioned.

Religious claims are problematic because they are faith based. Faith based beliefs, by definition, cannot be tested objectively.

The atheist belief that the universe was created from nothing(ex nihilo) is a faith based claim.


That's not the atheist claim. That's your claim on behalf of atheists.

bullshit


You made a false claim. Saying 'bullshit' doesn't prove your claim.
You presume to speak on behalf of atheists.

It says you spoke bullshit when you made your claim.

I spoke to my claim when I responded to willto. I used reason. You just spoke.







You make baseless claims, then accuse your opponent of bullshit, all the while being unaware of the irony of your tactics.


How is the Kalam Cosmological argument wrong?

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Originally Posted by NVhntr
Originally Posted by NH K9
Originally Posted by the_shootist
I always get a charge out of non believers accusing believers of shoving the truths of the Bible down their throats. The easiest way to avoid that is o close your mouth and open your ears and your hearts.

Jesus Christ is a well known historical fact being recorded in even secular encyclopedia if anyone cares to read something written on paper any more.

What about Believers who don't want to hear folks like HC spewing their bullschitt?


I'm a believer Shootist.
I haven't seen a non-believer here state that the Bible was being shoved down their throat. Do you have a link to that post?
Plenty of debate here which is healthy, serves to lead one to either strengthen their beliefs or question them.
Christianity covers a wide spectrum of beliefs, not just the rigid judgmental dogma dished out by the Happy Camper types.



Christianity is defined by Christ. Do you agree?

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Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by wabigoon
I posted that, did I not.


If a God exists and wants to interact with His creation, why stay hidden from it? According to the bible, God was not so shy in biblical times. Yet we are meant to take the word of ancient people? People who believed all sorts of things that are plain wrong.

Christians don't claim He is hidden. You do.

Atheists always explain away any and all divine manifestations as hallucinations or lies. They always do. They do today. They would do it tomorrow. The supernatural is by definition not repeatable. It is not subject to the empirical method. Atheists are trapped in a fishbowl. Falsely believing that the only truth is that which the scientific method can prove.


It's not my claim, the fact is that nobody argues over the existence of things that are visible to anyone who cares to look.

Nobody argues over the existence of the things of the world, people, animals, plants, rivers, streams, lakes, the moon or Sun....but people do argue over the existence of a God and other things supernatural.

Why? Because they are not seen, cannot be examined or tested.

What you take as evidence for God is your own belief and its related subjective experiences.

Subjective experience alone is not evidence that what is being experienced is true and factual, especially not when it comes to fantastic things like experiencing God or having a relationship with God.

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Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Nobody is being forced to read or participate. Those who do can provide their own arguments in the expectation that their claims will be questioned.

Religious claims are problematic because they are faith based. Faith based beliefs, by definition, cannot be tested objectively.

The atheist belief that the universe was created from nothing(ex nihilo) is a faith based claim.


That's not the atheist claim. That's your claim on behalf of atheists.

bullshit


You made a false claim. Saying 'bullshit' doesn't prove your claim.
You presume to speak on behalf of atheists.

It says you spoke bullshit when you made your claim.

I spoke to my claim when I responded to willto. I used reason. You just spoke.







You make baseless claims, then accuse your opponent of bullshit, all the while being unaware of the irony of your tactics.


How is the Kalam Cosmological argument wrong?


Plenty of reasons, basically;

What it should say but doesn't;
1. Everything that begins to exist has both an efficient and material cause of its existence.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has both an efficient and material cause of its existence.

"So there you have it, the evidence in support of the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Two lines of reasoning that support the idea of the universe having both a material and efficient cause, and a complete non sequitur that falsely equates something with nothing and asks us to cherry pick which aspects of causality we consider to be metaphysical in nature. Of course the argument does have a second premise...''

https://www.cambridgeskeptics.org.uk/post/arguments-against-the-kalam-cosmological-argument

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Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
The atheist belief that the universe was created from nothing(ex nihilo) is a faith based claim.


You obviously haven't read this thread as this has already been addressed several times. The non religious participants here have made no such claim about the origin of the universe. We have consistently said that we don't know how it originally came to be. Neither do you. But you are the ones claiming to KNOW how it started despite having no evidence to support that claim.

A materialist rejects God. Science has already settled the creation of the Universe as an event. Therefore the only possible option is for a materialist is to have faith in ex nihilo, ergo my statement is absolutely correct. Atheism is faith based. Just because empty words about "not knowing" are said makes no difference. If a materialist truly did not know then they would allow for God as an option. They don't.

You have obviously not read what I posted i other threads. I have shown clear evidence for the creation of the universe in the past via a supernatural means.

"Kalam Cosmological Argument" is a start, but I'm sure it will be ignored because it is not convenient for faith filled atheists to consider seriously.


When did science settle Creation by a Creator as an event?

Science settled the creation event. Science cannot settle how the event occurred since science before the event is not possible.

Metaphysics offers logical sound arguments for that event having been initiated by a sentient Creator.

It is wrong to think science can answer all questions.


I haven't seen the last few pages of responses but suspect yours are all similar to the above and are just plain wrong. You don't understand science, evidence or logic, and makes for some sloppy arguements from yourself.

The Kalam Cosmological Argument is not mine. How is it sloppy?

Do you believe all truth can be found through the scientific method?


Science provides us with many facts and explanations and will correct any errors of previous, if needed. There are still many unknowns.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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Compare the achievements of science to the achievements of religion in terms of our understanding of the natural world.

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Well good folks, "It', is a leap of Faith.


These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by OldHat
Originally Posted by Willto
Quote
The atheist belief that the universe was created from nothing(ex nihilo) is a faith based claim.


You obviously haven't read this thread as this has already been addressed several times. The non religious participants here have made no such claim about the origin of the universe. We have consistently said that we don't know how it originally came to be. Neither do you. But you are the ones claiming to KNOW how it started despite having no evidence to support that claim.

A materialist rejects God. Science has already settled the creation of the Universe as an event. Therefore the only possible option is for a materialist is to have faith in ex nihilo, ergo my statement is absolutely correct. Atheism is faith based. Just because empty words about "not knowing" are said makes no difference. If a materialist truly did not know then they would allow for God as an option. They don't.

You have obviously not read what I posted i other threads. I have shown clear evidence for the creation of the universe in the past via a supernatural means.

"Kalam Cosmological Argument" is a start, but I'm sure it will be ignored because it is not convenient for faith filled atheists to consider seriously.


When did science settle Creation by a Creator as an event?

Science settled the creation event. Science cannot settle how the event occurred since science before the event is not possible.

Metaphysics offers logical sound arguments for that event having been initiated by a sentient Creator.

It is wrong to think science can answer all questions.


I haven't seen the last few pages of responses but suspect yours are all similar to the above and are just plain wrong. You don't understand science, evidence or logic, and makes for some sloppy arguements from yourself.


IQ and education are inversely related to religiosity. Old Hat's a prime example of this.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by stxhunter
Organized religion is man-made and you don't need it to have faith, and be saved, It's the biggest money-making scam of all time. All you need is faith.

Are you 100% certain that you will be directly in heaven when you die?

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Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
Originally Posted by stxhunter
Organized religion is man-made and you don't need it to have faith, and be saved, It's the biggest money-making scam of all time. All you need is faith.

Are you 100% certain that you will be directly in heaven when you die?

Aren't you supposed to be doing some community service?


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by the_shootist
I always get a charge out of non believers accusing believers of shoving the truths of the Bible down their throats. The easiest way to avoid that is o close your mouth and open your ears and your hearts.

Jesus Christ is a well known historical fact being recorded in even secular encyclopedia if anyone cares to read something written on paper any more.

Amen. You are absolutely correct.
I can show a dozen places that christians are told to share that good news with unbelievers from God's Word.
NV, Stx and others try their hardest to push unbelievers and believers alike away from the Lord. Just check out my past Sunday posts where there's been interest. They aren't sharing the good news. They hate the messages. Because they know that's not popular with Christians here, they lie and say, "It's not the messages that we keep trolling on Sunday after Sunday, it's just you. Look at my signature.... that's me he keeps kicking at. Check out the Christian and atheist debate at the OP, that's me.

You know as well as the other Christians that you are welcome to contact me anytime PM and I am happy to help you with anything I can.

Happy Camper

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
IQ and education are inversely related to religiosity. Old Hat's a prime example of this.
A/S: You wound me. Your words are sharper than a serpents tooth. I do lack formal education but never thought of myself as stupid or low IQ. I understand you directed this at Old Hat, and even though he and I seriously disagree I'm not atheist. I actually believe religion could be beneficial if we realized that most of them are parallel on matters of morals and organization of society. For the life of me I can't understand why Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Hebrews are all at each others throats. With burnings, inquisitions, Witch trials, ethnic cleansing, genocide, beheadings, crashing planes into buildings, caste systems, and social stratification that religion promotes I can see where God gets a bad name to the casual observer. I sure understand the Hindu leader Gandhi saying I like Jesus, It's his followers I don't like.


Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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