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Originally Posted by DBT
What purpose? Not everything has been accomplished. The world goes on as normal. People are people, business as usual.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…"
You are correct. That is what he said.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
What about the time where Jesus says he has not come to change any part of the Law (the Law = the first five books of the OT). "Not a jot nor a tittle."

That is what I read. He said to do what the religious leaders say but not to do as they do. His problem with them and the law was that the religious leaders put burdens on the people that they would not carry themselves. He said that. He never said the law was finished or ever would be.

Not until heaven and earth pass away...


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Jesus said “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear, until its purpose is achieved.” The last part of His comment is very significant.

The purpose of the Law was to make known our sin and to highlight our need for a Savior. Jesus accomplished (achieved) everything that the Law required.

This is very clear to me. If other’s have a difference of opinion on this matter, that’s more than OK with me. One’s salvation doesn’t depend on one’s interpretation of this verse.

Weak rationalization.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by wabigoon
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If god were that powerful, he probably could have achieved the same result without the need for human sacrifice.

This is also the condition for unconditional love.


Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.

That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.

Well?
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God works in strange, and mysterious ways.

He, is my Lord.


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When ‘Christians’ try to erect a monument of the Ten Commandments, it makes more sense to me…if they’re followers of Jesus…to instead erect a monument of the Sermon on the Mount, or of His all-encompassing commandment to “Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

If they’re gonna erect a monument as a testament of their faith, it makes more sense to me that it should at least be a monument of something that actually applies to em’.

Jesus finished the Old Covenant and establish the New Covenant. “It is finished” (His words from the cross) meant just that.


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Originally Posted by antlers
When ‘Christians’ try to erect a monument of the Ten Commandments, it makes more sense to me…if they’re followers of Jesus…to instead erect a monument of the Sermon on the Mount, or of His all-encompassing commandment.

If they’re gonna erect a monument as a testament of their faith, it makes more sense to me that it should at least be a monument of something that actually applies to followers of Jesus.

Jesus came to finish the Old Covenant and establish the New Covenant. “It is finished” meant just that.



Why say - ''Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them'' - then proceed to abolish the laws of the Prophets?

It makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by antlers
I don’t think Jesus’ New Covenant followers are required to follow any of the commandments in the old covenant. His followers are expected to obey the all-encompassing command in the new covenant that Jesus Himself instituted at the Last Supper. This new covenant replaced the old one. This new covenant established by Jesus retired the old one that God established with the nation of Israel.

And His new commandment was a replacement for all of the old commandments, just as His new covenant replaced the old covenant. His new commandment wasn’t an additional commandment to the already existing list of commandments. He didn’t introduce it as “here’s the 614th commandment.” He introduced it as “By this all people will know that you are my disciples.” While the old covenant, and all of the rules and regulations that came with it, was significant in God’s creation of the nation of Israel, and it helped separate them from their neighbors, and it gave them some moral guidelines — Jesus’ death and resurrection marked the end of the covenant that God made with Israel, and all of the rules and regulations that came with it.


You didn't answer my question.

Are the God of the OT and Jesus reconcilable, or was Marcion correct saying they are not?




Never heard of Marcion till now. Why did he say they are not?


You've never heard of the very first man to assemble a Christian Cannon?

You now that little of biblical history?

Really?



Yeah, really….. so why did Marcion say the OT and Jesus are not to be reconciled?

Also never heard that he was the first man to assemble a canon.


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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by antlers
Jesus said “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear, until its purpose is achieved.” The last part of His comment is very significant.

The purpose of the Law was to make known our sin and to highlight our need for a Savior. Jesus accomplished (achieved) everything that the Law required.

This is very clear to me. If other’s have a difference of opinion on this matter, that’s more than OK with me. One’s salvation doesn’t depend on one’s interpretation of this verse.
Weak rationalization.
Nope. Matthew posits a chief purpose of Jesus’ earthly ministry was to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, to accomplish all that it foretold, to complete all of the righteousness that it required.

https://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2526&context=plr


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So Jesus says that he has not come to abolish the law of the prophets, yet by "fulfilling" them they are abolished?

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by antlers
Jesus said “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear, until its purpose is achieved.” The last part of His comment is very significant.

The purpose of the Law was to make known our sin and to highlight our need for a Savior. Jesus accomplished (achieved) everything that the Law required.

This is very clear to me. If other’s have a difference of opinion on this matter, that’s more than OK with me. One’s salvation doesn’t depend on one’s interpretation of this verse.
Weak rationalization.
Nope. Matthew posits a chief purpose of Jesus’ earthly ministry was to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, to accomplish all that it foretold, to complete all of the righteousness that it required.

https://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2526&context=plr




You are entirely correct. See Colossians 2:13-14….

“When you were dead in your sins …(sinful breakers of the “law” of God)….God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins…(note that these sins were the result of falling short and breaking the “law.) ……having CANCELLED the CHARGE of our legal indebtedness….(the charge against is breaking the law….and we are guilty of it…. ). Which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away….(he takes away the CHARGE…..)…. nailing it to the cross.

The CHARGE against us is taken away…. nailed to the cross…..the sin debt which results from our sins against God…. The CHARGE against “me” is paid by Jesus….. the final and perfect sacrificial lamb of God. In simple but incomplete terms, the OT and the system established of temporary animal blood sacrifices was a “set up” for the final and perfect sacrifice.

In my opinion, the Law still stands but the charges that might be brought against us are….. gone…. Nailed to the cross.

Forgiven …. Christ’ purpose fulfilled.

Charges against us obliterated by the blood.

The Law, however, still is there….that is what those who reject the gift will be judged with.

A thought is that “The Law” will stand until the last soul has been judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. Idk….maybe after that there will be no need for the Law……purpose fulfilled then?




Last edited by TF49; 01/15/22.

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Ok, then, so Jesus did come to abolish the law in spite of saying he had not come to abolish the law......?

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That’s a good post TF49.


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Originally Posted by DBT
Ok, then, so Jesus did come to abolish the law in spite of saying he had not come to abolish the law......?



You may not be seeing some angles here. So, one….only one comment, will I make here.

Consider the tripartite nature of the godhead….Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One way that has been used to describe the godhead is One God manifest in Three persons.

Could it be that it was the Father that gave the Law that Jesus the Son fulfilled?

Jesus did not come to abolish the law given by his Father, but to “fulfill” the Law’s requirement of a sin sacrifice.

Yep, much to “not fully comprehend here.” God does that and He keeps some mystery to Himself that He may explain to us when we enter His presence.

May the Father someday “abolish” the Law? Will the Father someday …after the Great White Throne….direct Jesus, the one who fulfilled the law to declare the law “abolished?” I would guess not, but Idk….. He is sovereign…. Perhaps there will be no more need for the Law after the judgment….idk…there are some unknowns and some mysteries.


So, DBT…..no…as I have tried to explain…….Jesus did not “abolish the law”……

Seems to me that the charges against me…. As a result of my sinful lawbreaking, have been “dropped”…..,being cancelled and nailed to the cross.

In my opinion, the “Law” is still valid and will be enforced on those who do not accept the gift and received pardon.

Last edited by TF49; 01/16/22.

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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by DBT
Ok, then, so Jesus did come to abolish the law in spite of saying he had not come to abolish the law......?



You may not be seeing some angles here. So, one….only one comment, will I make here.

Consider the tripartite nature of the godhead….Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One way that has been used to describe the godhead is One God manifest in Three persons.

Could it be that it was the Father that gave the Law that Jesus the Son fulfilled?

Jesus did not come to abolish the law given by his Father, but to “fulfill” the Law’s requirement of a sin sacrifice.

Yep, much to “not fully comprehend here.” God does that and He keeps some mystery to Himself that He may explain to us when we enter His presence.

May the Father someday “abolish” the Law? Will the Father someday …after the Great White Throne….direct Jesus, the one who fulfilled the law to declare the law “abolished?” I would guess not, but Idk….. He is sovereign…. Perhaps there will be no more need for the Law after the judgment….idk…there are some unknowns and some mysteries.


So, DBT…..no…as I have tried to explain…….Jesus did not “abolish the law”……

Seems to me that the charges against me…. As a result of my sinful lawbreaking, have been “dropped”…..,being cancelled and nailed to the cross.

In my opinion, the “Law” is still valid and will be enforced on those who do not accept the gift and received pardon.


Or,
Matthew was written by someone with a more Jewish perspective, and Colossians is a late first century, perhaps even early second century forgery not written by "Paul". It's interesting that authorship of is claimed as Paul and Timothy, and both Fist and Second Timothy are known later forgeries.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by DBT
Ok, then, so Jesus did come to abolish the law in spite of saying he had not come to abolish the law......?



You may not be seeing some angles here. So, one….only one comment, will I make here.

Consider the tripartite nature of the godhead….Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One way that has been used to describe the godhead is One God manifest in Three persons.

Could it be that it was the Father that gave the Law that Jesus the Son fulfilled?

Jesus did not come to abolish the law given by his Father, but to “fulfill” the Law’s requirement of a sin sacrifice.

Yep, much to “not fully comprehend here.” God does that and He keeps some mystery to Himself that He may explain to us when we enter His presence.

May the Father someday “abolish” the Law? Will the Father someday …after the Great White Throne….direct Jesus, the one who fulfilled the law to declare the law “abolished?” I would guess not, but Idk….. He is sovereign…. Perhaps there will be no more need for the Law after the judgment….idk…there are some unknowns and some mysteries.


So, DBT…..no…as I have tried to explain…….Jesus did not “abolish the law”……

Seems to me that the charges against me…. As a result of my sinful lawbreaking, have been “dropped”…..,being cancelled and nailed to the cross.

In my opinion, the “Law” is still valid and will be enforced on those who do not accept the gift and received pardon.


You are talking about two different things, forgiveness and the law of the prophets. One does not exclude the other.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by DBT
Ok, then, so Jesus did come to abolish the law in spite of saying he had not come to abolish the law......?



You may not be seeing some angles here. So, one….only one comment, will I make here.

Consider the tripartite nature of the godhead….Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One way that has been used to describe the godhead is One God manifest in Three persons.

Could it be that it was the Father that gave the Law that Jesus the Son fulfilled?

Jesus did not come to abolish the law given by his Father, but to “fulfill” the Law’s requirement of a sin sacrifice.

Yep, much to “not fully comprehend here.” God does that and He keeps some mystery to Himself that He may explain to us when we enter His presence.

May the Father someday “abolish” the Law? Will the Father someday …after the Great White Throne….direct Jesus, the one who fulfilled the law to declare the law “abolished?” I would guess not, but Idk….. He is sovereign…. Perhaps there will be no more need for the Law after the judgment….idk…there are some unknowns and some mysteries.


So, DBT…..no…as I have tried to explain…….Jesus did not “abolish the law”……

Seems to me that the charges against me…. As a result of my sinful lawbreaking, have been “dropped”…..,being cancelled and nailed to the cross.

In my opinion, the “Law” is still valid and will be enforced on those who do not accept the gift and received pardon.


Or,
Matthew was written by someone with a more Jewish perspective, and Colossians is a late first century, perhaps even early second century forgery not written by "Paul". It's interesting that authorship of is claimed as Paul and Timothy, and both Fist and Second Timothy are known later forgeries.



Well, you have been presented a reasonable answer to your post about “weak rationalization.” But then you switch to trying to undermine the authority of Matthew….. this is “weak.” You are evading the issue.

Also, you made mention of Marcion as it it were of some importance. I don’t think it is….. would you care to explain why Marcion had trouble reconciling the OT and Jesus?




Further to your “Or…” comment

Or….The ideas I expressed are exactly right and the authorship and interpretation of the Colossians passage is absolutely correct. And….. It could be that the thorn in Paul’s side was very poor vision and the different styles noted in Paul’s writings are indicative of his use of different scribes.

Still….. you must make choices…..


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The "Thing", is He came, He lives!


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We don't know. Live with the mystery.

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