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Originally Posted by cwh2


Fog is the worst for me, especially after you've committed the time (and pain) to get up into the mountains and then can't even glass.


Fog can be frustrating no doubt, but I have also used it to get across some open areas that I otherwise would have been belly crawling across, or taking a 2-3 mile, several thousand vertical feet detour. Just this past August in the Talkeetnas the fog nearly made me miss spotting my target ram. I barely saw a fuzzy sheep outline in the distance and the fog then immediately worsened before I could get a good look at it. I chanced a 2 mile hike to get closer and see if it was him but used the fog to cross some open slopes. This obviously required me to know the area, but it worked and I got the ram.

Big time love/hate relationship with fog.



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T Inman;
Good morning my cyber friend, I hope the weather is behaving in your part of the world and all who matter in it are well.

It's funny you mention sneaking up on stuff using fog, as I've absolutely done that too, but in my case as well I knew the area well enough to do it.

When I did shoot one mulie buck in those conditions, the fog dropped down on me so badly that I ended up dragging the entire carcass out to below the fog level instead of back packing it as I was concerned I'd never find any parts left behind on the mountain... eek

I should clarify too that we'll sometimes sock in for days at a time here in the main Okanagan once the "rains of November" hit us and this was in the '80's so taking a GPS bearing on my phone app wasn't a thing we'd even dreamed would ever happen.

Funny in that I still use flagging tape - which I clean up on my last trip out - along with the phone GPS thingy when packing out game. I guess it's just an old guy thing not quite trusting the technology yet T?

Terrain and conditions can be variable for sure and I'm sure there's places which I've never hunted yet - sandy desert or Alaskan alders - which present their own unique set of problems for sure.

Personally I didn't prefer the blackberry tangles which the Blacktails seemed to ignore completely when chasing them on the Gulf Islands off of Vancouver Island and while I only did one hunt in it, I've got to say Devil's Club rates about at the top of plants I detest!!! laugh

Was talking to a geologist from northern BC and the Yukon the other night and he had some Devil's Club stories too as you can imagine.

Anyways sir mostly I just wanted to say good morning, hope you're well and wish you success on your remaining hunts.

Dwayne


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Originally Posted by BC30cal
T Inman;
Good morning my cyber friend, I hope the weather is behaving in your part of the world and all who matter in it are well.

It's funny you mention sneaking up on stuff using fog, as I've absolutely done that too, but in my case as well I knew the area well enough to do it.

When I did shoot one mulie buck in those conditions, the fog dropped down on me so badly that I ended up dragging the entire carcass out to below the fog level instead of back packing it as I was concerned I'd never find any parts left behind on the mountain... eek

I should clarify too that we'll sometimes sock in for days at a time here in the main Okanagan once the "rains of November" hit us and this was in the '80's so taking a GPS bearing on my phone app wasn't a thing we'd even dreamed would ever happen.

Funny in that I still use flagging tape - which I clean up on my last trip out - along with the phone GPS thingy when packing out game. I guess it's just an old guy thing not quite trusting the technology yet T?

Terrain and conditions can be variable for sure and I'm sure there's places which I've never hunted yet - sandy desert or Alaskan alders - which present their own unique set of problems for sure.

Personally I didn't prefer the blackberry tangles which the Blacktails seemed to ignore completely when chasing them on the Gulf Islands off of Vancouver Island and while I only did one hunt in it, I've got to say Devil's Club rates about at the top of plants I detest!!! laugh

Was talking to a geologist from northern BC and the Yukon the other night and he had some Devil's Club stories too as you can imagine.

Anyways sir mostly I just wanted to say good morning, hope you're well and wish you success on your remaining hunts.

Dwayne


Thanks Dwayne! It's always good to hear from you.
As far as flagging tape, I still use it too. I do often carry a GPS (not a phone app, as I haven't been able to figure out how to use those things yet) but only use it sparingly, such as when in unfamiliar terrain after dark and I am curious as to how I missed a road or specific ridge, etc. or to see how far I am from camp. When getting back to a downed animal for another trip if it is thick or for whatever reason I am unsure of the exact location, I always use flagging tape. I guess I am just old fashioned.

Devil's Club is appropriately named too. I won't argue with that. BTDT.
Have a great week!



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Originally Posted by Brad
Once again, at least 50% of the answers here on the BACKPACKING HUNTING FORUM are not from actual backpackers... dayhiking with a rifle is not the same thing.


They are really different. Wife and I did the John Muir Trail in 2020; with hiking out to two resupplies (Red’s Meadow and Muir Trail Ranch) and a couple side jaunts it came in a bit over 230 miles. We did it in roughly 23 days so 10 miles/day average... this is over many mountain passes over 10k... 11k... 12k....13k... then Whitney at the end at over 14k elevation. That was BACKPACKING. Pack weight, and as you say boot weight, is at an absolute premium. I wore Solomon X-Ultra lows and felt sorry for the poor sods I saw in actual boots.

A backpack hunt has a whole bunch of other considerations, most of which blow any idea of running truly light out of the water. My last backpack hunt I carried a really heavy rifle with a big scope and my big 13x56 Minox in addition to my 8x Swaro’s and rangefinder and butchering gear and ammo and and.... it was my 2nd time doing this hunt, I knew the terrain and what to expect, and I wanted to be able to take one at long range. Got a nice buck at just over 600 yards. I know there’s folks who could make that shot 10/10 times with a 5-lb rifle but I’m not one of them.

To the OP’s point, if I were hunting brown bear in AK in thick stuff I’d take a big bore rifle that I shot well. And I wouldn’t sweat a pound or two of rifle weight. Body weight is an interesting one. Losing weight tends to go along with becoming fitter and it’s hard to separate the two. I got physically lighter on the JMT, and I got physically fitter as well. Was a very strong hiker by the end. I guess my take is I can carry an extra 5-10 lbs of fat spread over my body up the mountain without much problem, BTDT, but I’d sure hate to carry an extra 5 lbs of rifle weight in my arms all day.

If I’m going backpacking.... out comes the postal scale. I’m chasing ounces. We are planning on hiking the full south-north length of NM on the CDT this year, over 800 miles (!), and I’m sweating every gram.. forget rifle weight, I’m debating between my Glock 43X and my regular G43! A light pack makes an absolute world of difference.

For the backpackers... Zpacks is now making an extra long Duplex. Hallelujah! We’re gonna finish wearing out our old Duplex in NM, but are already debating colors for ordering an “extended” one here soon. smile


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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by ruffedgrouse
There is a LOT of emphasis on lowering rifle weights as much as possible for mountain hunting, but I seldom read anything on an equal emphasis on lowering body weight for the same benefits. Lets say you are not overweight: your bmi is right where it should be. And you can either reduce your rifle weight by even 1-2 lbs, or you can work on your body weight and lose say 4-5 lbs. Is the loss of body weight going to have the same benefits on your your ability to walk at a good pace in rough conditions as that 1-2 lbs. of less rifle weight to carry. I've never seen anything on this question.


A rifle's weight is NOT the same as your body's weight, and there is not much correlation between lowering one vs the other.

A rifle is a static thing that you carry. It's typically in your hands or on your shoulder, away from your center of gravity. Those pounds are, in the real world on a mountain, heavier pounds than what extra you may be packing on your body.

It stands the test of good sense to have a lean body mass, but as anyone that has spent a lifetime climbing and backpacking will tell you oz's make pounds quickly. And extra pounds on your back or in your hands conspire to deplete energy.

I'm a 60 yo, 5'10", 148 lbs man that eats a whole food, plant-based, low inflammation diet and works out hard. Last weekend I did a 20.3 mile day (actual miles - not fitbit bullchit) here in the Montana Rockies. I felt great, and can promise you there aren't a lot of guys that could have kept pace. But I will pare away ounces mercilessly to preserve energy. OUNCES MAKE POUNDS, POUNDS DEPLETE ENERGY. A rifle is just one place to lose weight, but it's an important one because it's away from your center of gravity through much of a hunting day.

Another important place to lose weight is your footwear...



This is well said. ^^^


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I have a 11.4 lb 308 that I’ll be taking for the last two tags I want to fill.


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Americans - of all shapes and sizes, hauled 11 lb. rifles all over Europe and the Pacific for near Four years.

... and then another few years in Korea.

So an 8.5 lb. scoped hunting rifle... doesn't concern me in the least.


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I carry what I like I’m 60 and still carry a Model 70 300 H&H Mag with 3.5x10 40mm scope for Elk. No I’m not as hard as steel as when I left the Marines. But to me weight is weight around my waist or my rifle.
Just FYI this year in Colorado I lost 20lbs in a week Elk hunting and felt a hell of a lot better on the last day than the first as It was getting easier.
Also you can shoot better with a heavy rifle than a light rifle. Target shooter prove this every year shooting offhand.

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Originally Posted by bwinters
Just got back from 5 days of Colorado 1st season. Season is only 5 days long so you hunt 5 days....

An observation to consider: resilience and stamina, or endurance, whatever your parlance. It's not hard to drag a fat ass, 10 lb rifle, and a 40 lb daypack up a steep slope to 10,000+ feet - on day 1. The true test is day 3-4-5. Can you do 7-10 miles/day every day for multiple consecutive days? Alot of guys, myself included in the past, could go for a couple days then need a day off and 25 Advil to keep hunting.

I guarantee, not my opinion, a lighter body, less weight on your feet and back, equates to greater stamina/endurance over the long haul.

As to bodyweight and BMI, I tend to agree with jay - my BMI is "overweight" and in past years I've been borderline obese. No one has ever looked at me and said I could lose some weight. BMI is a basic measure that needs tempered with reason. But - how strong is strong enough to haul 60-70 lbs of elk off the mountain? For 3-5 trips up the hill? Over 1-3 days? This is the realm of stamina/endurance.

I learned this the hard way over the years. I actually am carrying less muscle than in past years for that very reason. I can still squat 250, bench 225, deadlift 300 for 4-8 reps depending on the exercise. The central question: does benching 300 lbs, deadlifting 400 lbs, squatting 300 lbs make me a better mountain hunter? Am I able to maintain an acceptable level of effort over multiple days? To me, once a certain level of strength is achieved, aerobic capacity, both aerobic and anaerobic, need maximized. You get resilience from being strong but you get aerobic and anaerobic capacity from training your muscles to do repeated heavy work over long periods of time. An example: stepups with 60-80lbs in your pack for 2-3-400 reps while keeping your heartrate below ~ 150 bpm. IOW at a rate of about 1 step every 3-5 secs and slow down when HR gets close to, or exceeds, 150 bpm. This type of training sucks. Sucks bad. But I've found it to be the best training I do.

As an aside, elk won this year. I mmm, mmmiss, mmmiissseeedd one..........their were intervening factors (unforeseen tree branches) which I didnt see in the last 10 mins of shooting light. Shooting over my pack at 125 yards is not much of a shot. Except when things are in the way.

I believe that lifting heavy does indeed help your performance in the mountains. At least that's my expierance. In a typical day elk hunting I go about 8-12 miles at an average elevations of maybe 8000' hunting out of a base camp. This is different than living out of your pack FWIW.
I'm 5'7" 160lbs and 45 years old. I have both a light weight rig that weighs 6.5 lbs and a standard weight that weighs a hair over 8lbs. I'll take the standard any day for what I do.

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As a 62 year old relatively new Yukon Mountain-hunter that started at 300 pounds 5 years ago and am now 70 pounds lighter I have some thoughts on the subject. It's not an either or..you need to reduce body weight, increase strength and fitness and reduce your pack weight. It's all important. While I know really strong people that can carry a 9 pound rifle, a 7 pound spotter and tripod set up and a 7 pound tent I try for less as at 62 there is a limit to how strong I am going to be.

I think it's important to lighten up everything that you can up to the point of safety and efficiency. You can get too light. Having a bit of fat is ok at the beginning of the season as you'll burn away calories in the Mountains, however, too much extra fat weight on your body will hurt performance and risk injury. 10-20 pounds of fat can be carried pretty well (much better than the same weight in gear) and will be burnt off in a season of hike-hunting and pre- season scouting. It's important to be as strong and fit as possible. A super light tent will be fine in good conditions but when you live through a storm and have the pole whipping in your face and spindrift settling on your sleeping bag you will be wishing you had invested 2 more pounds in your tent. A 1 pound sleeping bag was great for my son until the temperature went down to -8C one August hunt and he couldn't sleep that night. He now carries a 2 pounder with an 8 OZ micro bivy.

This year I have been playing with a 4.9 pound rifle that comes in at 5.9 pounds scoped. I shoot my 6.9 pound rig quite a bit better. I have decided to take the extra pound. I also leave all the gadgets at home and have paired my gear to take only what I actually need. I got criticized over at Rockslide for telling back pack hunters to NOT take a chair, but the best way to lose weight off your pack is to replace low quality stuff with lighter high quality and leave ALL the GADGETS at home. If you are coming out heavy every pound counts! With a partner sharing critical equipment aiming for a pack weight before food and water of 21 or less pounds each is worth shooting for. With carrying optics and rifle you can only make this only with really light and high quality stuff.

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rifles are the least used piece of kit on a hunt

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It never ceased to amaze me, maybe just coincidence, that the infantry units that provided security for my engineer unit seemed to have machine gunners and assistant gunners that were small wiry guys, packing the heaviest loads. Guys packing mortar baseplates were not big either. ???


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Originally Posted by North61
As a 62 year old relatively new Yukon Mountain-hunter that started at 300 pounds 5 years ago and am now 70 pounds lighter I have some thoughts on the subject. It's not an either or..you need to reduce body weight, increase strength and fitness and reduce your pack weight. It's all important. While I know really strong people that can carry a 9 pound rifle, a 7 pound spotter and tripod set up and a 7 pound tent I try for less as at 62 there is a limit to how strong I am going to be.

I think it's important to lighten up everything that you can up to the point of safety and efficiency. You can get too light. Having a bit of fat is ok at the beginning of the season as you'll burn away calories in the Mountains, however, too much extra fat weight on your body will hurt performance and risk injury. 10-20 pounds of fat can be carried pretty well (much better than the same weight in gear) and will be burnt off in a season of hike-hunting and pre- season scouting. It's important to be as strong and fit as possible. A super light tent will be fine in good conditions but when you live through a storm and have the pole whipping in your face and spindrift settling on your sleeping bag you will be wishing you had invested 2 more pounds in your tent. A 1 pound sleeping bag was great for my son until the temperature went down to -8C one August hunt and he couldn't sleep that night. He now carries a 2 pounder with an 8 OZ micro bivy.

This year I have been playing with a 4.9 pound rifle that comes in at 5.9 pounds scoped. I shoot my 6.9 pound rig quite a bit better. I have decided to take the extra pound. I also leave all the gadgets at home and have paired my gear to take only what I actually need. I got criticized over at Rockslide for telling back pack hunters to NOT take a chair, but the best way to lose weight off your pack is to replace low quality stuff with lighter high quality and leave ALL the GADGETS at home. If you are coming out heavy every pound counts! With a partner sharing critical equipment aiming for a pack weight before food and water of 21 or less pounds each is worth shooting for. With carrying optics and rifle you can only make this only with really light and high quality stuff.



This is a really good assessment.


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Originally Posted by mitchellmountain
Originally Posted by North61
As a 62 year old relatively new Yukon Mountain-hunter that started at 300 pounds 5 years ago and am now 70 pounds lighter I have some thoughts on the subject. It's not an either or..you need to reduce body weight, increase strength and fitness and reduce your pack weight. It's all important. While I know really strong people that can carry a 9 pound rifle, a 7 pound spotter and tripod set up and a 7 pound tent I try for less as at 62 there is a limit to how strong I am going to be.

I think it's important to lighten up everything that you can up to the point of safety and efficiency. You can get too light. Having a bit of fat is ok at the beginning of the season as you'll burn away calories in the Mountains, however, too much extra fat weight on your body will hurt performance and risk injury. 10-20 pounds of fat can be carried pretty well (much better than the same weight in gear) and will be burnt off in a season of hike-hunting and pre- season scouting. It's important to be as strong and fit as possible. A super light tent will be fine in good conditions but when you live through a storm and have the pole whipping in your face and spindrift settling on your sleeping bag you will be wishing you had invested 2 more pounds in your tent. A 1 pound sleeping bag was great for my son until the temperature went down to -8C one August hunt and he couldn't sleep that night. He now carries a 2 pounder with an 8 OZ micro bivy.

This year I have been playing with a 4.9 pound rifle that comes in at 5.9 pounds scoped. I shoot my 6.9 pound rig quite a bit better. I have decided to take the extra pound. I also leave all the gadgets at home and have paired my gear to take only what I actually need. I got criticized over at Rockslide for telling back pack hunters to NOT take a chair, but the best way to lose weight off your pack is to replace low quality stuff with lighter high quality and leave ALL the GADGETS at home. If you are coming out heavy every pound counts! With a partner sharing critical equipment aiming for a pack weight before food and water of 21 or less pounds each is worth shooting for. With carrying optics and rifle you can only make this only with really light and high quality stuff.



This is a really good assessment.



I agree.
I’ve been mountain hunting for a long time and I've gone through stages where I’ve tried to make all my gear “ultralight”. But through experience I’ve learned that some things should not be measured by weight alone, especially shelter.

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My backpacking experience is limited, but my rifle carrying isn't....Anyway, the first snow of the year was a couple inches of light powder....This one was 6 inches and heavy.

I finished the first up in maybe 30 minutes...This last one was 1.5hours...And for some reason my arms were more fatigued. Same with back and core. Wonder if weight had anything to do with it?

In addition, I've found out that on the vitals the size of Big Game, a light rifle works just as well as a heavy one. Haven't tested it beyond 350, however that is far enough for me.

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Originally Posted by flintlocke
It never ceased to amaze me, maybe just coincidence, that the infantry units that provided security for my engineer unit seemed to have machine gunners and assistant gunners that were small wiry guys, packing the heaviest loads. Guys packing mortar baseplates were not big either. ???



Conditioning.....



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Originally Posted by North61
As a 62 year old relatively new Yukon Mountain-hunter that started at 300 pounds 5 years ago and am now 70 pounds lighter I have some thoughts on the subject. It's not an either or..you need to reduce body weight, increase strength and fitness and reduce your pack weight. It's all important. While I know really strong people that can carry a 9 pound rifle, a 7 pound spotter and tripod set up and a 7 pound tent I try for less as at 62 there is a limit to how strong I am going to be.

I think it's important to lighten up everything that you can up to the point of safety and efficiency. You can get too light. Having a bit of fat is ok at the beginning of the season as you'll burn away calories in the Mountains, however, too much extra fat weight on your body will hurt performance and risk injury. 10-20 pounds of fat can be carried pretty well (much better than the same weight in gear) and will be burnt off in a season of hike-hunting and pre- season scouting. It's important to be as strong and fit as possible. A super light tent will be fine in good conditions but when you live through a storm and have the pole whipping in your face and spindrift settling on your sleeping bag you will be wishing you had invested 2 more pounds in your tent. A 1 pound sleeping bag was great for my son until the temperature went down to -8C one August hunt and he couldn't sleep that night. He now carries a 2 pounder with an 8 OZ micro bivy.

This year I have been playing with a 4.9 pound rifle that comes in at 5.9 pounds scoped. I shoot my 6.9 pound rig quite a bit better. I have decided to take the extra pound. I also leave all the gadgets at home and have paired my gear to take only what I actually need. I got criticized over at Rockslide for telling back pack hunters to NOT take a chair, but the best way to lose weight off your pack is to replace low quality stuff with lighter high quality and leave ALL the GADGETS at home. If you are coming out heavy every pound counts! With a partner sharing critical equipment aiming for a pack weight before food and water of 21 or less pounds each is worth shooting for. With carrying optics and rifle you can only make this only with really light and high quality stuff.

+1. from another old yukoner ...

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Originally Posted by ruffedgrouse
There is a LOT of emphasis on lowering rifle weights as much as possible for mountain hunting, but I seldom read anything on an equal emphasis on lowering body weight for the same benefits. Lets say you are not overweight: your bmi is right where it should be. And you can either reduce your rifle weight by even 1-2 lbs, or you can work on your body weight and lose say 4-5 lbs. Is the loss of body weight going to have the same benefits on your your ability to walk at a good pace in rough conditions as that 1-2 lbs. of less rifle weight to carry. I've never seen anything on this question.

Sadly, most here will spend $Thousands to save a few ounces here and there on light weight gear.

And could easily lose 20 lbs. sprung weight... for free.

And that terrifies them.


A rifle heavier than an M1 rifle, is heavy.

Men carried them all over the planet for years, along with a pack.





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Rifle weight is a personal preference. I prefer 8-9ish lbs. I find I shoot a rifle of that weight much better from field positions.

I would suggest everyone find their optimal body weight as well. Mine is around 210lbs. I'm a little over 6'1 and lift weights 5 times a week and perform cardiovascular training 5-6 days a week.

Military rucking studies have shown muscle strength and endurance matters more than cardiovascular training when rucking with heavy weight, which is why I have no issue carrying a bit more muscle mass.

I packed out three elk last year while carrying a 10lb rifle. I noticed the bone in rear qt, front qt, and neck meat on the heaviest load. I didn't notice the rifle.....

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Conditioning is the missing potion 99% of the time and we all know that.
Physics on carried weight are clear. I always carry too much. Writing this from the Colorado mountains where we have been day hiking, reminding myself I need to put in the training at home, put less in my pack and carry something to create a third balance point. Using a single tracking pole here, I use my homemade shooting sticks when hunting.
You all have convinced me to get some lighter boots. I like my solid leather vibrams… but used my Oakley desert boots this trip and wow the difference in leg effort.

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