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Curious what some of you with ties to the industry see and hear? Do the ammo manufacturers have any insight on what's coming in 5, 10 years? Curious if even the more conservative states will be up against this down the road.


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Do you anticipate the communists now running America to slow down their assault on everything traditional conservative Americans hold dear?

Me neither.


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Originally Posted by Mgw619
Curious what some of you with ties to the industry see and hear? Do the ammo manufacturers have any insight on what's coming in 5, 10 years? Curious if even the more conservative states will be up against this down the road.


I doubt the more conservative states will follow California anytime soon.

One of the reasons so many bullet companies are making lead-free bullets is they also sell bullets in Europe--and have for a long time, both to handloaders (yes, there are plenty in Europe) and to ammo companies. Relatively few European countries require lead-free bullets, but it's still a major market.


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I sure as hell hope not.
Sitting here on 50 cal cans full of bullets I like,
Suddenly made worthless, and causing me to need buy high
dollar crap I don't want.




PGC probably would think that makes it a great idea.
Guarandamtee if i see Barnes ads in the rule pamphlet,
I'll be dumping some partitions on the classifieds.


When I saw adverts for in lines, "Why, we can't use them?"
2 years later, it became obvious.

When ads for crossnows appeared,
it was an easy guess. $$$$$$$$$$$$


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This is already happening in Utah...........the Utah Fish and Game will harass you endlessly to use copper bullets if you draw certain tags, in some unit's they will give you free copper bullet's to save the "California Fhuqking Condors". and send you e-mails for months after the hunt trying to make you feel guilty if you didn't use copper bullet's

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It came up for a vote in the NY legislature last year and was voted down. NY State is a funny place, big city down south and most of the other part of the state rural with a tradition of hunting. BUT, they won't stop until they get their way. They crept it in bit by bit in California. Text book creep. Make it optional, but highly recommended, then only in a few areas like the condor range, expand it to a wider range than the whole state all the while publicizing in articles about the evils of lead in the environment.. We fought it, but in the "Land of Fruits and Nuts" we don't stand a chance. Mountain Lion hunting banned, a few years later bobcat hunting banned, trapping banned no telling what's next.

Last edited by Yaddio; 01/17/22.

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There has been one guy who will get an article published in WON now and then praising the merits of lead free ammo. Bald Eagles feeding on gut piles and the like displaying lead poisoning.

Read comments where it was asked if the Eagles are displaying lead poisoning, why aren't crows and other critters that feed on guts displaying the same.

Makes me think that the anti-lead bullet proponents are invested in copper futures.


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Our doofus.gov in WA State will giddily follow anything Kommiefornia does.


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The left, greenies and others been after lead for over 60 years. The young wildlife biologists have had it pushed up their butts and down their throats for 45 years. You wonder why they advocate for it? The left has always believed that if you can get rid of lead you can eliminate inexpensive shooting making it an expensive proposition thereby reducing the amount of it. You 've all got a taste of short ammo supplies over the last 2 years imagine how much there would be if it all was required to be non tox? It's never been about the focking condors but about getting rid of the shooting sports and firearms ownership....mb


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Some of the direction they are going is lead free for hunting, but not restricted for range, plinking etc.

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personally i hope this never happens , look how years ago these fools pushed steel shot and got that a rule / law , i think more ducks die now from being wounded with steel shot . when my son was 10 years old and we were duck hunting over decoys using steel shot i handed my son 6 - #4 shot lead 3 inch mags he killed 5 ducks then said to me dad steel shot is stupid . that`s the way it will be with copper bullets too just as my young son said : STUPID !

Last edited by pete53; 01/18/22.

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The overwhelming majority of Pa hunters would ignore it...The GC already has to deal with increasing distaste and loathing for much of how they do business.

They have a stamp required to Pheasant hunt....have yet to see a GW ask to see it. In fact have yet to see a GW this entire year. And in the last 10 at least have only seen one. And he didn't bother to say anything.


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I hope not, but I see Colorado going to it as we have become more and more liberal. CPW has been advising it for several years now in the Big Game brochure.

Right off the bat this year, three women liberal legislators introduced a bill to ban Mountian Lion, Bobcat and Lynx hunting. The CPW Commissioners are appointed by POS Polis and none of then have any ties to hunting. We have liberal democrat majority in the house and Senate and a liberal democrat governor. So now we will be getting wolves in two years along with more cats


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No talk of it here, as far as I know.

One curious new thing though (well maybe not that curious come to think of it) is the range where we hold our Schuetzen matches now requires us to fill out a "lead report" at the end of the match. It records how many shots of X weight bullets, even .22's, that we put into the backstops. Funny thing, it's not required by any gov't agency but is requested by The Nature Conservancy (and acquiesced to by the Fish&Game club) , ostensibly because of the scenic Monocacy River that flows past the range - 2 or 3 hundred feet away. We're starting to cast about for a new venue because "once you let the camel stick his nose in the tent..." A shame, because if it comes to that, the weenies win.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of a bunch of old guys shooting cast bullets at a very leisurely rate out of 120 year old rifles. Gotta make the world safe, clean, and lead free for the snowflakes, don'tcha know.


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What I see happening well before a state to state ban is that the goobermint will ban all lead hunting bullets from federal lands. Then the states will follow.



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Originally Posted by Swifty52
What I see happening well before a state to state ban is that the goobermint will ban all lead hunting bullets from federal lands. Then the states will follow.


well with a wink of the eye ,we sure will all follow this rule / law right ? just for the snowflakes ? " no grinning or laughing " or swearing


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Well Pete whether people follow or not isn’t the point is it. But if like the steel shot rule they put the fine high enough plus maybe loss of weapon and hunting privileges my guess is 80% + will comply. Point is just like steel shot once the gooberment decided, it was adopted in all states.



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I don’t much care what the state regs dictate as much as I’m rethinking eating lead chips in my venison. What has given me pause was answering a question yesterday on 180 grain Power Point ammunition down in the Deer Hunting section. A test of 180 grain bullets in Handloader Magazine for penetration and weight retention that I have showed my favorite 180 grain round nose Core-Lokt losing a third of it’s bullet weight in 14” of penetration. The only deer that I’ve ever lost was with a Barnes TSX, so I’m not a fan of that one, but a TTSX sure might be worth a try given what I’ve read here.


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Yes, it can happen. In my small, and also prosperous little town (but no longer so conservative with about 10,000 pop), a new state of the art golf course was built on the south edge of the community. What to do with the old 9-hole country golf course several miles out of town.

The city council came up with what I thought was a imaginative idea for both the land use, and social-development growth of the younger generation, but really all of the community. Develop and archery range, a rifle range, a handgun range, and a sporting clays venue. The possibilities included developing a high school trap team for both the boys and the girls (the community was about to embark on a north of $50 mill state-of-the-art high school). Working with the DNR, we even obtained a $100k grant to go to the project.

Well, the city council bubba’d communication with the community all along, and the whole marketing thing to the surrounding area was virtually non-existent. Plus some residents a half mile away complained at the hearings of the terrible sound pollution that would result, and a nearby family doc claimed at the hearings the lead would pollute the ground water and the “river that ran through it (a small creek).” This, in spite of the DNR’s tests showing neither sound nor lead would be a problem. It was voted down. There were some strong voices opposed and not enough in favor, or they were silent.

The old golf course? It still stands idle, weedy, and abandoned. About 6-7 years now. A grand opportunity forever missed.

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It's not just the rifle cartridges that require lead-free in California. It's all upland game as well with shotguns.


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Originally Posted by Yaddio
It's not just the rifle cartridges that require lead-free in California. It's all upland game as well with shotguns.


Yep, believe that’s the rule on all federal lands for shot. Ole Commie Bam Bam did in fact ban all toxic ammo and sinkers from federal land and Trump overturned it.

As the internet freaked out over Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke riding a horse to his first day on the new job Thursday, environmental activists expressed outrage over one of his first actions: overturning a federal ban on hunting with lead ammunition in national parks and wildlife refuges.
Zinke signed Secretarial Order 3346, which repeals a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service directive the Obama administration issued the day before President Donald Trump took office barring the use of lead ammunition and fishing tackle in national parks and wildlife refuges. Zinke also signed an order to expand hunting, fishing and recreation access on federal lands.



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You keep one magazine loaded with copper bullets to show the game warden, and you keep magazine loaded with the bullets you hunt with. Not that it's an issue around here.


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Originally Posted by Fireball2
You keep one magazine loaded with copper bullets to show the game warden, and you keep magazine loaded with the bullets you hunt with. Not that it's an issue around here.

That wont fly. You can not have lead on your possession while hunting.
You dont think duck hunters have thought of that?


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There's a good chance Gavin Newsom, the current Governor of California, will be running for president in 2024. My guess is they won't try to tackle the lead free bullets nationwide as it would be a difficult task to get most states to go along with it. I personally see them trying to take guns away from citizens first and tackle all of there agenda in one move!


Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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Originally Posted by whackem_stackem
Originally Posted by Fireball2
You keep one magazine loaded with copper bullets to show the game warden, and you keep magazine loaded with the bullets you hunt with. Not that it's an issue around here.

That wont fly. You can not have lead on your possession while hunting.
You dont think duck hunters have thought of that?


A guy I worked with found out the hard way on that. Out duck hunting CO checks him out. He had 2 shells in a pocket he missed from pheasant hunting. Lead shot in possession while duck hunting, busted, and he didn’t like the cost of the outcome.



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Originally Posted by Swifty52
Originally Posted by whackem_stackem
Originally Posted by Fireball2
You keep one magazine loaded with copper bullets to show the game warden, and you keep magazine loaded with the bullets you hunt with. Not that it's an issue around here.

That wont fly. You can not have lead on your possession while hunting.
You dont think duck hunters have thought of that?


A guy I worked with found out the hard way on that. Out duck hunting CO checks him out. He had 2 shells in a pocket he missed from pheasant hunting. Lead shot in possession while duck hunting, busted, and he didn’t like the cost of the outcome.


I have a good friend from Venezuela who is an avid hunter and survivalist, have picked up some pretty good tips on how to properly get around the authorities who support communist agendas!


Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
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I certainly hope not. Doing so would eliminate half the threads on the Campfire.

😆

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I handload Bismuth shot for waterfowling, in AA target hulls. Had a game warden check my ammo (didn't check my gun because it's a side-by-side doublegun) and he frowned at the stuff. Wanted to write me up even though I argued 'til i was blue in the face. We finally compromised and he took a shell to have analyzed, the fine on hold until after the lab report. Never heard a word back.


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Since a magnet (for steel) won’t work on Bismuth, GW’s should be ready to open a shotshell and identify the Bismuth. Perhaps they need a workshop or two. Its not a particularly difficult problem. 😉

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About ten years ago I tried the Barnes TTSX. It worked so well and is so accurate, it is all I use anymore, not because it is required, but because it is better.

The older Barnes are a different story and have not tried monos from any other company. So my comment is specific to the Barnes TTSX. It is a really good hunting bullet.

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pretty soon in California ,it will be illegal to use lead bullets to shoot criminals with in self defense or the police using it ,, dont want to wound them and have them die of lead poisening dontcha know (sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Since a magnet (for steel) won’t work on Bismuth, GW’s should be ready to open a shotshell and identify the Bismuth. Perhaps they need a workshop or two. Its not a particularly difficult problem. 😉


This is a good one!^^^ Never happen tho.

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Since a magnet (for steel) won’t work on Bismuth, GW’s should be ready to open a shotshell and identify the Bismuth. Perhaps they need a workshop or two. Its not a particularly difficult problem. 😉


Just for spite I drop one lead BB in the shot cup before dumping in the bismuth shot.


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When this copper thing first came out, I questioned and was told by a Calif Warden in my area, "If I pull you over, and it is plain that you are an azzwhole, I will check your ammo and use it as just one more tool to stack charges against you...if you appear to be playing by the rules, I'm not going to be checking your ammo." Pretty much the way the local cops handle the seat belt law.
But that is just 1 warden.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Originally Posted by Yaddio
It's not just the rifle cartridges that require lead-free in California. It's all upland game as well with shotguns.

Makes me glad I voted with my feet.


I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
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Probably…but…

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I began to read about this topic and discovered that even upland bird hunting in California is banned! Here is a summary, fall of 2019:
"The ban prohibits the use of lead projectiles and applies to all hunting (including public and private land), all wildlife (game birds, non-game birds and mammals) and all firearms (rifles, shotguns, pistols and muzzleloader) "in any gauge or caliber for the take of any legal species," according to the CDFW."
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/californias-full-lead-ammo-ban-begins-july-1/

The use of lead ammunition will still be allowed for target shooting, as long as the ammo is being shot in an area where lead is not restricted otherwise. The ban also won't require nonlead ammunition for pellet guns or personal protection guns.

However, even those who are hunting for depredation purposes to dispatch wildlife destroying property or livestock will need to use lead-free ammo.

============================

Back when they banned lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1991 I thought it was a mistake based on poor studies. IIRC there was a study a long time ago that blamed lead shot when it might have been avian cholera and avian botulism that actually caused the deaths.

In more recent times I have read that condors ARE dying from lead poisoning but I am still not convinced that most of our ducks and geese are dying due to lead poisoning. More inclined to believe in diseases killing them.

===========================


There are plenty of states that ban fishing weights claiming that the common loon is affected. Wondering what the loon is doing to be affected to the level stated below..

Besides banning lead in rifles and shotguns in some places, there are quite a few states that ban lead fishing sinkers and jigs that weigh less than one ounce. They claim the lead is killing loons:

New Hampshire
 Lead jigs and sinkers account for 48% of mortalities among adult loons, which is the largest single cause of
adult Common Loon mortalities in New Hampshire.

New York
 In 2004, New York listed the Common Loon as a Species of Special Concern. It banned the sale of small
fishing sinkers because ingesting lead fishing tackle is one of the leading causes of death for adult Common
Loon and other wildlife in New York.

Maine
 The adult Common Loon population in Maine is small. Maine concluded that keeping lead sinkers out of
Maine waters would increase the survival rate of these birds and allow for population growth of the
species.

Massachusetts
 The regulation was implemented primarily to protect Massachusetts’ small population of Common Loon.

Vermont
to prevent the Common Loon and other birds from becoming endangered in the future.

Washington
 Washington enforces a ban on the use of lead weights and jigs that measure 1.5 inches or less when fishing
on certain lakes in the state.

====================================



From 2013 on the condors in N. Az:

Consider the source, the center for bio diversity: Of the 166 condors reintroduced into Utah and Arizona since 1996, 81 have died or disappeared. When the cause of death could be determined, more than half were due to poisoning from ingesting lead ammunition fragments left in gut piles or carcasses of shot game. At least 38 condors have been killed by lead poisoning in Arizona and Utah, with more deaths suspected to be linked to lead. Lead poisoning recently killed the female of Utah’s only breeding pair of condors. Each year, up to half of the wild Grand Canyon condors must be given life-saving, emergency blood treatment for lead poisoning.

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2013/lead-04-16-2013.html



Az Game and Fish believes it:
https://www.williamsnews.com/news/2020/sep/22/azgfd-reminds-hunters-lead-ammo-can-poison-condor-/

==================

There are all sorts of links on the web that say ducks and geese are affected by lead like this one:

https://www.vet.upenn.edu/research/...-sheets/fact-sheet-detail/lead-poisoning

================


I am thinking that it may just be a short matter of time before all lead shot is a thing of the past. (Some sources are writing about upland birds being affected) Thinking lead bullets will be outlawed but that will happen decades from now.

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I live in a state that does not currently ban lead ammo, but I choose to use Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX simply because of their performance on game and in my rifles.


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Pretty much make a 22 LR useless for hunting in these areas where lead is banned, right?


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Originally Posted by Yaddio
Pretty much make a 22 LR useless for hunting in these areas where lead is banned, right?


CCI is making lead free .22 LR.


Mathew 22: 37-39



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If Oregon banned it, the Potland crowd would follow, but beyond that.... you see Fish and Game or Federal Rangers out like the first day of the season.... more like trying to hand out tickets for not wearing your seat belt on Forest Service roads.... 25 and 30 miles in the back country....

after that, they seem to go back to the office and disappear until next season...

most people in rural Oregon, which is most of the state...... don't comply with much of anything....that comes out of Salem...
mainly due to the lack of presence of LEOs....


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Originally Posted by cra1948
Originally Posted by Yaddio
Pretty much make a 22 LR useless for hunting in these areas where lead is banned, right?


CCI is making lead free .22 LR.

Polls show that to date...no animals have been killed with it yet, although many have been shot at.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Around here,wind turbines are killing more birds than lead bullets


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flintlocke,

I tested CCI .22 LR, along with Winchester .22 Magnum and CCI .17 HMR lead-free ammo, a LOT a few years ago for an article in RIFLE magazine, both for accuracy and effect on animals. This was partly done because bunch of subscribers live in California, and were asking questions.

It was "gopher" season in this part of Montana--Richardson's ground squirrels. The .22 ammo shot well, especially in Eileen's Anschutz 54 sporter, and as far as we could tell killed gophers just like most high-velocity HP Long Rifle ammo. The 21-grain bullets did wind-drift a little more than lead HPs at longer ranges, but the 1800+ fps muzzle velocity helped considerably in trajectory at LR ranges.

The .22 Magnum ammo didn't expand much on gophers. Dunno the 30-grain bullets were designed for use on larger varmints, but I quit shooting gophers pretty quickly with it. Muzzle velocity was similar to 40-grain lead ammo, a little over 2000 fps. It shot pretty accurately in my Ruger American, but that rifle shoots just about any ammo well.

The CCI 15.5 grain .17 HMR stuff was VERY accurate and effective in my CZ 452, with a muzzle velocity of around 2600.

The article also appeared, with some updated info, as a chapter in GUN GACK III.


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I have E-tips and TTSXs and other bullets for CFs, but have yet to find any LF .22s to even try.


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Pappy,

If I recall correctly, I found both the .22 LR and Magnum ammo in local Montana stores, but had to order the .17 HMR stuff.


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I don't mean to change the direction of this thread, but I would sure love to see lead-free recipes in reloading manuals separate from the lead data. Lead-free should have their own section due to their differences. "As this lead-free only" for hunting spreads across the country, (and I believe it will), the powder and bullet companies should tailor these loads separately.

One more thing... The environmentalists do whatever they can to get lead out of hunting. The politicians use this info to joyfully jab a stick in the eye of gun owners and hunters.


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Eventually you will see lead free in all states.

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I doubt that will happen before any of us posting here are still above ground....


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I doubt that will happen before any of us posting here are still above ground....

36 here. That's why I'm asking. Still a lot of hunting left. Sounds like nothing major to change in the next 5 plus years.


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Originally Posted by Yaddio
It came up for a vote in the NY legislature last year and was voted down. NY State is a funny place, big city down south and most of the other part of the state rural with a tradition of hunting. BUT, they won't stop until they get their way. They crept it in bit by bit in California. Text book creep. Make it optional, but highly recommended, then only in a few areas like the condor range, expand it to a wider range than the whole state all the while publicizing in articles about the evils of lead in the environment.. We fought it, but in the "Land of Fruits and Nuts" we don't stand a chance. Mountain Lion hunting banned, a few years later bobcat hunting banned, trapping banned no telling what's next.


Ban on bear hunting will be next. You won’t be allowed to hunt an “iconic” species!

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I have seen anti lead at the sportsman’s show in California, telling me that if I cared about the game I would choose to shoot non tox as he had. This was prior to state wide prohibition on lead hunting Bullets.
Now I have seen similar propaganda in Nevada. No doubt it is a agenda.
On another note wife had a mule deer tag in CA near Mammoth a few years ago( 1st year of lead ban) We had parked the truck high on a 4 wheel tribe road. Game warden seen our truck and bee lined it for us before we started hiking. He look at my wife’s ammunition ( Barnes TTSX) and wanted to see the box. I reload was my response.”Well how am I supposed to know if they are lead or not,” was his. I pointed out the characteristics that made up a Barnes TTSX he tried looking it up on his phone. He ended up taking a round. I told him maybe the should be educated in identifying approved bullets if they were to enforce the law.
I had a bear tag he warned me, he better not catch me looking at a deer through my scope. What a putz.

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Originally Posted by whackem_stackem
Originally Posted by Fireball2
You keep one magazine loaded with copper bullets to show the game warden, and you keep magazine loaded with the bullets you hunt with. Not that it's an issue around here.

That wont fly. You can not have lead on your possession while hunting.
You dont think duck hunters have thought of that?



I hunt ducks and deer on my own property. I'll do as I wish.

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Originally Posted by 338reddog
I have seen anti lead at the sportsman’s show in California, telling me that if I cared about the game I would choose to shoot non tox as he had. This was prior to state wide prohibition on lead hunting Bullets.
Now I have seen similar propaganda in Nevada. No doubt it is a agenda.
On another note wife had a mule deer tag in CA near Mammoth a few years ago( 1st year of lead ban) We had parked the truck high on a 4 wheel tribe road. Game warden seen our truck and bee lined it for us before we started hiking. He look at my wife’s ammunition ( Barnes TTSX) and wanted to see the box. I reload was my response.”Well how am I supposed to know if they are lead or not,” was his. I pointed out the characteristics that made up a Barnes TTSX he tried looking it up on his phone. He ended up taking a round. I told him maybe the should be educated in identifying approved bullets if they were to enforce the law.
I had a bear tag he warned me, he better not catch me looking at a deer through my scope. What a putz.


99.9 % of the Fish Cops in CA are pricks of the first magnitude.


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Ban on bear hunting will be next. You won’t be allowed to hunt an “iconic” species![/quote]

I live in San Luis Obispo County where bear hunting is already banned. When they try to bring bear hunting back public pressure has stopped it. BTW, we have plenty of bears here in SLO.


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Originally Posted by Craigster
[quote=338reddog
99.9 % of the Fish Cops in CA are pricks of the first magnitude.[/quote]

Arizona has a few but bitch would be more appropriate as they are female.
Paul B.


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I don't know why anyone cares. The Feds say you can't use lead shot on ducks, they also say pot is a Schedule 1 drug.

I don't see anyone writing tickets for all the pot heads in Oregon, but they do if you shoot a duck with a chilled load of 5's?

Screw'em

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Originally Posted by Mike78
I don't know why anyone cares. The Feds say you can't use lead shot on ducks, they also say pot is a Schedule 1 drug.

I don't see anyone writing tickets for all the pot heads in Oregon, but they do if you shoot a duck with a chilled load of 5's?

Screw'em


If you steal less than 1000 dollars from a store in California, you get a pass. Get caught hunting with lead bullets get a fine and lose your gun.


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Originally Posted by Yaddio
Originally Posted by Mike78
I don't know why anyone cares. The Feds say you can't use lead shot on ducks, they also say pot is a Schedule 1 drug.

I don't see anyone writing tickets for all the pot heads in Oregon, but they do if you shoot a duck with a chilled load of 5's?

Screw'em


If you steal less than 1000 dollars from a store in California, you get a pass. Get caught hunting with lead bullets get a fine and lose your gun.



Which is my point. I don't give a hoot, I'll kill what I want to kill, when I want to kill. All to eat.

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A man should never be fined for feeding his family.

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I think that both environmental regulations and market forces will move shooters towards less use of lead ammunition, but it will be uneven state-by-state.

- market forces are already making non-toxic ammunition competatively priced with lead ammunition;
- the continuing documented and widespread accounts of birds (some rare) being poisoned by lead-contaminated game carcasses convince more people to hunt with less lead;
- target ranges will continue to be an accepted outlet for lead ammunition, as will most private lands, so ammo manufacturers are willing to diversify their product line with new and old projectiles, rather than just fight transition away from lead;

And there are other market and dietary factors that influence this trend in other countries. Realize that Britain is about to outlaw all game hunting with lead. Why? Because much (and in some cases the majority... i.e. pheasant) of the harvest is sold into the human consumption market. Processors and consumers want birds shot with steel because it is easy to detect and remove from carcasses during processing, whereas lead is much more difficult to detect and considered a dangerous contaminant when left in the food chain.

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Originally Posted by Mike78
A man should never be fined for feeding his family.

Right. I caught poachers shooting deer at night from $40-50K 4WD trucks with state of the art firearms and scopes that said they were just trying to feed their family.


Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Originally Posted by Mike78
I hunt ducks and deer on my own property. I'll do as I wish.
Wrong


Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
I hunt ducks and deer on my own property. I'll do as I wish.
Wrong



Right. You keep following the laws of those that wish to destroy the country, I'll do as I wish.

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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
A man should never be fined for feeding his family.

Right. I caught poachers shooting deer at night from $40-50K 4WD trucks with state of the art firearms and scopes that said they were just trying to feed their family.



I hope you charge right out to Oregon and citizen arrest all those breaking the Federal pot laws.

You are another useful idiot for the government

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Originally Posted by Mike78
Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
I hunt ducks and deer on my own property. I'll do as I wish.
Wrong
Right. You keep following the laws of those that wish to destroy the country, I'll do as I wish.
What 'cha gonna do when they come for you? Shoot 'em?


Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
A man should never be fined for feeding his family.

Right. I caught poachers shooting deer at night from $40-50K 4WD trucks with state of the art firearms and scopes that said they were just trying to feed their family.

Maybe after spending all that cash on trucks and toys, they could not afford groceries?


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Mike78
I hunt ducks and deer on my own property. I'll do as I wish.
Wrong
Right. You keep following the laws of those that wish to destroy the country, I'll do as I wish.
What 'cha gonna do when they come for you? Shoot 'em?


I guess you'd call the authorities if your local government mandated masks, right? Gathering sizes? I hope Anne Frank doesn't set up shop in your neighbor's attic


Sieg Heil, Adolf.

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When I heard that Sierra bullets bought Barnes bullets, the first thought that came to my mind was that they see the writing on the wall and are diversifying.


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I have a few hundred rounds of shot shells containing lead shot, From 00 buck to #10s, in 410, 20, but mostly 12.- mostly pheasant/duck/goose loads, and thousand of square miles to shoot it in, with nary a game warden in sight.

I don't hunt waterfowl anymore, or I'd use them up - the environmental impact would be so close to zero as to be indistinguishable. Only occasionally do I hunt grouse or hare with a shotguns. If I fished much with rod, I'd make some sinkers....

In heavy use waterfowl areas, yeah, lead shot ban makes sense.

Unless I can come up with a cheap 410 - those shot shells will get used. I did score a couple boxes of 7 1/2 (lead) for the 20 a few months ago - those will last me several years. Mostly I shoot grouse with the pellet rifle or a .22 RF(lead ).

I get sufficient accuracy and performance from BG cup and core bullets to continue using them almost exclusively. The price and terminal performance differential to the premiums is such that, tho I've tried them, aren't in my repertoire for the most part. Novelty, mostly.

A slight increase in copper ppm in streams can really ef up the salmon, and maybe some other species, by the way. One of the reasons the Pebble Mine Project is such a bad idea. Will that be used to next ban mono bullets? I wouldn't be surprised.

If mono get to near the same price as c&c, I'll use them even tho I understand copper fouling is somewhat increased, but then I don't shoot enough for it to likely make much difference.

Call me cheap.

Because I am. smile

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It’s just matter of when lead bullets will be banned. There was a lot of hollering over the ban on steel shot 30+ years ago, but ultimately steel shot works fine for waterfowl and other bird hunting.

The feds manage migratory birds, and have been keeping a database on migratory birds that have been diagnosed with lead toxicity—especially raptors.

Whether prohibiting lead bullets starts with specific federal lands, or with state hunting regulations remains to be seen.

The USFWS proposed a ban on lead bullets on federal wildlife refuges during Trump’s era, but was dropped. I fully expect it to be revived with Biden.

A proposed ban on lead bullets was being proposed in one of the upper midwest states (Wisconsin?) recently, but It appears the legislature didn’t pass it.

I think it is likely Colorado will prohibit lead bullets in the near/mid term future, and won’t be surprised if some of the other western states follow suit.

Any new hunting rifle I acquire is getting a “alternative” mono bullet hunting load, just in case…….


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Originally Posted by saddlesore
Around here,wind turbines are killing more birds than lead bullets


So true…….


Casey

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Originally Posted by Yaddio
When I heard that Sierra bullets bought Barnes bullets, the first thought that came to my mind was that they see the writing on the wall and are diversifying.


According to the rumor I heard that is indeed one of the primary reasons they bought Barnes.


Casey

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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
It’s just matter of when lead bullets will be banned. There was a lot of hollering over the ban on steel shot 30+ years ago, but ultimately steel shot works fine for waterfowl and other bird hunting.

The feds manage migratory birds, and have been keeping a database on migratory birds that have been diagnosed with lead toxicity—especially raptors.

Whether prohibiting lead bullets starts with specific federal lands, or with state hunting regulations remains to be seen.

The USFWS proposed a ban on lead bullets on federal wildlife refuges during Trump’s era, but was dropped. I fully expect it to be revived with Biden.

A proposed ban on lead bullets was being proposed in one of the upper midwest states (Wisconsin?) recently, but It appears the legislature didn’t pass it.

I think it is likely Colorado will prohibit lead bullets in the near/mid term future, and won’t be surprised if some of the other western states follow suit.

Any new hunting rifle I acquire is getting a “alternative” mono bullet hunting load, just in case…….


Actually Trump overturned the EO by Bam Bam banning all lead bullets for use on federal lands.

WASHINGTON— On the last full day of the Obama administration, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued an order phasing out the use of lead ammunition and fishing tackle on national wildlife refuges by 2022.



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Just look at the 2020 presidential election map . The red states won’t and the blue states will. Here in NYS they are talking about banning gas lawnmowers, ATV’s, chainsaws weedwhackers, banning wood stoves and fireplaces and banning oil or gas furnaces in new construction. These people are bat schitt crazy !

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Oregon's ODF&W was pushing heavily about 5 years back. While still encouraging use today, the push has lightened up a bit.

I've not jumped off that bridge yet and am curious if the technology is such now that lead free functions well in things like 22 LR's, muzzleloaders, and BPCR units that folks really each out with?

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Originally Posted by Swifty52


Actually Trump overturned the EO by Bam Bam banning all lead bullets for use on federal lands.

WASHINGTON— On the last full day of the Obama administration, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued an order phasing out the use of lead ammunition and fishing tackle on national wildlife refuges by 2022.


Swiftly,
You are correct, but it didn’t happen until later in 2017, because USFW republished the proposal on fed wildlife refuges in the Federal Register in early 2017.
There is nothing to stop that proposed rule from being proposed again, and I half expect it to happen.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
No talk of it here, as far as I know.

One curious new thing though (well maybe not that curious come to think of it) is the range where we hold our Schuetzen matches now requires us to fill out a "lead report" at the end of the match. It records how many shots of X weight bullets, even .22's, that we put into the backstops. Funny thing, it's not required by any gov't agency but is requested by The Nature Conservancy (and acquiesced to by the Fish&Game club) , ostensibly because of the scenic Monocacy River that flows past the range - 2 or 3 hundred feet away. We're starting to cast about for a new venue because "once you let the camel stick his nose in the tent..." A shame, because if it comes to that, the weenies win.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of a bunch of old guys shooting cast bullets at a very leisurely rate out of 120 year old rifles. Gotta make the world safe, clean, and lead free for the snowflakes, don'tcha know.


And how many lead bullets are in that river from the Civil war too!


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Some of these people seem to forget lead come from the earth, otherwise known as the ground.


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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
It’s just matter of when lead bullets will be banned. There was a lot of hollering over the ban on steel shot 30+ years ago, but ultimately steel shot works fine for waterfowl and other bird hunting.

The feds manage migratory birds, and have been keeping a database on migratory birds that have been diagnosed with lead toxicity—especially raptors.

Whether prohibiting lead bullets starts with specific federal lands, or with state hunting regulations remains to be seen.

The USFWS proposed a ban on lead bullets on federal wildlife refuges during Trump’s era, but was dropped. I fully expect it to be revived with Biden.

A proposed ban on lead bullets was being proposed in one of the upper midwest states (Wisconsin?) recently, but It appears the legislature didn’t pass it.

I think it is likely Colorado will prohibit lead bullets in the near/mid term future, and won’t be surprised if some of the other western states follow suit.

Any new hunting rifle I acquire is getting a “alternative” mono bullet hunting load, just in case…….


Same, I started seeing it is an eventual inevitability several years ago. I develop a non-lead load for every rifle I get and stock up on the bullets once I dial it in, just to be ahead of the curve whenever it drops. Still use lead for my plinking, though.

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You will be assimilated, resistance is futile...

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If Shapiro gets elected governor in Pennsylvania, the lead ban will move to the front of the agenda line, bank on it.

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Gun Gack III has a good article on lead-free bullets. I just re-read it. I think part of the push-back is that Americans just don't like being forced to do anything.


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I was going through my stock pile of reloading stuff and found a box of bullets that really got me wondering........
22cal. 70gr HP Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote bullets. copper jacketed tungsten core bullets.

I got on Hevi-Shot's website and found no sign they had ever made them (I bought them in 2008), they only make shotgun ammo.

My question is what happened to them ??????? they seem like a better idea than solid copper but there must be something wrong if they went away..............

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Tungsten ain't cheap, and bullets made from it wouldn't be either.


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