Well Unfortunately I started shooting when I was about 8 years old in 68 and no one used ear protection and I shot that way till bought 78 so I have had ringing in the ears for many years.
I surely don't need my hearing to be any worse but if it comes to that or protecting my and my wife's lives so be it .
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Yep, i hand load 62gr bearclaws and 64gr nosler bondeds for Wifes 16" AR, had her put on head phones and stand 18 feet back in the den and fire rounds out the back door into the pasture, wanted her to learn and be expecting the blast/shockwave, you damn right RBB, a little AR will rock the whole room LOL!
I am no expert, but a 10.5" barrel on an AR is vulgar shooting outside, I can not image what that would be like in a house.
I was wondering the same about what ammo would be good for home use as well. I was thinking maybe the 40 gr varmint rounds as I have seen them in action on Pdogs. If y'all say the 55 is good, that is fine with me, I will try and get some. Do you know if they are explosive as the 40 are?
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
I am no expert, but a 10.5" barrel on an AR is vulgar shooting outside, I can not image what that would be like in a house.
I was wondering the same about what ammo would be good for home use as well. I was thinking maybe the 40 gr varmint rounds as I have seen them in action on Pdogs. If y'all say the 55 is good, that is fine with me, I will try and get some. Do you know if they are explosive as the 40 are?
Almost anything shot inside will be hard on the ears
Yeah, I have only done it in training with ear protection. It is still impressive. I have had the misfortune to be in a car in a kerfuffle in which five rounds of .357 Magnum was fired. No ear protection that time. It sucked.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Back in my teenage years, a buddy and I were riding in his truck across a field. He say a groundhog and stuck the barrel of a Marlin 444 out the window and fired. When he turned around and was talking to me, I could see his lips moving but never heard a word he was saying. It took several minutes before my hearing started to come back. That said, I can not see how anything shot inside a house with no hearing protection would be fun, but in most cases if you are shooting inside a house it most likely is not for fun to start with.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
I did not realize that 00 buck would make for good ammo when fired from a 10.5inch 5.56/.223 😎
Point - it can't. Wrong tool for the job.
Well I was trying to get my point across by being gentle but evidently this approach is not working.
This is the AR and Tactical rifle section .
And I did not ask which was the best tool for home defense , IE Rifle VS shotgun VS Pistol I asked which Factory loaded 5.56/.223 would be a good choice for a 10.5 " AR-15 pistol.
While I can see that you are adamant in your choice of Buckshot and Shotgun for Home defense that was not my question.
I have several shotguns and they are in fact loaded with buckshot 12 gauge with 00 and 20 gauge with #3. Fine choice for a shotgun but I Like the weight ,shortness ,Capacity and low recoil of the 5.56/.223 Pistol . My wife is all of 80 pounds and 74 years old and barely able to hold up even a Lightweight 20 Gauge with 20 inch barrel and can barely tolerate the recoil from the semi auto 20 Gauge.
I have made the choice for a 10.5 inch barrel 5.56/.223 for myself and her because of the weight,good terminal ballistics for the ranges involved ,Magazine capacity etc. That does not mean that my other guns will be unloaded or unavailable for use.
The only person who has to be satisfied with my choice of home defense weapon is myself.
I did not have to Justify my choice to have and use a a 10.5" barreled 5.56/.223 for home defense but CHOSE to, to better explain that my question was about which ammo was recommended for the weapon I choose and NOT whether a shotgun or a rifle or a handgun was best for Defense.
I am sure that you meant well and trust that you understand my question better now.
By the way ,do you have any input on a good load for home defense using a 10.5" barreled 5.56/.223 AR-15 Pistol ?
40 vmax here in case it goes outside due to other houses.
Anything will be loud in a house. It will be life or death. It likely will never happen. I'd not worry the noise part at all.
Most posted here don't get what they posted, they have been in similar and amazing are still alive and can still hear to some extent
Do you think the 40 Grain Vmax is going to give enough penetration if you were to have to shoot and the angle was anything but a totally frontal shot and still reach the vitals ?
I agree that I will likely never need to use it to protect us and that anything shot in a house is going to loud whether Shotgun or rifle or handgun.. I hope I never do need it for home defense but would rather be deaf than dead..
FWIW since there are a few using stuff that will penetrate walls. Doors. Fridges etc...
68 and the mid 70s stuff BTHP match type bullets will blow through side by side fridges all day long at over 300 yards. FWIW.
Good info
I wonder How that stuff works at home defense ranges ,whether it tumbles to limit penetration ? And thereby increasing effectiveness at the short range of a home defensive scenario ?
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Man... it’s bad OUTSIDE... my dog got into it with a possum a couple years ago and I went out and killed it with my Bushmaster M4’gery. I think my ears are STILL ringing. Way louder than any “hunting rifle” I’ve ever fired without ear protection.
I now keep nice Peltor noise-cancelling earmuff/headphones on a hook next to the in-wall safe I built into my house. That Bushmaster lives in there.... if I have time, I’m putting those things on for sure.
As for ammo I have a mag of 60-grain Partition handloads in the rifle. 55-grn ball after that. It’s my opinion any high-velocity round is highly lethal and I’m not real hung up on bullets for use against American humans. Meaning, an American is going to know he’s been shot and is FUBAR and will react accordingly. Cannot speak to how the round performs against other folks. Some cultures might be made of sterner stuff as far as personal injury. I think the vast majority of Americans home intruders are gonna be pretty “tender”.
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Man... it’s bad OUTSIDE... my dog got into it with a possum a couple years ago and I went out and killed it with my Bushmaster M4’gery. I think my ears are STILL ringing. Way louder than any “hunting rifle” I’ve ever fired without ear protection.
I now keep nice Peltor noise-cancelling earmuff/headphones on a hook next to the in-wall safe I built into my house. That Bushmaster lives in there.... if I have time, I’m putting those things on for sure.
As for ammo I have a mag of 60-grain Partition handloads in the rifle. 55-grn ball after that. It’s my opinion any high-velocity round is highly lethal and I’m not real hung up on bullets for use against American humans. Meaning, an American is going to know he’s been shot and is FUBAR and will react accordingly. Cannot speak to how the round performs against other folks. Some cultures might be made of sterner stuff as far as personal injury. I think the vast majority of Americans home intruders are gonna be pretty “tender”.
I want a home defense weapon right beside me and do not want to have to go to a safe to get it. Then grab earphones off of a hook . I want the Home defense weapon to be ready to use NOW.
ANY High Velocity or low velocity may or may not be Lethal but Lethality is not the issue .
Stopping the threat is the issue and if a certain round does not penetrate enough to get to the vital organs or mushroom enough "it Pencils through" or yaw enough to do damage to the Vital organs then the threat is still there.
So the reason I asked the Question is to find out about the best rounds for the threat that will give enough penetration to the Vital organs from any angle and not just create a surface wound that may not stop the threat.
As far as your analogy about bullets for use against American Humans . Anyone regardless of Nationality or culture will know that they have been shot unless they die instantly, and they will react accordingly.
.How in the world can anyone make the statement that they think "the majority of American Home intruders are going to be pretty tender "?
They may be on drugs ,or drunk ,certainly something is wrong with their thought process by the fact that they DECIDED to break into my home in the first place.
I don't know anything about the sterner stuff of any person nor anything else about them but they are in my house uninvited and for all I know they are there to kill my wife and I.
You don’t need a lot of penetration to shoot completely thru a 200 lb human front to back. Probably 12” max. A 40 to 60 grain expanding bullet at 2500 +\- should do the trick. If not the next 29 will. Lots of folks on here have shot tougher animals than a thug criminal with such ammo with great success. Best recommendation these days might be ‘whatever you can find’. Cant believe a center thorax hit with an expanding bullet of any weight out of a 5.56 wouldn’t work. Take a look at what’s on the shelf and pick one that makes you happy. Good luck.
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
You don’t need a lot of penetration to shoot completely thru a 200 lb human front to back. Probably 12” max. A 40 to 60 grain expanding bullet at 2500 +\- should do the trick. If not the next 29 will. Lots of folks on here have shot tougher animals than a thug criminal with such ammo with great success. Best recommendation these days might be ‘whatever you can find’. Cant believe a center thorax hit with an expanding bullet of any weight out of a 5.56 wouldn’t work. Take a look at what’s on the shelf and pick one that makes you happy. Good luck.
40 vmax here in case it goes outside due to other houses.
Anything will be loud in a house. It will be life or death. It likely will never happen. I'd not worry the noise part at all.
Most posted here don't get what they posted, they have been in similar and amazing are still alive and can still hear to some extent
Do you think the 40 Grain Vmax is going to give enough penetration if you were to have to shoot and the angle was anything but a totally frontal shot and still reach the vitals ?
I agree that I will likely never need to use it to protect us and that anything shot in a house is going to loud whether Shotgun or rifle or handgun.. I hope I never do need it for home defense but would rather be deaf than dead..
I suspect if it dumps its energy that its going to slow em down. I can shoot em multiple times. And if the first few dont do it, it goes to the head. The head won't stop it. That I know due to having shot a lot of pigs with it. In fact its broken a lot of spines on running pigs. And while it never exits I've not lost a pig to the round yet expect non fatal like lower leg type hits.
We do keep a mag of TTSX laying with the gun though in case.
I'm not saying 40 is the route, just that due to neighbors and cattle etc... we started using it a year ago and so far its better than I thought.
The heavy bullets do not tumble that I've ever seen from shooting deer and pigs with them fairly close. Never at 10 feet though but not at 10 yards to 50 yards for sure.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Man... it’s bad OUTSIDE... my dog got into it with a possum a couple years ago and I went out and killed it with my Bushmaster M4’gery. I think my ears are STILL ringing. Way louder than any “hunting rifle” I’ve ever fired without ear protection.
I now keep nice Peltor noise-cancelling earmuff/headphones on a hook next to the in-wall safe I built into my house. That Bushmaster lives in there.... if I have time, I’m putting those things on for sure.
As for ammo I have a mag of 60-grain Partition handloads in the rifle. 55-grn ball after that. It’s my opinion any high-velocity round is highly lethal and I’m not real hung up on bullets for use against American humans. Meaning, an American is going to know he’s been shot and is FUBAR and will react accordingly. Cannot speak to how the round performs against other folks. Some cultures might be made of sterner stuff as far as personal injury. I think the vast majority of Americans home intruders are gonna be pretty “tender”.
No Americans are hyped up or on drugs. Especially not a criminal.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Did you see this month's NRA "Shooting Illustrated" (Feb 2022)?
They have 2 articles that might interest you. The first is "A Bullet is a Bullet" that talks about a few designs and how selection is basically irrelevant for home defense. The second is "Testing Home-Defense Ammo for Carbines" and it gets into a lot of detailed testing scenarios for several bullet designs.
Did you see this month's NRA "Shooting Illustrated" (Feb 2022)?
They have 2 articles that might interest you. The first is "A Bullet is a Bullet" that talks about a few designs and how selection is basically irrelevant for home defense. The second is "Testing Home-Defense Ammo for Carbines" and it gets into a lot of detailed testing scenarios for several bullet designs.
No I have not seen it as I no longer have any magazine subscriptions.
Shooting Illustrated February 2022 A Bullet is a Bullet Not all projectiles are created equal— but that doesn’t mean there aren’t certain similarities.
During a recent trial, the prosecution questioned the defendant about the ammunition loaded in his AR-15.This produced a comment from the defendant where he stated, “...a bullet is a bullet.” If you were watching, you probably immediately disagreed, as did the prosecutor. If you’re a frequent reader of this magazine, particularly this column, you know that variances in the terminal performance of different bullets can be extreme. You’re also probably of the opinion that if you have a firearm for personal protection, the type of ammunition you load it with is critical.
In fact, in this very issue (see page 50) you’ll find the details of a test I conducted with ammunition for carbines—AR-15s, specifically—that deals with the terminal performance and over-penetration of different loads/bullets. During the trial, the prosecutor attempted to make a similar distinction between hollowpoint and FMJ bullets, suggesting hollowpoints, “... explode inside the body.” Surprisingly, the judge stepped in, providing some clarification and an unexpected bit of firearm knowledge from the bench.
The first point I want to make is that if you must shoot a human being in an act of self-defense that results in an arrest and charges being filed against you, you can expect the ammunition you used to be a topic of discussion at the trial. This has been proven countless times. My second point of interest deals with the defendant’s notion that, “... a bullet is a bullet.” As uneducated as this notion seems, in very general terms—and given the firearm the defendant used against his attackers—it is a plausible assumption. If you must shoot an attacker with an AR-15, it’s more important for the bullet to hit the attacker than what type of bullet you fire.
Why? There are several reasons. The first is that an AR-15 chambered for .223 Rem./5.56 NATO is a powerful defensive tool. Some might find this counter to conventional wisdom because compared with, say, some- thing like the .30-’06 Sprg., the .223 Rem. cartridge produces only about a third of the kinetic energy, so calling it a “high-power rifle” (whatever that means) is misleading. But, the terminal effect of a bullet impacting anywhere close to 2,700 fps, can be devastating; it will deliver massive amounts of tissue damage. As recent events proved, it can also be lethal.
Secondly, full-metal-jacket ammunition is generally regarded as the least appropriate carbine ammunition for personal protection. This is partly because if an FMJ bullet avoids its tendency to tumble, it can over-penetrate. It’s also partly because of its lack of ability to deform from nose to base during penetration, thus creating lengthy and large wound cavities. However, in the case of the afore- mentioned shootings, FMJ ammunition proved to be exceptionally reliable at stopping the threats. This, of course, is all that can be asked of any bullet fired from any firearm in a self-defense situation.
And finally, with most conventional loads for the .223 Rem., whether they be designed for fragmentation or more controlled expansion, bullets are, well, bullets. Most any bullet commonly loaded in .223 Rem. ammunition is going to penetrate to a depth of between about 10 and 20 inches. Penetration to these depths falls almost perfectly within the FBI’s ideal penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches for duty ammunition. Will some bullet designs damage more tissue and create more hemorrhaging? For sure. Are these differences enough to matter? Maybe, but most likely not.
This may seem hard to believe. And, if it is the case, why are there so many .223 Rem./5.56 NATO loads from which to choose? One major online retailer lists more than 150 loads with options ideally adapted for every- thing, including target practice, competition, varmints, big-game hunting and yes, self-defense. But, look at the comparison of the six loads in the accompanying chart. These loads/bullets vary in penetration depth, which is the most critical aspect of terminal performance, but all loads fell within the desirable depth for personal protection. Granted, these different bullet styles will create wound cavities of varying lengths and widths. These bullets also have different potentials when it comes to defeating intermediate barriers like auto glass, walls and metal. However, given a real-world shooting situation, all are going to penetrate to a depth deemed appro- priate for self-defense. With the lone exception of the fragmenting 55-grain Tactical Ballistic Tip, it would be unlikely anyone other than an experi- enced forensic pathologist could match the bullets to the wounds.
With regard to the FMJ load, its description sounds more ominous than reality. A FMJ bullet consists of nothing more than a thin, gilding- metal jacket fully encasing a lead core. (Gilding metal is a copper alloy made of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.) In most instances, the jacket of a FMJ bullet is thinner than the jacket of a more conventional soft point or bonded bullet. However, because the jacket is most robust at the tip, in soft tissue the FMJ bullet will not deform from point to base. Instead, it will most often lose stability, flatten and tumble. This widens the wound cavity, damages tissue and limits penetration. It also often causes the bullet to not penetrate in a straight line.
So, while the comment that, “a bullet is a bullet” might seem naive, given the circumstances of the shooting and the firearm used, the results would have likely not been any different, regardless of the bullet used. Does this mean when selecting defensive ammunition for your carbine you should assume that “a bullet is a bullet?” I think not. The ability to defeat intermediate barriers is a valid consideration, as is reliability, straight- line penetration and consistency of performance. A bullet might be a bullet, but some bullets are better at doing some things than are others.
.223’Rem./5.56 NATO Penetration Comparison Load & Penetration
Penetration (PEN) is the range of penetration depth measured in inches for three shots fired into Clear Ballistics gel from a distance of 10 feet. Temperature: 41 degrees Fahrenheit.
Federal 55-grain Nosler Tactical Ballistic Tip 10” to 13”
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Man... it’s bad OUTSIDE... my dog got into it with a possum a couple years ago and I went out and killed it with my Bushmaster M4’gery. I think my ears are STILL ringing. Way louder than any “hunting rifle” I’ve ever fired without ear protection.
I now keep nice Peltor noise-cancelling earmuff/headphones on a hook next to the in-wall safe I built into my house. That Bushmaster lives in there.... if I have time, I’m putting those things on for sure.
As for ammo I have a mag of 60-grain Partition handloads in the rifle. 55-grn ball after that. It’s my opinion any high-velocity round is highly lethal and I’m not real hung up on bullets for use against American humans. Meaning, an American is going to know he’s been shot and is FUBAR and will react accordingly. Cannot speak to how the round performs against other folks. Some cultures might be made of sterner stuff as far as personal injury. I think the vast majority of Americans home intruders are gonna be pretty “tender”.
Shooting Illustrated February 2022 A Bullet is a Bullet Not all projectiles are created equal— but that doesn’t mean there aren’t certain similarities.
During a recent trial, the prosecution questioned the defendant about the ammunition loaded in his AR-15.This produced a comment from the defendant where he stated, “...a bullet is a bullet.” If you were watching, you probably immediately disagreed, as did the prosecutor. If you’re a frequent reader of this magazine, particularly this column, you know that variances in the terminal performance of different bullets can be extreme. You’re also probably of the opinion that if you have a firearm for personal protection, the type of ammunition you load it with is critical.
In fact, in this very issue (see page 50) you’ll find the details of a test I conducted with ammunition for carbines—AR-15s, specifically—that deals with the terminal performance and over-penetration of different loads/bullets. During the trial, the prosecutor attempted to make a similar distinction between hollowpoint and FMJ bullets, suggesting hollowpoints, “... explode inside the body.” Surprisingly, the judge stepped in, providing some clarification and an unexpected bit of firearm knowledge from the bench.
The first point I want to make is that if you must shoot a human being in an act of self-defense that results in an arrest and charges being filed against you, you can expect the ammunition you used to be a topic of discussion at the trial. This has been proven countless times. My second point of interest deals with the defendant’s notion that, “... a bullet is a bullet.” As uneducated as this notion seems, in very general terms—and given the firearm the defendant used against his attackers—it is a plausible assumption. If you must shoot an attacker with an AR-15, it’s more important for the bullet to hit the attacker than what type of bullet you fire.
Why? There are several reasons. The first is that an AR-15 chambered for .223 Rem./5.56 NATO is a powerful defensive tool. Some might find this counter to conventional wisdom because compared with, say, some- thing like the .30-’06 Sprg., the .223 Rem. cartridge produces only about a third of the kinetic energy, so calling it a “high-power rifle” (whatever that means) is misleading. But, the terminal effect of a bullet impacting anywhere close to 2,700 fps, can be devastating; it will deliver massive amounts of tissue damage. As recent events proved, it can also be lethal.
Secondly, full-metal-jacket ammunition is generally regarded as the least appropriate carbine ammunition for personal protection. This is partly because if an FMJ bullet avoids its tendency to tumble, it can over-penetrate. It’s also partly because of its lack of ability to deform from nose to base during penetration, thus creating lengthy and large wound cavities. However, in the case of the afore- mentioned shootings, FMJ ammunition proved to be exceptionally reliable at stopping the threats. This, of course, is all that can be asked of any bullet fired from any firearm in a self-defense situation.
And finally, with most conventional loads for the .223 Rem., whether they be designed for fragmentation or more controlled expansion, bullets are, well, bullets. Most any bullet commonly loaded in .223 Rem. ammunition is going to penetrate to a depth of between about 10 and 20 inches. Penetration to these depths falls almost perfectly within the FBI’s ideal penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches for duty ammunition. Will some bullet designs damage more tissue and create more hemorrhaging? For sure. Are these differences enough to matter? Maybe, but most likely not.
This may seem hard to believe. And, if it is the case, why are there so many .223 Rem./5.56 NATO loads from which to choose? One major online retailer lists more than 150 loads with options ideally adapted for every- thing, including target practice, competition, varmints, big-game hunting and yes, self-defense. But, look at the comparison of the six loads in the accompanying chart. These loads/bullets vary in penetration depth, which is the most critical aspect of terminal performance, but all loads fell within the desirable depth for personal protection. Granted, these different bullet styles will create wound cavities of varying lengths and widths. These bullets also have different potentials when it comes to defeating intermediate barriers like auto glass, walls and metal. However, given a real-world shooting situation, all are going to penetrate to a depth deemed appro- priate for self-defense. With the lone exception of the fragmenting 55-grain Tactical Ballistic Tip, it would be unlikely anyone other than an experi- enced forensic pathologist could match the bullets to the wounds.
With regard to the FMJ load, its description sounds more ominous than reality. A FMJ bullet consists of nothing more than a thin, gilding- metal jacket fully encasing a lead core. (Gilding metal is a copper alloy made of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.) In most instances, the jacket of a FMJ bullet is thinner than the jacket of a more conventional soft point or bonded bullet. However, because the jacket is most robust at the tip, in soft tissue the FMJ bullet will not deform from point to base. Instead, it will most often lose stability, flatten and tumble. This widens the wound cavity, damages tissue and limits penetration. It also often causes the bullet to not penetrate in a straight line.
So, while the comment that, “a bullet is a bullet” might seem naive, given the circumstances of the shooting and the firearm used, the results would have likely not been any different, regardless of the bullet used. Does this mean when selecting defensive ammunition for your carbine you should assume that “a bullet is a bullet?” I think not. The ability to defeat intermediate barriers is a valid consideration, as is reliability, straight- line penetration and consistency of performance. A bullet might be a bullet, but some bullets are better at doing some things than are others.
.223’Rem./5.56 NATO Penetration Comparison Load & Penetration
Penetration (PEN) is the range of penetration depth measured in inches for three shots fired into Clear Ballistics gel from a distance of 10 feet. Temperature: 41 degrees Fahrenheit.
Federal 55-grain Nosler Tactical Ballistic Tip 10” to 13”
Seems as it was brought up, I also didn't care for the pain inducing concussion of a pistol length AR. I put a Witt Machine & Tool, SME muzzle device on mine, and my ears are safe, bad guy gets blasted.
“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.” Samuel Colt.
�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson
That's what I consider the best self defense round for .223 in a home defense situation.
But my barrel length is longer than 10.5".
Unless you have a good suppressor, a short barrel going off indoors is like a stun grenade. A 16" is bad enough.
Man... it’s bad OUTSIDE... my dog got into it with a possum a couple years ago and I went out and killed it with my Bushmaster M4’gery. I think my ears are STILL ringing. Way louder than any “hunting rifle” I’ve ever fired without ear protection.
I now keep nice Peltor noise-cancelling earmuff/headphones on a hook next to the in-wall safe I built into my house. That Bushmaster lives in there.... if I have time, I’m putting those things on for sure.
As for ammo I have a mag of 60-grain Partition handloads in the rifle. 55-grn ball after that. It’s my opinion any high-velocity round is highly lethal and I’m not real hung up on bullets for use against American humans. Meaning, an American is going to know he’s been shot and is FUBAR and will react accordingly. Cannot speak to how the round performs against other folks. Some cultures might be made of sterner stuff as far as personal injury. I think the vast majority of Americans home intruders are gonna be pretty “tender”.
No Americans are hyped up or on drugs. Especially not a criminal.
True, but I think that gets overplayed....
We are talking about defensive ammo for in-home use here, basically. The only reason I have that 1st mag loaded with 60-grain Partitions is in case I need to use the rifle against a NON-human target outside on my rural property. In fact as noted above in the article, that ammo could be a liability in court if I used it against a person, particularly since they are handloads. I purposefully loaded these extra-damaging rounds, etc. Total BS but as the article said, it happens.
But back to a home invasion. It’s not a zombie apocalypse nor are people on drugs zombies. They are cowardly weasels. They are invading a home because they want something- to steal, kidnap, rape, or kill. Any American knows the moment they get shot with ANYTHING the gig is up; whatever the plan was, it’s over now. You aren’t going to be stealing, raping, or kidnapping anybody with a hole blown through you by a .223. You’re going to a hospital, best case, then to prison.
To your point, I left off “kill”, because it’s not impossible to imagine a scenario where one type of ammo would deliver a “stop” faster than another, and that time difference could be the difference between them hurting you, or not. I acknowledge this, but I still load 55 FMJ.
After seeing what they do on deer, the AR under my bed is loaded with the 77 grain Sierra tipped match kings. Black Hills sells loaded ammo with that bullet.
My second choice would be Speer gold dot 75 grain. They are also sold as loaded ammunition.
I know you didn’t ask about suppressors, but just in case you were thinking about it ever, the concussion on my 12.5 inch was crazy. Now it’s really nice. I went to a shop with a silencer shop kiosk in it and they roll your fingerprints take your picture submit everything and it was super easy and took less than 20 minutes. For $25 extra they made a trust so the suppressor can be shot by my kids and inherited later without a problem. Then I just have to wait for the paperwork to go through. I really wish I would’ve done it years ago it is so nice. A Yankee Hill turbo two is a little over $400, then the stamp.
The never-ending flight Of future days. Paradise Lost. Book ii. Line 221
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
We are talking about defensive ammo for in-home use here, basically. The only reason I have that 1st mag loaded with 60-grain Partitions is in case I need to use the rifle against a NON-human target outside on my rural property. In fact as noted above in the article, that ammo could be a liability in court if I used it against a person, particularly since they are handloads. I purposefully loaded these extra-damaging rounds, etc. Total BS but as the article said, it happens.
But back to a home invasion. It’s not a zombie apocalypse nor are people on drugs zombies. They are cowardly weasels. They are invading a home because they want something- to steal, kidnap, rape, or kill. Any American knows the moment they get shot with ANYTHING the gig is up; whatever the plan was, it’s over now. You aren’t going to be stealing, raping, or kidnapping anybody with a hole blown through you by a .223. You’re going to a hospital, best case, then to prison.
To your point, I left off “kill”, because it’s not impossible to imagine a scenario where one type of ammo would deliver a “stop” faster than another, and that time difference could be the difference between them hurting you, or not. I acknowledge this, but I still load 55 FMJ.
You are so full of chit, you squeak when you walk.
Of course stopping power matters. Whether you are hunting or defending yourself.
The goal with either is to put down whatever you are shooting at with utmost efficiency.
We are not bound by NATO rules, and don't have to use FMJ's. We defend ourselves and our families with what we know will be most effective at stopping the threat.
Seems as it was brought up, I also didn't care for the pain inducing concussion of a pistol length AR. I put a Witt Machine & Tool, SME muzzle device on mine, and my ears are safe, bad guy gets blasted.
We are talking about defensive ammo for in-home use here, basically. The only reason I have that 1st mag loaded with 60-grain Partitions is in case I need to use the rifle against a NON-human target outside on my rural property. In fact as noted above in the article, that ammo could be a liability in court if I used it against a person, particularly since they are handloads. I purposefully loaded these extra-damaging rounds, etc. Total BS but as the article said, it happens.
But back to a home invasion. It’s not a zombie apocalypse nor are people on drugs zombies. They are cowardly weasels. They are invading a home because they want something- to steal, kidnap, rape, or kill. Any American knows the moment they get shot with ANYTHING the gig is up; whatever the plan was, it’s over now. You aren’t going to be stealing, raping, or kidnapping anybody with a hole blown through you by a .223. You’re going to a hospital, best case, then to prison.
To your point, I left off “kill”, because it’s not impossible to imagine a scenario where one type of ammo would deliver a “stop” faster than another, and that time difference could be the difference between them hurting you, or not. I acknowledge this, but I still load 55 FMJ.
You are so full of chit, you squeak when you walk.
Of course stopping power matters. Whether you are hunting or defending yourself.
The goal with either is to put down whatever you are shooting at with utmost efficiency.
We are not bound by NATO rules, and don't have to use FMJ's. We defend ourselves and our families with what we know will be most effective at stopping the threat.
Well, if yer gonna be a poop about it, I guess it’s fair to say I vote 60-gn partition then, since that’s what the first mag is loaded with. After that I’ll just have to make do with good ol’ 193. Unless I grab one if my other AR’s, haha. One of them pretty much eats 69 SMK’s exclusively.
After seeing what they do on deer, the AR under my bed is loaded with the 77 grain Sierra tipped match kings. Black Hills sells loaded ammo with that bullet.
My second choice would be Speer gold dot 75 grain. They are also sold as loaded ammunition.
I know you didn’t ask about suppressors, but just in case you were thinking about it ever, the concussion on my 12.5 inch was crazy. Now it’s really nice. I went to a shop with a silencer shop kiosk in it and they roll your fingerprints take your picture submit everything and it was super easy and took less than 20 minutes. For $25 extra they made a trust so the suppressor can be shot by my kids and inherited later without a problem. Then I just have to wait for the paperwork to go through. I really wish I would’ve done it years ago it is so nice. A Yankee Hill turbo two is a little over $400, then the stamp.
Good information Have you had a chance to chrono the 12.5 inch barrel and Black Hills Ammo?
This was out of a 16" about 80 yards or so with Sierra 77gr TMK. She turned as I fired so didn't get the exact placement I wanted, but it gives you an idea why I choose what I do. I can't seem to shrink the picture enough to put it here so follow this link. Lots of info in this. https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/ar-cartridge-for-hunting.245040/page-2#post-2385193
“You never need fear a man, no matter what his size. When danger threatens, call on me, and I will equalize.” Samuel Colt.
�Common sense is genius dressed up in work clothes.� - Ralph Waldo Emerson
This was out of a 16" about 80 yards or so with Sierra 77gr TMK. She turned as I fired so didn't get the exact placement I wanted, but it gives you an idea why I choose what I do. I can't seem to shrink the picture enough to put it here so follow this link. Lots of info in this. https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/ar-cartridge-for-hunting.245040/page-2#post-2385193
Very Interesting I wonder how Fast that would shoot from a 10.5" Barrel for home defense ?
After seeing what they do on deer, the AR under my bed is loaded with the 77 grain Sierra tipped match kings. Black Hills sells loaded ammo with that bullet.
My second choice would be Speer gold dot 75 grain. They are also sold as loaded ammunition.
I know you didn’t ask about suppressors, but just in case you were thinking about it ever, the concussion on my 12.5 inch was crazy. Now it’s really nice. I went to a shop with a silencer shop kiosk in it and they roll your fingerprints take your picture submit everything and it was super easy and took less than 20 minutes. For $25 extra they made a trust so the suppressor can be shot by my kids and inherited later without a problem. Then I just have to wait for the paperwork to go through. I really wish I would’ve done it years ago it is so nice. A Yankee Hill turbo two is a little over $400, then the stamp.
Good information Have you had a chance to chrono the 12.5 inch barrel and Black Hills Ammo?
No, but I also hand load the same bullet. 23 grains of benchmark or 23.2 of IMR 8208 give me between 2530–2550. The same load in my 16 inch gives me 2650.
Last edited by IDMilton; 01/26/22.
The never-ending flight Of future days. Paradise Lost. Book ii. Line 221
10.5 inch AR's do better with heaver projectiles. IMI makes affordable 77 grain razor core ammo, it's about 19.99 for a box of 20 right now at Midway USA. I shoot a 10.5 regularly and they bark a little more than a 16 but in a defense situation most people get auditory exclusion meaning you won't hear the shot or shots. Any firearm indoors will damage hearing. The most important factor is knowing your weapon and training with it.
Thanks for the sheets montanamarine and antilope sniper. The velocities on the IMI are close to what I get on my chronograph. The 12.5 barrel is definitely my favorite, a few inches makes a difference!
I’m with John Burns. It’s puzzling why people want rifle ammo that won’t penetrate common barriers in their home.
Caus if you kill the home invaders and mess up momma’s wall she’s gonna be mad?
I want something that’s going to penetrate and neutralize the threat behind any surface in my home.
I can hire repairmen if I live. I’m not at all afraid to get messy when the chips are down.
The difference between cover and concealment is lost on 95% of the people.
I guess you didn't see that video out of California where the cop killed the bad guy, but also shot through the dressing room wall, killing a girl hiding inside.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Thanks for the sheets montanamarine and antilope sniper. The velocities on the IMI are close to what I get on my chronograph. The 12.5 barrel is definitely my favorite, a few inches makes a difference!
Arkansas Defines a Pistol as Having a barrel less than 12 Inches And If I want to I can Carry the 10.5 in my truck .
I’m with John Burns. It’s puzzling why people want rifle ammo that won’t penetrate common barriers in their home.
Caus if you kill the home invaders and mess up momma’s wall she’s gonna be mad?
I want something that’s going to penetrate and neutralize the threat behind any surface in my home.
I can hire repairmen if I live. I’m not at all afraid to get messy when the chips are down.
The difference between cover and concealment is lost on 95% of the people.
I guess you didn't see that video out of California where the cop killed the bad guy, but also shot through the dressing room wall, killing a girl hiding inside.
Barrier blind ammo is a thing and is typically a requirement for most LE organizations.
Rule # 4 tells us to be sure of our target and what is behind.
I personally expect any round shot inside to penatrate the walls and would never depend on a wall to protect someone from rounds I might be firing.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
As if an example of one in hundreds and thousands of shootings has anything to do with anything?
Plus, there are not any girls hiding behind dressers in my home, so what's your point?
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by David_Walter
I’m with John Burns. It’s puzzling why people want rifle ammo that won’t penetrate common barriers in their home.
Caus if you kill the home invaders and mess up momma’s wall she’s gonna be mad?
I want something that’s going to penetrate and neutralize the threat behind any surface in my home.
I can hire repairmen if I live. I’m not at all afraid to get messy when the chips are down.
The difference between cover and concealment is lost on 95% of the people.
I guess you didn't see that video out of California where the cop killed the bad guy, but also shot through the dressing room wall, killing a girl hiding inside.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
As if an example of one in hundreds and thousands of shootings has anything to do with anything?
Plus, there are not any girls hiding behind dressers in my home, so what's your point?
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by David_Walter
I’m with John Burns. It’s puzzling why people want rifle ammo that won’t penetrate common barriers in their home.
Caus if you kill the home invaders and mess up momma’s wall she’s gonna be mad?
I want something that’s going to penetrate and neutralize the threat behind any surface in my home.
I can hire repairmen if I live. I’m not at all afraid to get messy when the chips are down.
The difference between cover and concealment is lost on 95% of the people.
I guess you didn't see that video out of California where the cop killed the bad guy, but also shot through the dressing room wall, killing a girl hiding inside.
Some of us do have wives and kids in the house and neighbors who are close.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Last edited by David_Walter; 01/28/22. Reason: Added commentary on combat
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
WellI found about 200 rounds of Federal .223 fmj in various different boxes in the house. They were bought at a Wal Mart years ago,I suppose they are 55 Grain ?
Found 15 rounds of Corbon .223 53 Grain DPX(Dont appear to be Made anymore)were supposed to chrono at 3,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel according to the factory.
Found 12 rounds of Federal 60 grain Partition
Found 2 boxes of Hornady .223 Superformance 75 grain Not sure if they are safe to fire in the carbine Gas system of a 10.5 inch barrel 5.56 semi Auto Pistol I will have to call Hornady next week
Forgetting the Hornady until I talk with them.
And until I get some better ammo ,which ones from the above would you choose for the 10.5inch Pistol ?
Some of us do have wives and kids in the house and neighbors who are close.
Most interior walls in the USA are 2 sheets of drywall and 3 3/4 inches of air and won't reliably stop any round suitable for defense.
Plan accordingly for home defense.
Being able to engage the home invasion crew trying to breach the front door before they actually breach the door might be handy at times.
You have always been one of the better posters here and this is not a bash or slam.
Just discussing the pros and cons of ammo for home defense.
John, As usual, I'm not thinking in terms of absolutes, just things that may mitigate risks in the scenario's I'm more likely to face. Notice I didn't say my ammo choice would eliminate the risks, just mitigate them. From my bedroom, the kids are typically behind at least 4 sheet of sheet rock, or a sheet rock and a couple of sheets of OSB. Additionally, I don't live in a sterile sheet rock shoot house, I live in a home, with book cases, closets full of cloths, furniture, appliances, electronics, etc. There's a lot more than just sheetrock a bullet may encounter.
Neighbor are typically behind at least two external walls and various numbers of internal walls, and maybe a fence.
Of course there's also a chance any round into an internal wall might hit a stud. Those odds can be better that 1/8 depending on the angle of entry.
There's also multiple fields of fire where I'd have a earth or concrete backstops. On such a bad day they would be idea, but there no guarantee those are the shots that would present themselves.
On thing I didn't mention above was filing cabinets. Once upon a time, many years ago, after showing his 22-250 to the neighbors he pointed it toward the corner and pulled the trigger. Well, he dropped the rounds out of the magazine but failed to run the bolt, and put a 52gr hollow point into the filing cabinet. Good think he didn't get audited after that, bullet was stopped by about 20 years of tax returns. No walls were harmed.
Bottom line is, when facing a home invasion, don't expect the fight you planned for, you'll get the fight ya get, and each of us has to evaluate our own relative risks and do our best to mitigate them. Your situation, and therefore your risks are different than mine, so our solutions might be different.
Hopefully neither of us has the occasion to test our home defense ammo choices, but it's good carefully consider such things, just in case.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Most ammo operates in a velocity window and I’d be shocked if any home defense situation would extend past that window.
I have 77 grain SMK’s loaded up in my 16” carbine. I’ve got another mag full of MK 318 barrier blind ammo laying right there with the gun. The MK 318 shoots 2” left at 200 yards. You need to know things like that, it’ll keep your mind busy so you don’t overthink the simple stuff.
Most ammo operates in a velocity window and I’d be shocked if any home defense situation would extend past that window.
I have 77 grain SMK’s loaded up in my 16” carbine. I’ve got another mag full of MK 318 barrier blind ammo laying right there with the gun. The MK 318 shoots 2” left at 200 yards. You need to know things like that, it’ll keep your mind busy so you don’t overthink the simple stuff.
It's good to have options. You can cover a lot of possibilities with a good varmint bullet like the NBT and a good deer bullet, like the 60gr NPT or the 64gr BSB.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
50 grain v max IF i had to defend the castle with an Ar, out of your list i would say the partitions. as many have said they wont traditionally stop with drywall. I don't have neighbors so no need to worry about them, just the family behind walls in adjacent rooms. i rely on the dogs to let me know when a threat is in the house and hopefully never need to dump someone in the house
WellI found about 200 rounds of Federal .223 fmj in various different boxes in the house. They were bought at a Wal Mart years ago,I suppose they are 55 Grain ?
Found 15 rounds of Corbon .223 53 Grain DPX(Dont appear to be Made anymore)were supposed to chrono at 3,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel according to the factory.
Found 12 rounds of Federal 60 grain Partition
Found 2 boxes of Hornady .223 Superformance 75 grain Not sure if they are safe to fire in the carbine Gas system of a 10.5 inch barrel 5.56 semi Auto Pistol I will have to call Hornady next week
Forgetting the Hornady until I talk with them.
And until I get some better ammo ,which ones from the above would you choose for the 10.5inch Pistol ?
Remember that 5.56 NATO is max 62K psi anyways, and 223 is max 55K psi. I would shoot them in a 5.56 chamber without hesitation.
WellI found about 200 rounds of Federal .223 fmj in various different boxes in the house. They were bought at a Wal Mart years ago,I suppose they are 55 Grain ?
Found 15 rounds of Corbon .223 53 Grain DPX(Dont appear to be Made anymore)were supposed to chrono at 3,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel according to the factory.
Found 12 rounds of Federal 60 grain Partition
Found 2 boxes of Hornady .223 Superformance 75 grain Not sure if they are safe to fire in the carbine Gas system of a 10.5 inch barrel 5.56 semi Auto Pistol I will have to call Hornady next week
Forgetting the Hornady until I talk with them.
And until I get some better ammo ,which ones from the above would you choose for the 10.5inch Pistol ?
Remember that 5.56 NATO is max 62K psi anyways, and 223 is max 55K psi. I would shoot them in a 5.56 chamber without hesitation.
Well I dont think that the Pressure difference is the main difference,But it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon. I will get the skinny on the ammo next week From Hornady and pass along here what they tell me.
Maybe, but if I went that route and until I get more ammo I would Just load the magazine that will be in the pistol with the Federal FMJ first then top it off with the Partitions. Or stagger them But I will for sure have a full magazine.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
Last edited by MOGC; 01/29/22.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Most ammo operates in a velocity window and I’d be shocked if any home defense situation would extend past that window.
I have 77 grain SMK’s loaded up in my 16” carbine. I’ve got another mag full of MK 318 barrier blind ammo laying right there with the gun. The MK 318 shoots 2” left at 200 yards. You need to know things like that, it’ll keep your mind busy so you don’t overthink the simple stuff.
It's good to have options. You can cover a lot of possibilities with a good varmint bullet like the NBT and a good deer bullet, like the 60gr NPT or the 64gr BSB.
Sort of where I am @.
Truck/ranch/house AR has 69gr TMKs in the mag because it expands so fast on varmints and shoots really well.
Have a couple of mags in the house filled with Greentip and a couple of mags in the truck with Browntip.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
I have already Posted in this thread that my question is about good ammo for the AR-15 Pistol 5.56/.223 with a 10.5" barrel My question was NOT about whether a Shotgun or Rile or Pistol was better for home Defense. I suspect that you have already Read my Post concerning that but in case you haven't I am posting it again.
And I also have shotguns in the house that are Loaded with Buckshot and not birdshot. 12 gauge with 00 Buckshot and 20 Gauge #Buckshot. Numerous amounts of Testing point to a lack of Penetration using birdshot Loads in Ballistic Gelatin.
While Any size shot from a Shotgun MAY or May not work at any given time, evidence shows that a Shotgun with Buckshot has a better chance of stopping the attacker than a shotgun loaded with birdshot does.
But again, my question Concerns Factory loads for a 5.56/.223 with a 10.5" inch barrel.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
That’s what I meant when I said a guy needs more than the 12 rounds of Partitions mentioned. 12 rounds isn’t even enough for proper sighting and testing. By about a factor of 10.
FYI there’s a Hornady 60-grain SP that’s a decent analogue for the 60 NPT.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
That’s what I meant when I said a guy needs more than the 12 rounds of Partitions mentioned. 12 rounds isn’t even enough for proper sighting and testing. By about a factor of 10.
FYI there’s a Hornady 60-grain SP that’s a decent analogue for the 60 NPT.
I figure to break in the upper and sight in using the Federal FMJ which I have the most of and then If I decide to use the Partitions I will shoot a few ,note the difference in POI . I have looked for gel tests using a pistol barrel but so far have not found any.
I am going to call Hornady this upcoming week to see if it is even safe to fire in a carbine Length Gas system before I test it for function.
I also went to the Hornady website and could not find any Loaded ammo with a 60 grain Bullet . I also could not find any 60 grain bullets for reloading (which I don't want to do ).
And nothing that is analogues to the design of the Partition.
What do you base your factor of 10 for PROPOR sighting and testing on ?
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
That’s what I meant when I said a guy needs more than the 12 rounds of Partitions mentioned. 12 rounds isn’t even enough for proper sighting and testing. By about a factor of 10.
FYI there’s a Hornady 60-grain SP that’s a decent analogue for the 60 NPT.
I figure to break in the upper and sight in using the Federal FMJ which I have the most of and then If I decide to use the Partitions I will shoot a few ,note the difference in POI . I have looked for gel tests using a pistol barrel but so far have not found any.
I am going to call Hornady this upcoming week to see if it is even safe to fire in a carbine before I test it for function.
I also went to the Hornady website and could not find any Loaded ammo with a 60 grain Bullet . I also could not find any 60 grain bullets for reloading (which I don't want to do ).
And nothing that is analogues to the design of the Partition.
What do you base your factor of 10 for PROPOR sighting and testing on ?
If you want the modern version of the partion, try these:
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 64, Nosler Bond SB 38135
Useable Case Capaci: 25.514 grain H2O = 1.657 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
59 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 106.8 24.3 1.57 2631 99.4 61500 18606 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 108.3 24.9 1.62 2600 97.0 61500 19358 0.639 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 102.6 26.0 1.68 2600 91.7 61500 18982 0.607 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 97.3 23.6 1.53 2585 95.4 61500 18225 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 103.5 23.6 1.53 2585 95.4 61500 18225 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 105.1 27.0 1.75 2584 90.1 61500 18981 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 105.7 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 108.2 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 108.2 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 110.0 25.9 1.68 2578 88.2 60793 19068 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 110.0 28.2 1.83 2575 85.2 61397 18883 0.605 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 97.5 25.0 1.62 2574 94.1 61500 18305 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 107.1 25.2 1.63 2573 89.5 61500 18695 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 108.2 25.0 1.62 2573 94.1 61500 18361 0.616 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 110.0 24.2 1.57 2572 95.3 57458 18961 0.629 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 110.0 27.6 1.79 2571 87.1 60857 18751 0.609 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 101.0 22.4 1.45 2571 98.4 61500 17812 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 105.0 26.4 1.71 2564 88.3 61500 18429 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 107.3 25.2 1.63 2564 88.6 61500 18527 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 103.0 24.3 1.58 2561 90.8 61500 18153 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 97.0 22.3 1.45 2557 98.9 61500 17602 0.633 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 100.1 21.1 1.37 2556 99.2 61500 16720 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 110.0 26.2 1.69 2556 93.7 60967 18195 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 103.7 23.3 1.51 2555 97.7 61500 17587 0.625 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 95.4 21.0 1.36 2554 100.0 61500 16638 0.618 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 105.2 24.8 1.60 2553 90.8 61500 17977 0.612 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 102.8 24.7 1.60 2553 95.5 61500 17594 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 100.9 25.5 1.65 2547 92.0 61500 18071 0.627 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 100.6 25.5 1.65 2547 92.0 61500 18071 0.627 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 108.4 25.0 1.62 2547 90.8 61500 18151 0.624 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 110.0 25.9 1.68 2544 86.8 59456 18562 0.624 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 83.4 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060 85.3 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 85.3 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 99.0 25.0 1.62 2540 91.9 61500 17750 0.622 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 99.0 25.0 1.62 2540 91.9 61500 17750 0.622 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 109.7 23.6 1.53 2535 97.4 61500 16816 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 94.5 21.5 1.39 2534 98.9 61500 16746 0.620 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.6 23.7 1.54 2534 92.2 61500 17416 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 87.1 21.4 1.38 2532 96.8 61500 16809 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 99.8 25.4 1.65 2532 89.7 61500 17607 0.619 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 103.4 22.7 1.47 2530 98.3 61500 16705 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 110.0 25.9 1.68 2529 87.3 58236 18484 0.631 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 95.4 23.9 1.55 2526 92.2 61500 17256 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 103.7 24.0 1.56 2525 92.0 61500 17240 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.7 19.5 1.26 2524 100.0 61500 15671 0.606 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 97.9 21.0 1.36 2524 100.0 61500 15597 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 101.6 25.5 1.65 2523 88.5 61500 17482 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 80.1 19.7 1.27 2522 99.2 61500 15988 0.602 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D063 80.1 19.7 1.27 2522 99.2 61500 15988 0.602 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 92.5 20.2 1.31 2522 100.0 61500 15578 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.9 24.8 1.61 2521 86.1 61500 17361 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 96.2 21.3 1.38 2521 95.6 61500 16491 0.605 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 98.0 24.5 1.59 2520 90.2 61500 17144 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 103.9 26.4 1.71 2518 84.4 61500 17538 0.614 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0200 82.2 19.3 1.25 2514 100.0 61500 15558 0.616 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 90.0 19.4 1.26 2513 99.8 61500 15547 0.604 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 106.5 24.4 1.58 2513 89.1 61500 17061 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 105.6 24.6 1.59 2507 89.8 61500 16893 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Heck get yourself a mag coupler and have both available when you grab your rifle.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 01/30/22.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
That’s what I meant when I said a guy needs more than the 12 rounds of Partitions mentioned. 12 rounds isn’t even enough for proper sighting and testing. By about a factor of 10.
FYI there’s a Hornady 60-grain SP that’s a decent analogue for the 60 NPT.
I figure to break in the upper and sight in using the Federal FMJ which I have the most of and then If I decide to use the Partitions I will shoot a few ,note the difference in POI . I have looked for gel tests using a pistol barrel but so far have not found any.
I am going to call Hornady this upcoming week to see if it is even safe to fire in a carbine before I test it for function.
I also went to the Hornady website and could not find any Loaded ammo with a 60 grain Bullet . I also could not find any 60 grain bullets for reloading (which I don't want to do ).
And nothing that is analogues to the design of the Partition.
What do you base your factor of 10 for PROPOR sighting and testing on ?
If you want the modern version of the partion, try these:
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 64, Nosler Bond SB 38135
Useable Case Capaci: 25.514 grain H2O = 1.657 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
59 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 106.8 24.3 1.57 2631 99.4 61500 18606 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 108.3 24.9 1.62 2600 97.0 61500 19358 0.639 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 102.6 26.0 1.68 2600 91.7 61500 18982 0.607 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 97.3 23.6 1.53 2585 95.4 61500 18225 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 103.5 23.6 1.53 2585 95.4 61500 18225 0.608 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 105.1 27.0 1.75 2584 90.1 61500 18981 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 105.7 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 108.2 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 108.2 26.2 1.70 2584 92.8 61500 18849 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 110.0 25.9 1.68 2578 88.2 60793 19068 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 110.0 28.2 1.83 2575 85.2 61397 18883 0.605 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 97.5 25.0 1.62 2574 94.1 61500 18305 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 107.1 25.2 1.63 2573 89.5 61500 18695 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 108.2 25.0 1.62 2573 94.1 61500 18361 0.616 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 110.0 24.2 1.57 2572 95.3 57458 18961 0.629 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 110.0 27.6 1.79 2571 87.1 60857 18751 0.609 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 101.0 22.4 1.45 2571 98.4 61500 17812 0.621 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 105.0 26.4 1.71 2564 88.3 61500 18429 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 107.3 25.2 1.63 2564 88.6 61500 18527 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 103.0 24.3 1.58 2561 90.8 61500 18153 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 97.0 22.3 1.45 2557 98.9 61500 17602 0.633 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 100.1 21.1 1.37 2556 99.2 61500 16720 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 110.0 26.2 1.69 2556 93.7 60967 18195 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 103.7 23.3 1.51 2555 97.7 61500 17587 0.625 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 95.4 21.0 1.36 2554 100.0 61500 16638 0.618 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 105.2 24.8 1.60 2553 90.8 61500 17977 0.612 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 102.8 24.7 1.60 2553 95.5 61500 17594 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 100.9 25.5 1.65 2547 92.0 61500 18071 0.627 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 100.6 25.5 1.65 2547 92.0 61500 18071 0.627 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 108.4 25.0 1.62 2547 90.8 61500 18151 0.624 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 110.0 25.9 1.68 2544 86.8 59456 18562 0.624 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 83.4 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060 85.3 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 85.3 18.8 1.22 2541 99.2 61500 16561 0.603 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 99.0 25.0 1.62 2540 91.9 61500 17750 0.622 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 99.0 25.0 1.62 2540 91.9 61500 17750 0.622 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 109.7 23.6 1.53 2535 97.4 61500 16816 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 94.5 21.5 1.39 2534 98.9 61500 16746 0.620 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.6 23.7 1.54 2534 92.2 61500 17416 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 87.1 21.4 1.38 2532 96.8 61500 16809 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 99.8 25.4 1.65 2532 89.7 61500 17607 0.619 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 103.4 22.7 1.47 2530 98.3 61500 16705 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 110.0 25.9 1.68 2529 87.3 58236 18484 0.631 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 95.4 23.9 1.55 2526 92.2 61500 17256 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 103.7 24.0 1.56 2525 92.0 61500 17240 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.7 19.5 1.26 2524 100.0 61500 15671 0.606 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 97.9 21.0 1.36 2524 100.0 61500 15597 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 101.6 25.5 1.65 2523 88.5 61500 17482 0.615 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 80.1 19.7 1.27 2522 99.2 61500 15988 0.602 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D063 80.1 19.7 1.27 2522 99.2 61500 15988 0.602 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 92.5 20.2 1.31 2522 100.0 61500 15578 0.617 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.9 24.8 1.61 2521 86.1 61500 17361 0.610 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 96.2 21.3 1.38 2521 95.6 61500 16491 0.605 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 98.0 24.5 1.59 2520 90.2 61500 17144 0.613 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 103.9 26.4 1.71 2518 84.4 61500 17538 0.614 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0200 82.2 19.3 1.25 2514 100.0 61500 15558 0.616 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 90.0 19.4 1.26 2513 99.8 61500 15547 0.604 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 106.5 24.4 1.58 2513 89.1 61500 17061 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 105.6 24.6 1.59 2507 89.8 61500 16893 0.611 ! Near Maximum !
Heck get yourself a mag coupler and have both available when you grab your rifle.
That ought to be enough firepower !!
Thanks for the information but I am just looking for Factory ammo for the 10.5" Pistol upper.
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Its been very eye opening running these 40 vmax against hogs at home this winter. I'd have expected them to splash on the sides of the bigger hogs for sure. And definitely not be enough to go through heads and spines. Its been doing well enough that I'd not hesitate to keep them in the house gun. Hopefully never will have to find out.
If they made it through a wall, and I suspect they will, there won't be much left to them after that. I doubt enough to kill someone or something else.
But like most of the folks, we don't limit mags to a single bullet. If I was out in the middle of nowhere I think we could be happy with 75/77 bthps for the most part, certainly with TTSX of some weight.
Keep a mag of TTSX handy. You simply never know.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Its been very eye opening running these 40 vmax against hogs at home this winter. I'd have expected them to splash on the sides of the bigger hogs for sure. And definitely not be enough to go through heads and spines. Its been doing well enough that I'd not hesitate to keep them in the house gun. Hopefully never will have to find out.
If they made it through a wall, and I suspect they will, there won't be much left to them after that. I doubt enough to kill someone or something else.
But like most of the folks, we don't limit mags to a single bullet. If I was out in the middle of nowhere I think we could be happy with 75/77 bthps for the most part, certainly with TTSX of some weight.
Keep a mag of TTSX handy. You simply never know.
So they Penetrate enough to go completely through a hogs head? Bout how far do they penetrate in a big hogs body?
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Its been very eye opening running these 40 vmax against hogs at home this winter. I'd have expected them to splash on the sides of the bigger hogs for sure. And definitely not be enough to go through heads and spines. Its been doing well enough that I'd not hesitate to keep them in the house gun. Hopefully never will have to find out.
If they made it through a wall, and I suspect they will, there won't be much left to them after that. I doubt enough to kill someone or something else.
But like most of the folks, we don't limit mags to a single bullet. If I was out in the middle of nowhere I think we could be happy with 75/77 bthps for the most part, certainly with TTSX of some weight.
Keep a mag of TTSX handy. You simply never know.
So they Penetrate enough to go completely through a hogs head? Bout how far do they penetrate in a big hogs body?
What Brand is the ammo ?
Craig,
Everyone in this subforum reloads. I suspect it's been a long time since Rost's bought much, if any, factory ammo.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Its been very eye opening running these 40 vmax against hogs at home this winter. I'd have expected them to splash on the sides of the bigger hogs for sure. And definitely not be enough to go through heads and spines. Its been doing well enough that I'd not hesitate to keep them in the house gun. Hopefully never will have to find out.
If they made it through a wall, and I suspect they will, there won't be much left to them after that. I doubt enough to kill someone or something else.
But like most of the folks, we don't limit mags to a single bullet. If I was out in the middle of nowhere I think we could be happy with 75/77 bthps for the most part, certainly with TTSX of some weight.
Keep a mag of TTSX handy. You simply never know.
So they Penetrate enough to go completely through a hogs head? Bout how far do they penetrate in a big hogs body?
What Brand is the ammo ?
Reloads yes. I can't recall buying factory ammo in quite some time. We have some of that in AK but not in TX mostly. Other than cheap dove loads, steel shot and rimfire. Grins.
I"ve had em go through hog heads of smaller ones up close. They have yet to not at least enter and destroy whatever inside to kill on broadsides. If they have gotten far enough in to break the spine and neck a few times thats the best answer I can give you.
I have not found an exit yet. Pigs that get body shot and run are usually found in less than 75 yards or so. Some much less.
I understand what others are saying about defense premises. I"ve also shot enough tracers at night through stuff to know that once a bullet hits there is NO telling which way its going to go. almost back towards you is possible. 90 degrees is easy. So we do care about other critters like the cattle, horses etc..even human neighbors. LOL.
If I was going this route and was really worried about not surving then load a few at the top and keep deeper ones under in the mag. If they first few hits dont' work...
The bullet has worked much better than I expected on pigs.. They aren't what I'd call soft. I have not run into one that would hit 200 or even close lately though FWIW. Mostly then are 50 to about 125 pounds.
If I was in an area I didn't care about what the bullet did after it exited these would be the last bullet I'd even think about.
FWIW 50 TTSX we had an issue we thought early on this year. But found out it was shot placement not the bullet. That 50 ttsx will run right on through deer and pigs. Still have to hit the head correctly as my buddy found out. Though I much prefer the 62 ttsx but I digress
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Any ammo that will stop a person won’t stop in a wall. Period.
Plan accordingly.
There’s not any ammo that's combat effective and “house safe.”
And before some chucklehead says “I’m talking about home defense, not combat,” home defense is combat.
Per Webster, anyways:
combat kəm-băt′, kŏm′băt″ intransitive verb To oppose in battle; fight against. To act or work in order to eliminate, curtail, or stop: synonym: oppose. To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
Its been very eye opening running these 40 vmax against hogs at home this winter. I'd have expected them to splash on the sides of the bigger hogs for sure. And definitely not be enough to go through heads and spines. Its been doing well enough that I'd not hesitate to keep them in the house gun. Hopefully never will have to find out.
If they made it through a wall, and I suspect they will, there won't be much left to them after that. I doubt enough to kill someone or something else.
But like most of the folks, we don't limit mags to a single bullet. If I was out in the middle of nowhere I think we could be happy with 75/77 bthps for the most part, certainly with TTSX of some weight.
Keep a mag of TTSX handy. You simply never know.
So they Penetrate enough to go completely through a hogs head? Bout how far do they penetrate in a big hogs body?
What Brand is the ammo ?
Reloads yes. I can't recall buying factory ammo in quite some time. We have some of that in AK but not in TX mostly. Other than cheap dove loads, steel shot and rimfire. Grins.
I"ve had em go through hog heads of smaller ones up close. They have yet to not at least enter and destroy whatever inside to kill on broadsides. If they have gotten far enough in to break the spine and neck a few times thats the best answer I can give you.
I have not found an exit yet. Pigs that get body shot and run are usually found in less than 75 yards or so. Some much less.
I understand what others are saying about defense premises. I"ve also shot enough tracers at night through stuff to know that once a bullet hits there is NO telling which way its going to go. almost back towards you is possible. 90 degrees is easy. So we do care about other critters like the cattle, horses etc..even human neighbors. LOL.
If I was going this route and was really worried about not surving then load a few at the top and keep deeper ones under in the mag. If they first few hits dont' work...
The bullet has worked much better than I expected on pigs.. They aren't what I'd call soft. I have not run into one that would hit 200 or even close lately though FWIW. Mostly then are 50 to about 125 pounds.
If I was in an area I didn't care about what the bullet did after it exited these would be the last bullet I'd even think about.
FWIW 50 TTSX we had an issue we thought early on this year. But found out it was shot placement not the bullet. That 50 ttsx will run right on through deer and pigs. Still have to hit the head correctly as my buddy found out. Though I much prefer the 62 ttsx but I digress
Interesting on the 40 gr vmax.
I’ve watched coyotes soak up multiple without going down. Seemed awful soft.
it seems like I remember reading somewhere that the difference was the pressure curve is the issue because to get the Superformance high velocity that Hornady had to change the pressure curve so that in essence there was more pressure sooner than Non Superformance ammo. seems like I remember them recommending to use a rifle gas system from a 20 inch barrel to keep the action from opening too soon.
Shoot it anyway. The worst thing that can happen is a rim will get ripped off.
You have a cleaning rod to punch the case out.
Any of that ammo you have is fine and dandy.
A rim getting ripped off and the need to clear it with a cleaning rod during a gunfight in your home does sorta seem like one of those "worst things that can happen" situations. I think he wants to make sure that isn't likely to happen before he loads the ammo for self defense. Personally I think it will be good to go in his weapon, but it is his salvation to work out and he needs to do what gives him confidence.
If you haven't tested it in your weapon, you shouldn't be using it for self defense regardless of what the manufacturer says about it.
That’s what I meant when I said a guy needs more than the 12 rounds of Partitions mentioned. 12 rounds isn’t even enough for proper sighting and testing. By about a factor of 10.
FYI there’s a Hornady 60-grain SP that’s a decent analogue for the 60 NPT.
I figure to break in the upper and sight in using the Federal FMJ which I have the most of and then If I decide to use the Partitions I will shoot a few ,note the difference in POI . I have looked for gel tests using a pistol barrel but so far have not found any.
I am going to call Hornady this upcoming week to see if it is even safe to fire in a carbine Length Gas system before I test it for function.
I also went to the Hornady website and could not find any Loaded ammo with a 60 grain Bullet . I also could not find any 60 grain bullets for reloading (which I don't want to do ).
And nothing that is analogues to the design of the Partition.
What do you base your factor of 10 for PROPOR sighting and testing on ?
Hmm, I wonder if they stopped making it. It was just a 60-grn SP. In my rifle it behaved very similarly to the Partition in terms of POI and flight ballistics. I don’t know anything about it’s terminal performance; obviously (probably) a whole other beast than a NPT in that regard.
As far as only having 12 of them, I just feel I need to run some significant quantity of whatever I’m going to use for defense through my guns before I feel warm and fuzzy about it working reliably. I certainly ran a couple boxes of (100) Partitions through my gun back when I loaded these. They were easy to buy then... Wish I had more on hand.
Rost... any trouble with tips coming off the Vmax’s? AR’s aren’t gentle... Tipped bullets for defense seem to violate the KISS principle.
Way over thinking. The Blue Collar link has over 3 pages of .223 ammo in stock. Standouts include 40 rounds of Winchester 45 grain sp for $38ish. Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights for about the same. A bunch of other brands to fit any taste. In a house or basic yard I’m reasonably sure any designed to expand will expand and do extensive damage whether fired from a 10” or 16” barrel. Buy & blast for function. Maybe get a linear muzzle device on the chance some of the concussion might actually be diverted forward. It ain’t this hard.
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
...Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights...
That's almost cheating......almost.
I’m just glad I was able to rathole enough components over the years to load my own. This old guy just too cheap to pay over a buck each for squirrel loads. Started loading because .270 Weatherby ammo got up to $25 a box!
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
...Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights...
That's almost cheating......almost.
I’m just glad I was able to rathole enough components over the years to load my own. This old guy just too cheap to pay over a buck each for squirrel loads. Started loading because .270 Weatherby ammo got up to $25 a box!
Same here. I bought a 300 wby rifle without knowing how much ammo was. Back when everything else was $9.99 (30-06 and 308) a box. 300 WBY ammo was approaching $30/box. After the first couple hundred rounds I loaded on my rockchucker press, the whole supreme kit was paid for.. And yes, I loaded up 200 rounds very shortly after buying that press in the mid 90's. I wore the barrel out on that poor old rifle with 180gr ballistic tips. Back when they were $12/box. R-P brass was plentiful and cheap too.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by shootem
...Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights...
That's almost cheating......almost.
There were some younger guys spraying that chidt at the range the other day. I picked up 150 pcs of GFL brass thanks to those guys. Sometimes spraying and praying does have its benefits. After they left, another guy showed up with his ar and he was shooting that Fiocchi stuff. Seemed to shoot well. I asked if that brass was any good to reload and he said "yes it is damn good". I said I just picked up 150 pieces from some kids that were trying to burn out their barrels with it. He was shooting the 40gr vmax through his 8 twist ar and it appeared to like the stuff. He was having some issues with his new Vortex scope though. He asked me if I had ever seen a Vortex that didn't adjust right. I said yes, I have some friends that have had issues with Vortex, I don't buy them. He said he was going to send it back.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Way over thinking. The Blue Collar link has over 3 pages of .223 ammo in stock. Standouts include 40 rounds of Winchester 45 grain sp for $38ish. Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights for about the same. A bunch of other brands to fit any taste. In a house or basic yard I’m reasonably sure any designed to expand will expand and do extensive damage whether fired from a 10” or 16” barrel. Buy & blast for function. Maybe get a linear muzzle device on the chance some of the concussion might actually be diverted forward. It ain’t this hard.
Forward concussion would be a good thing in this instance. Especially from a pistol length barrel. Those are obnoxioulsy loud and the concussion is fierce. Focused downrange on an intruder would be the ticket..
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
...Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights...
That's almost cheating......almost.
I’m just glad I was able to rathole enough components over the years to load my own. This old guy just too cheap to pay over a buck each for squirrel loads. Started loading because .270 Weatherby ammo got up to $25 a box!
Same here. I bought a 300 wby rifle without knowing how much ammo was. Back when everything else was $9.99 (30-06 and 308) a box. 300 WBY ammo was approaching $30/box. After the first couple hundred rounds I loaded on my rockchucker press, the whole supreme kit was paid for.. And yes, I loaded up 200 rounds very shortly after buying that press in the mid 90's. I wore the barrel out on that poor old rifle with 180gr ballistic tips. Back when they were $12/box. R-P brass was plentiful and cheap too.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by shootem
...Fiochi 50 round boxes of Vmax in different weights...
That's almost cheating......almost.
There were some younger guys spraying that chidt at the range the other day. I picked up 150 pcs of GFL brass thanks to those guys. Sometimes spraying and praying does have its benefits. After they left, another guy showed up with his ar and he was shooting that Fiocchi stuff. Seemed to shoot well. I asked if that brass was any good to reload and he said "yes it is damn good". I said I just picked up 150 pieces from some kids that were trying to burn out their barrels with it. He was shooting the 40gr vmax through his 8 twist ar and it appeared to like the stuff. He was having some issues with his new Vortex scope though. He asked me if I had ever seen a Vortex that didn't adjust right. I said yes, I have some friends that have had issues with Vortex, I don't buy them. He said he was going to send it back.
Issues with a Vortex scope that's not a Razor. Once again, not a surprise. One of my favorite 5 star reviews for a Vortex Strike Eagle was from a guy who had it fail on his first shoot, but Vortex sent him out a new one next day air so he didn't miss the entire competition....
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I'd say the Hornady 55 or 60 grain .223 TAP Urban would be a good choice. It's not designed to penetrate barriers and should still expand well out of an SBR. Hornady claims a muzzle velocity of 2650 out of a 10.5 inch rifle for the 55 grain. Whether it will penetrate walls I don't know. I've seen testing that says M193 will not penetrate walls because it tumbles, so the Federal 55 grain XM193, which is relatively cheap, might be worth considering although it's older technology. You definitely want something that expands and doesn't penetrate walls too much.
I'd say the Hornady 55 or 60 grain .223 TAP Urban would be a good choice. It's not designed to penetrate barriers and should still expand well out of an SBR. Hornady claims a muzzle velocity of 2650 out of a 10.5 inch rifle for the 55 grain. Whether it will penetrate walls I don't know. I've seen testing that says M193 will not penetrate walls because it tumbles, so the Federal 55 grain XM193, which is relatively cheap, might be worth considering although it's older technology. You definitely want something that expands and doesn't penetrate walls too much.
M193 shoots through wall, just not as many as 00 buck.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I want to punch through walls. The LAST thing I want is someone to be able to hide from my fire by getting behind two layers of sheetrock!
Trigger discipline, have a plan, shoot to stop.
Given the lack of education in military arms, I suspect the bad guys think a wall will stop a 5.56, which puts them at a tactical disadvantage and me at a tactical advantage.
I love me some tactical advantage.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
I want to punch through walls. The LAST thing I want is someone to be able to hide from my fire by getting behind two layers of sheetrock!
Trigger discipline, have a plan, shoot to stop.
Given the lack of education in military arms, I suspect the bad guys think a wall will stop a 5.56, which puts them at a tactical disadvantage and me at a tactical advantage.
I love me some tactical advantage.
In home defense we all get to choose whether our walls,windows, and doors are very weak cover thats unsafe for cared ones to hide behind or concealment.
Most all CONUS walls, windows, and doors are concealment.
When some one wants to "pie" a corner when the corner is not bullet proof the outcome is stacked very badly against the "pie" guy.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
My old house in Texas had brick on 3 sides, closest neighbors were like 15 ft and that’s a stretch.
This place now, Glaser safety slugs might be the ticket 😆
Dang, nothing here but Wife and i, livestock and vehicles outside, nothing behind me for 25 miles, half mile to the east and west, rural two lane highway 500 yards out front, guess i could mow some bricks if i had too, 7.62 REPR with 150gr etips and 176gr Lehighs.
Hope like hell none of us have to make a damn mess, if the felons leave us be all will remain good.
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
I called Hornady and Guy I talked to said that the Hornady Superformance did in fact have a different Pressure curve than standard ammo and recommended using a rifle gas system or an adjustable Gas Block.
If anyone has an adjustable Gas Block or Key or a system that uses a rifle Length gas system and want this ammo I would do some trading for these boxes of Hornady Superformance .223 75 Grain BTHP for some 55Grain Softpoints(Remington, Winchester.Speer Federal etc.
I would like to do a face to face and I Travel between West Memphis Arkansas through Memphis Tennessee and as far South as Senatobia Mississippi.
2 boxes. Like 40 or 100 rounds. I'd not loose any sleep over it. though thats not enough rounds to figure if its reliable or not. Guess trading it or selling it might not be a bad deal. OTOH bird in hand for rainy days...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
2 boxes of 20 Not a big deal as you say, still I would like to sell or trade if there is someone close to me that Likes the heavier bullet loads.
I am going to run an ad in classifieds and see if anyone wants to buy or trade. If there is fine and if not, I will Just set them back in the closet, as you said no lost sleep!!
If I had any light bullets factory I'd trade you. I haven't bought factory in years and haven't bought a bullet under 68 in a long time until the last few years with some light TTSX and th 40 vmax due to too many people moving to the country and messing things up. But I digress. We should have had 2000 acres and it would be a bit better. LOL
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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