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Additions, subtractions, alterations, interpretations, translations, corrections, and then more additions, subtractions, alterations, interpretations, translations, corrections, etc., for century after century.


God: “I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”


Bruce

Just some elements is not enough. The event as described clearly did not happen. All the tribes on Earth did not see the event. Jesus did not return in power and glory to judge all mankind.....these are the most crucial details

That's just a crystal clear, primary part that failed to be true, I would've thought.

That is what is portrayed of him.

I consider the reality and the historicity…the humanity…of those who wrote the original Christian documents, those who were eyewitnesses and closest to Jesus. Wavering and impulsive and cowardly Peter who followed, then unfollowed, then followed again after the resurrection, even preaching in the streets of Jerusalem. Can one imagine their own brother convincing them that he was the son of God…? James was convinced of that, and that itself is convincing. Paul was a persecutor of Christians and a Jewish wreckin’ machine of their faith, but he became a follower of Jesus himself. And John saw inhumanity and cruelty over his long life that is unimaginable to many of us, but was still convinced that God is love.

Different people who wrote separate and independent accounts of what they saw and experienced. They weren’t writing the Bible, they were simply documenting the events that were happening in each of their lives.

?? Has anyone in this discussion besides me changed how they think about this subject?

A long time ago, one iron blade was used to sharpen another blade until both of em’ became more effective tools. I get a lot outta these discussions, especially from those whose opinions and beliefs are different than mine.

Sort of like, I've read that a football coach said, he learned more from being with losing programs, than winning teams.

Sort of like, I've read that a football coach said, he learned more from being with losing programs, than winning teams.

Don't want to read endless pages, does anyone have the Cliff Notes on this discussion? Where are we?

What do you mean by "original" Christian Documents?
The 4 canonical gospels are all amanous. We don't know who wrote them, and have no good reason to believe they were written by eye witnesses.
The earliest canonical books in the NT were written by Paul, who again, was not any eye witness.

Perhaps we should take this on in small bites.

Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:2 ….referring to the temple....

“Do you see all these things? He asked. ‘Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

So, to start with, did this in fact happen and did in fact that “generation” see it come to pass?

A simple yes or no on your part will be sufficient.



Note: I have a full schedule today and may not be back till late this evening or even tomorrow. If you respond, I will answer but it will not be right away.

TF,
Have a safe day keeping your community healthy. The conversation will keep until tonight.

So many posts, so many nuts..

My perspective is that the core faith of Christianity can stand on its own two nail-scarred and resurrected feet. If we lost the Old Testament or it had so many holes poked in it that nobody could take it seriously anymore — that does nothing to diminish Jesus. At all.

The fact that He predicted the destruction of the Jewish Temple, and it happened exactly as He predicted, is pretty remarkable. And then there’s the prediction of the resurrection, and then there’s the eyewitness accounts of it, and then there’s the incomprehensible and explosive growth of the early core faith of Christianity. And even the agnostic/atheist scholar Bart Ehrman admits that…minus the fact of an explosive growth early in the life of the core Christian faith…there’s no way to get the 3.5 million followers of Jesus that there were by the fourth century. Somethin’ about their message was alluring and attractive, and convincing.

Dawkins and Ehrman and Harris can dance around that all they want to because the historicity and reality of the core faith of Christianity is uncomfortable for them. There clearly was something way outside of the norm happening here. The core faith of being a Jesus follower doesn’t hang by a thread like the parting and crossing of the Red Sea or the six-day creation of the universe. If it’s scientifically impossible for Noah to have accomplished what he did with the ark, or for Jonah to have spent three days and nights in the belly of a great fish, that does nothing…zero…to diminish the core faith of Christianity. It’s founded on something much larger and more important than all of that.

It hasn't changed. Like a soap opera, you can miss a month and pick right back up where you left off.

A. God exists.
B. The original New Testament documents are reliable accounts of what actually happened.
C. Jesus rose from the dead.

All of these claims remain unsupported by any good evidence.

X2
👍👍👍

Right where we started