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I have a dry fire routine and had co-witnessed sights on the Glock but going back and forth didn’t work. I figured I needed to go all irons or all dots. Irons won for now.

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Originally Posted by Beoceorl
Originally Posted by pullit
I have a pistol or two that are cut for red dots and has the filler plates in the cuts. I am not ready for a red dot yet but I could see it at some point if my eyes get worse. I have played with one of my guns that does have a red dot on it and I am for sure slower on the first shot because of trying to find the dot.
I think the only way I would get better is to put everything else away and only shoot the red dot. Going back and forth between sights and red dots does not help me get better with the red dot. I would have to force myself to learn it.


Are your irons cowitnessed with your red dot? Mine are, and I find that switching back and forth between red dot and non-red dot equipped pistols actually helps me pick up the dot quicker.


No they are not. The pistol came with standard height sights (which now that I think about it, does not make a lot of since as it was cut for an RMR) so I would have to get new sights. I will check into that, thanks for pointing out the cowitness thing I missed that completely.

Last edited by pullit; 01/21/22.

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Originally Posted by David_Walter
I have friends with RMR or Holosun sights on their Glocks.

Have any of you done this?

Which red dot for a Glock 19?


I have carried 3 pistols with red dots installed: A Sig P365XL w/ a Holosun 507K, a Glock 19 MOS with a Vortex Venom, and a Sig P320 AXG with a Leupold DeltaPoint Pro.

I got rid of the G19 in favor of the Sig P320 primarily because I dislike Glock's MOS system. (It's not what you asked about, but MOS guns are known for shearing off screws (which happened to me), because their adaptor plates don't fit snugly and also warp easily.) The Vortex Venom currently sits in a drawer, because of my concerns about the unit's durability. Mine has withstood a few thousand rounds without issue, but it seems that a good number of others have not been so fortunate. I think Vortex remains a solid choice for range guns, but until their reputation for durability improves, use something else on your EDC.

I still have, and carry, the Sig P365XL with the Holosun 507 K. I love the gun and I love the optic. The Holosun 507K is pretty much the industry standard for that pistol. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard of somebody having a different optic installed on it.

My Sig P320 AXG is still rather new to me. It only has +/-350 rounds through it. I like the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. The glass is very clear. The Leupold has a smidge of blue/green tint to it that you don't see on the Holosun, but I mean a miniscule amount, and it does not affect my shooting in any way. The DeltaPoint's single button that is poorly located is the worst feature about it. Others who carry their gun all day have pointed out that when the Leupold is not allowed to go into its sleep mode, battery life is significantly worse than other manufacturers' offerings. I only carry mine through the parking lot twice per day so I cannot comment on battery life.

As to your situation specifically, do it. As our esteemed colleague, Bluedreaux, said, "Red dots are not the future; they are the now." This is especially true for those of us who can't see iron sights. Red dots are amazing and very easy to use. Anyone who says that they can't find the red dot when they bring up the gun hasn't had the 60 second class on how to solve that issue. Also, if the red dot fails, just use your irons--a failing red dot is not a handicap to shooting old school. Here's a pic of me sorting out my iron-sight picture (through the windshield of my Leupold). Granted it's not great shooting, but it will save my life. Plus, I don't shoot any gun with irons much better than that anymore--especially at speed.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

As with so much else in the shooting world, the biggest barrier is cost. Cost is what held me back for a time--I didn't want to buy the wrong gun and/or the wrong optic. I feared that I would end up with a $1250 gun/optic package (plus holster and extra mags) and end up with the "wrong" stuff. That's largely why I initially went with the Glock MOS--it allowed me to try different optics on a gun that would be easy to resell--which is exactly what I did. Just do your research and make the best decision you can based upon best available information. (Just like we did in the Army).

You might want to check out this guy's videos. https://www.youtube.com/user/SageDynamics/videos . He's kind of your stereotypical know-it-all gun guy, but he does do some thorough duty-testing and torture-testing of a lot of red dots.

Good luck in your decisions!


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Waders is spot on. If you have iron sights aligned then the Dot is visible



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Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by Beoceorl
Originally Posted by pullit
I have a pistol or two that are cut for red dots and has the filler plates in the cuts. I am not ready for a red dot yet but I could see it at some point if my eyes get worse. I have played with one of my guns that does have a red dot on it and I am for sure slower on the first shot because of trying to find the dot.
I think the only way I would get better is to put everything else away and only shoot the red dot. Going back and forth between sights and red dots does not help me get better with the red dot. I would have to force myself to learn it.


Are your irons cowitnessed with your red dot? Mine are, and I find that switching back and forth between red dot and non-red dot equipped pistols actually helps me pick up the dot quicker.


No they are not. The pistol came with standard height sights (which now that I think about it, does not make a lot of since as it was cut for an RMR) so I would have to get new sights. I will check into that, thanks for pointing out the cowitness thing I missed that completely.



The Holsun 507K has a rear sight on it that you can use



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Originally Posted by jwp475
The Holsun 507K has a rear sight on it that you can use



Yes. The body of the Holosun has a built-in rear sight. I've shot with mine and it is perfectly zeroed for me. I don't know how it works for others, but for me it's easily "good enough."


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Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by Beoceorl
Originally Posted by pullit
I have a pistol or two that are cut for red dots and has the filler plates in the cuts. I am not ready for a red dot yet but I could see it at some point if my eyes get worse. I have played with one of my guns that does have a red dot on it and I am for sure slower on the first shot because of trying to find the dot.
I think the only way I would get better is to put everything else away and only shoot the red dot. Going back and forth between sights and red dots does not help me get better with the red dot. I would have to force myself to learn it.


Are your irons cowitnessed with your red dot? Mine are, and I find that switching back and forth between red dot and non-red dot equipped pistols actually helps me pick up the dot quicker.


No they are not. The pistol came with standard height sights (which now that I think about it, does not make a lot of since as it was cut for an RMR) so I would have to get new sights. I will check into that, thanks for pointing out the cowitness thing I missed that completely.


Yes, even when the slide is cut for the dot sight you will still need suppressor height sights.

With the proper cowitness you don't end up looking for the dot. You pick up your front (or rear) sight, start to line up like normal, and the dot just appears. Then you forget about the irons, and transition to the dot. With a little dry fire practice the transition becomes very natural, and very quick.


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“With the proper cowitness you don't end up looking for the dot. You pick up your front (or rear) sight, start to line up like normal, and the dot just appears. Then you forget about the irons, and transition to the dot. With a little dry fire practice the transition becomes very natural, and very quick.“

I have to disagree with this and please don’t take it as arguing, just discussion. if you’re focusing on your irons, you might as well be using them. Iron sights, you focus on the front sight, red dots you focus on the target. That’s the whole point of a red dot, to be looking at the target and the dot is already there.

That’s where my rub comes in. I shoot a red dot and I can get pretty quick with it. Then switch to irons only and my whole focus has to shift back to the front sight. If I didn’t carry, shoot and enjoy a dozen other pistols, I’d stick with a red dot. It is the better way.

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Originally Posted by TWR

I have to disagree with this and please don’t take it as arguing, just discussion. if you’re focusing on your irons, you might as well be using them. Iron sights, you focus on the front sight, red dots you focus on the target. That’s the whole point of a red dot, to be looking at the target and the dot is already there.
.


My take is that the sight picture for irons tells you more about what you need to do to get it aligned, for longer, as you finalize the alignment before pulling the trigger, whereas the dot just seems to a greater extent to either be there or not. Whether this is an optical illusion, or not, I think this is a hump people have to get over for the dot. I'm not completely over it yet.

It's easy to say, if you line up the sights, the dot will be right there, because it's true, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Or at least people (myself included) don't perceive it as such in practice.

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Only red dots I have are on my hunting handguns. A 41 Mag Ruger Redhawk 7-1/2" with an UltraDot UD30 and a JPoint on a Glock G40. I just got the G40 and haven't shot it yet, but liking the JPoint and it's has great reviews. My EDC is iron sights only.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Originally Posted by David_Walter
Range and carry guns. Glock 19 Gen 3 and a Sig 365XL.


For the P365XL, I think that you are going to be limited to Holosun, Sig Romeo and, maybe RMSc if you want to use the integral cutout on the gun without any additional modifications and/or adapters. The Holosun models appear to be the best according to forum-land. The Sig version doesn't really get good reviews. I have 507K-X2s on a P365 and P365XL, and they are doing well. However, there are some nuances to consider that I wish I had known before buying.

The 507K allows switching between 3 reticle choices, which are circle + dot, circle only, and dot only. The dot is a 2 MOA dot, which is rather small. When using the dot only, in order to see it in bright daylight conditions, you have to turn it up and bloom the dot. This works during the day, but it really creates glare in low light when leaving it on the day setting. If you like the circle + dot or circle only, there is no need to bloom the dot and it works out ok. The problem is that I have learned that circle + dot and circle only are too busy for me, especially when shooting smaller targets. I like the dot only. Another problem is that the placement of the + and - buttons on the optic, which turn it on and off when pressed simultaneously, has resulted in my turning the dot off while racking the slide with my fingers on the buttons. This has caused me to use the lock-out feature to prevent that from happening. This makes it more difficult to change dot settings on the fly.

Holosun also makes a 407K, which is a 6 MOA dot only. If you want to use the dot only, you get a bigger dot without having to bloom it. It is about $100 cheaper. I also understand that there is a green dot version of this sight that brings up the cost a bit more.

You may want to settle on a preferred reticle and/or dot size before buying.

As for the rudimentary backup sights on the 507K/407K, you just have to learn the proper sight picture. For me, the shallow "backup" rear sight does not allow me to use a traditional sight picture on either gun.

YMMV.


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Originally Posted by Beoceorl
Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by Beoceorl
Originally Posted by pullit
I have a pistol or two that are cut for red dots and has the filler plates in the cuts. I am not ready for a red dot yet but I could see it at some point if my eyes get worse. I have played with one of my guns that does have a red dot on it and I am for sure slower on the first shot because of trying to find the dot.
I think the only way I would get better is to put everything else away and only shoot the red dot. Going back and forth between sights and red dots does not help me get better with the red dot. I would have to force myself to learn it.


Are your irons cowitnessed with your red dot? Mine are, and I find that switching back and forth between red dot and non-red dot equipped pistols actually helps me pick up the dot quicker.


No they are not. The pistol came with standard height sights (which now that I think about it, does not make a lot of since as it was cut for an RMR) so I would have to get new sights. I will check into that, thanks for pointing out the cowitness thing I missed that completely.


Yes, even when the slide is cut for the dot sight you will still need suppressor height sights.

With the proper cowitness you don't end up looking for the dot. You pick up your front (or rear) sight, start to line up like normal, and the dot just appears. Then you forget about the irons, and transition to the dot. With a little dry fire practice the transition becomes very natural, and very quick.


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Lesson learned personally ...

Not being able to “find” the dot fast is a function of the mechanics of your draw/presentation .

There are many credible trainers that teach “red dot specific” methods of presentation , the ironic thing is the method that works for fast red dot usage , is also fast with irons, so probably the correct way of doing it from the start .


Threat focused shooting is a huge win . That’s how our physiology works , and iron sights have always had to be learned , because sight focused is in conflict with what’s natural . Humans have adapted to it extremely well though .


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
To me, putting an electronic device on a handgun is next to sacrilege.


On a carry gun I agree. The only thing I could see as advantageous would be a light.


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Originally Posted by muleshoe
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
To me, putting an electronic device on a handgun is next to sacrilege.


On a carry gun I agree. The only thing I could see as advantageous would be a light.


So you 2 think that being able to shoot more accurate and faster is a negative



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I prefer irons in the very bottom of the window, lower than a traditional 1/3 AR mount. There’s no sense in buying large, clear glass and then filling it up with iron sights you aren’t using anyway.

As someone else said, an MRDS specific presentation helps a lot to reliably find the dot.

And I also prefer a larger dot that doesn’t need to be bloomed in the daytime. 6MOA isn’t too big for handgun shooting.

The ACRO P2 is good, probably the best option for a hard use optic.

Buying Holosun is just paying for the Chinese military’s R&D.


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When I was a young man, I was a solid 298-299 out of 300 shooter. Now that I'm an old man (62 soon), and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, an optic is the way to go. Optics on carry pistols are the wave of the future. Like it or not. JMHO

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Primary arms has the acss vulcan reticle w big 100.moa circle. When chevron centered the outer circle not visible.
But if you are off, you can see a section of the circle and know where to move to get the center/ chevron.

Shooting from varied positions this could be quite useful.

Mrgunsngear did a YT vid on it.

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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by David_Walter
Range and carry guns. Glock 19 Gen 3 and a Sig 365XL.


For the P365XL, I think that you are going to be limited to Holosun, Sig Romeo and, maybe RMSc if you want to use the integral cutout on the gun without any additional modifications and/or adapters. The Holosun models appear to be the best according to forum-land. The Sig version doesn't really get good reviews. I have 507K-X2s on a P365 and P365XL, and they are doing well. However, there are some nuances to consider that I wish I had known before buying.

The 507K allows switching between 3 reticle choices, which are circle + dot, circle only, and dot only. The dot is a 2 MOA dot, which is rather small. When using the dot only, in order to see it in bright daylight conditions, you have to turn it up and bloom the dot. This works during the day, but it really creates glare in low light when leaving it on the day setting. If you like the circle + dot or circle only, there is no need to bloom the dot and it works out ok. The problem is that I have learned that circle + dot and circle only are too busy for me, especially when shooting smaller targets. I like the dot only. Another problem is that the placement of the + and - buttons on the optic, which turn it on and off when pressed simultaneously, has resulted in my turning the dot off while racking the slide with my fingers on the buttons. This has caused me to use the lock-out feature to prevent that from happening. This makes it more difficult to change dot settings on the fly.

Holosun also makes a 407K, which is a 6 MOA dot only. If you want to use the dot only, you get a bigger dot without having to bloom it. It is about $100 cheaper. I also understand that there is a green dot version of this sight that brings up the cost a bit more.

You may want to settle on a preferred reticle and/or dot size before buying.

As for the rudimentary backup sights on the 507K/407K, you just have to learn the proper sight picture. For me, the shallow "backup" rear sight does not allow me to use a traditional sight picture on either gun.

YMMV.



What is a traditional sight picture?



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Originally Posted by jmd025
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
To me, putting an electronic device on a handgun is next to sacrilege.

https://youtu.be/ta41xU-tkFA



Some say the future is now. Some seemed to be confused regarding the future. This was announced at Shot Show 22;

https://www.guns.com/news/2022/01/20/new-at-shot-heritage-boot-and-tactical-cowboy


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