Gentlemen, I have a male DD who scored 70 on his VJP and is a delight to live and hunt with. He has pointed and/or retrieved dove, quail, woodcock, chukar, three species of grouse, pheasant, ducks, geese and turkeys all over the country, as well as blood tracked multiple deer. I like him so much that I decided I want a pup out of him, so I just found a 9 month old NAVHDA registered GWP bitch pup who is also an absolute sweetheart. She had been in a kennel her whole life, zero training, and retrieved a duck on the water the first time I took her hunting. Gonna take her to a NAVHDA natural ability trial in April. Just registered my VDD male with NAVHDA, as well, so their litter would be papered and both parents will have performance records. If pups became available around September of 2023, is anyone in the market for a dog? If so, I can post pictures, pedigrees, etc. here in the meantime. Thank you very much.
Last edited by MonkeyWrench; 02/04/22. Reason: typo
To me, Utility Test scores of the parents are much more relevant than Natural Abilty in regards to evaluating a pup's potential. The NA tests are pretty basic and though a pup that earns a Prize can make a satisfying gun dog for most, I look for more from the parents when picking a pup.
The same goes for the VJP, it does a good job of giving an evaluation of a pup's potential but I would like to see the VGP results of the parents to better judge their offspring. The HZP would be acceptable but it is time dependent which can be difficult for handlers to make. BTDT.
I not only want to know the final result of the tests but also the score sheets themselves. A dog is scored in various categories and I want to know if a high score in one category carried a lower score in a different one. On the same token, a passing score in a given category but I might want a higher one in that one. As an example, I might want a 4 in track but will accept a 3 in point as finding a cripple is more important than style. The judges notes are also helpful in that the notes describe the judges' reasoning for the score. It can give an inkling whether a score is the result of a training rather than dog issue or if it appears to the judge to be an outside influence such as weather.
Those are some of what I want to see from the seller when looking at a pup that I have no other knowledge of. Unless I personally know the owner(s) and their dogs, taking someone else's word as to what is "good" or "bad" is pretty subjective with testing being the only option. My first wirehair, bought out of a newspaper ad, was "pretty good" in my eyes but I learned differently when I started her in NAVHDA tests. Much was poor training but she lacked some abilities through her unproven bloodline. She did not show her weaknesses until I ran her in her first UPT.
Thanks, WM. Gary Hodson offered to buy the male at his VJP. I can post his ahnentafel, of course, and am considering a Utility Test for him this fall. Will keep you posted if you like. Cheers
If you were selling the male the ahnentafel and his VJP scores might be enough to make me take a chance on him providing other factors were satisfactory.
But you are looking for interest in future pups, not in selling your male. For a sire I like to see a broader and more in depth of its abilities than just a "puppy" test and some hunting experience. The same goes for the dam, in this case there is absolutely no evidence of her abilities other than her retrieving a duck one time. She would be the deal breaker because of this.
One is placing a bet when they purchase a pup so it behooves the buyer to gather as much information as possible. The same goes for the seller if they wish to produce the best possible pups. I'm willing to pay more for pups who's parents (and other anscestors) have some means of measure. If there is no yardstick to measure against I am too leery to take the chance. After the purchase, the cost of the dog is the same regardless of the bloodlines. If I am going to put out that kind of money I want to place the odds as much in my favor of getting a dog to meet my standards as I can. To do so there needs to be some sort of established benchmark to compare to.
This is not an indictment on you and your plans to breed your dogs, just a response on what I would like to see to be interested. Some are more picky, many less and one needs to decide what level they wish to meet.
The Dam is 9 months old...More than a little time for her to prove herself. Doubtful she will be able to do that between April and September. 2 months of which she will be pregnant.
A natural ability trial is a mostly "Lets not hurt anyone's feelings" test.
I would advise a friend-and you also-to avoid that mating until she does.
I am wondering if anyone is in the market for DD/GWP pups in a year and a half, because I suspect that I might have a litter then. Nothing in is written in stone yet, but in the event that I do have pups, I want them to go to good hunting homes. I am not in the puppy mill business.
Battue, the female wouldn't be bred until spring 2023, if she performs as hoped for the entire duration of the upcoming hunting season. As I stated at the outset, I can share pedigrees and videos of the dogs working between now and then.
WM, would a NAVHDA registered litter from a dam with a NA prize not have any increased demand over an unpapered backyard breeding? How much impact would the male doing a UT have (I believe that he would do very well)?
I am wondering if anyone is in the market for DD/GWP pups in a year and a half, because I suspect that I might have a litter then. Nothing in is written in stone yet, but in the event that I do have pups, I want them to go to good hunting homes. I am not in the puppy mill business.
Battue, the female wouldn't be bred until spring 2023, if she performs as hoped for the entire duration of the upcoming hunting season. As I stated at the outset, I can share pedigrees and videos of the dogs working between now and then.
WM, would a NAVHDA registered litter from a dam with a NA prize not have any increased demand over an unpapered backyard breeding? How much impact would the male doing a UT have (I believe that he would do very well)?
Sincere questions. Thanks to you both.
I would possibly be interested....keep me up-to-date as things progress.....bob
I am wondering if anyone is in the market for DD/GWP pups in a year and a half, because I suspect that I might have a litter then. Nothing in is written in stone yet, but in the event that I do have pups, I want them to go to good hunting homes. I am not in the puppy mill business.
Battue, the female wouldn't be bred until spring 2023, if she performs as hoped for the entire duration of the upcoming hunting season. As I stated at the outset, I can share pedigrees and videos of the dogs working between now and then.
WM, would a NAVHDA registered litter from a dam with a NA prize not have any increased demand over an unpapered backyard breeding? How much impact would the male doing a UT have (I believe that he would do very well)?
Sincere questions. Thanks to you both.
The way I look at your question is several fold.
First, a registered dog just means there is an official, recognized organization which keeps the pedigree records of that dog. It's significant purpose is to be able to identify the parents, grandparents, et al. of a particular dog. Any awards, titles, prizes, etc earned by the dog in question may or may not be recorded by the particular organization depending on their rules. By this, a NAVHDA registration would be of importance only so far as to tell the pup's lineage, if any of the anscestors had been tested, and what prizes/scores the anscestors earned. The number of anscestors and the awards they earned would then determine if I wanted to take a chance on any of the pups. An NA alone, no matter the level, would not be much better than nothing at all but that is not much of an endorsement.
A UT would be good, especially a Prize I. If only one of the parents had earned a prize at this level then I would pass on the litter as the untested parent is a total unknown. It would be like buying a car by looking at just the one side. One is placing a lot of trust in just one part of the item as one side might be show room perfect while the other side is all dented, rusty, and missing the trim. And that does not begin to mention the rest of the vehicle.
The only way I could be interested in a pup that had an untested parent would be if the breeder/owner was someone I knew or had been recommended to me by someone who has knowledge of the breeder such as an experienced judge or competitor/breeder/trainer that I trust explicitly. With such a background, the breeder would have a background in testing with multiple dogs having done well in the past so they have an idea of what that particular dog is capable of. And, there would need to be a good explanation why the one parent hadn't been tested.
I am picky on what I look for as one is guessing at the pup's potential. All the buyer has to go off of is what the parents have been able to prove. If the one has next to nothing proven, then the potential is suspect. A base cost to just bring a pup to 8 weeks is going to be in the $800-$1000 range so anything above that one is paying for greater potential. For pups with proven lines on both sides commonly running $1200-$1700 I'll pay the little extra for the pup from proven lines.
I am kind of a stickler when it comes to breeding animals. I feel one should do their best to improve the breed with every litter. To do so one needs some sort of objective standard to measure against and right now testing and trialing are it. I gnash my teeth as one of my granddaughters is jumping in to breeding Labs thinking she can make a living out of it. Her breeding plan seems to put out chocolate, yellow, and "fox" pups thinking that is all that is needed. Nothing about conformation, health, mental stability, or ability other than turning kibble into waste crosses her mind. I'm glad I have pointing dogs, she doesn't push me to get one of hers.
I am new to this forum and was immediately curious why there was so much acrimony evident on it. I feel as though I am beginning to understand.
I know what a 'registry' is, and to my mind it is to provide 'picky sticklers' with a 'pedigree,' or record of the 'ancestry' of a given litter and their 'awards.' In doing so, it minimizes the margin for error when 'guessing on a pup's potential.' If we were only concerned with what the 'parents had proven,' as opposed to say the 'grandparents, et al.,' there wouldn't be much need for them, now would there?
I was hoping to see if anyone was interested in a potential future litter, and what I can do between now and its possible arrival to optimize outcomes for all involved (e.g., "Run the dam in a UT first, if you think she's got the right stuff," or, "Post test results/pedigrees/photos/videos.").
Instead, I guess I'll just go back to the trailer park and continue my callous irresponsibility.
You asked a question that dedicated hunting Dog individuals, had valid reasons to answer in the way they did. They give considerable consideration of mating before choosing a pup.
If you think anyone who has been around good Birddogs for any length of time doesn’t, then you are the one that needs to be brought up to speed. You want another Dog and are willing to go against the odds, while expecting others to do the same.
Your above reply was the first to display any negative attitude.
And Wild Birds, and lots of them make a Dog. NAVHDA trials for the most part are artificial attempts that fall far short of the major trials or real wild Birds.
Know one that had his Master Hunter ribbon. Never did point a Ruffed Grouse.
Fact is, you didn’t get the answer you wanted, and found that reason to take offense.
The question I asked was if anybody was looking for a DD-bred pup with NAVHDA papers in September 2023. Pertinent answers include "Yes, Maybe, and Depends.' I could surmise a 'No' from your silence, which would have been preferable to the irrelevant, incoherent, pedantic condescension you offered, (e.g. Should I include 'lots of wild birds' with each pup?).
Comparing me to an opportunistic backyard breeder of color-phase pets has nothing to do with the subject of my post or the reality of my decades of professional experience in vet clinics and kennels. I found that to be offensive, for the record.
I didn't ask anybody for their blessing on this breeding. I have hunted my male on wild birds all over the country for many years and know that I want a pup out of him. Several of my hunting companions concur, but that would still leave several pups needing a good hunting home.
Should the female pan out and the breeding occur, I will post a classified ad at the appropriate juncture.
Sincere thanks for the warning regarding NAVHDA trials, and please note that I left your daughter and her pedigree out of this. I really don't wish to cyber feud with anyone.
“Yes, maybe and depends” are all replies you wanted to hear. Critical replies, on the other hand, were reason to think the forum is comprised of a grouping of bitter individuals who wish only to be abrasive.
And if by chance you are a licensed Vet, rather than one who works for one, then perhaps you should brush up on the “mating of animals with specific traits, with the desire to enhance those traits in the next generation(s).” Either way, it would be wise to do so, when asking others to “yes, maybe or depend”.
Interjecting a wise ass comment about my Daughter, is enough to show I’m dealing with a low life who I should have originally ignored as such.
If ever I decide to no longer participate on the fire, it will be because of back stabbing, bulllshiiting, little pricks like you. For the record...
Sorry about the delayed response; my horse isn't as fast as Secretariat, and since the only rationale for animal husbandry is 'improving the breed,' I was preoccupied with putting him down. And every other thoroughbred foaled since 1973...
If I posted an ad for a Chevy, and someone went to great lengths to convince me that only Dodges are worth driving, I would feel justified in pointing out that their post was unresponsive.
I did ace Ag Genetics in college, and was actually hired by the professor upon graduation. Not a vet. Are you?
I didn't bring up your daughter or offer personal insults; you did.
My dog went 110 points and Prize 1 in Cedar Fort on 4/8, so I don't think I'll have any trouble finding good homes for her puppies.
If by 'participate,' you mean interject uninvited and unjustified sanctimony into conversations that don't involve you, then by all means please feel free to cease tout de suite.
You're welcome to admit that you were wrong and apologize any time...
Upon review it was WM who brought up his granddaughter's foray into dog breeding and compared it to mine. I see now why you reacted the way you did. As it was an error on my part, I take it back.
WM also said, with regards to objectively measuring performance, "To do so one needs some sort of objective standard to measure against and right now testing and trialing are it." You, on the other hand, opined that "NAVHDA trials for the most part are artificial attempts that fall far short of the major trials or real wild Birds."
Having run one dog each in both the VJP and NA trials, I am curious what you think the difference is between them. Assuming that the former constitutes a 'major' trial.
The first two are little more than individual tests. A decent trainer could most likely train a Boxer to pass the tests. The other is Dog against Dog and it cumulates at the National Championship on Wild Birds. Spruce your boys up and have them qualify for the National and you will have something to brag on.
Subjective tests mostly on pen Birds vs competition eventually on the real thing is the difference..Minor leagues vs going to The Show....
There is a place for both, but one is where the best blood comes from for Pointing breeds. They have the same for Flushers and Retrievers...A National were the test is the best of the best go against each other.
One can have a great field Dog, however if one is going to brag on titles this is where they are.....I have a English Cocker that works for myself...Place him against the Dogs that come close to qualifying at the big trials and he would be out the first run. He may have some title in his lineage, but it wasn't against the big boys and girls. Me bragging on it, would be BS.Wild Birds make a hunting Dog...Give me a choice and I'll take a pup out of a breeding that has been into a great quantity of Wild Birds and did well. I wouldn't worry about the absence of titles on the papers. However, the parents would have proved themselves on the real thing and not a contrived NAVHD test.
Then again, and unknown 80-1 shot just won the Kentucky Derby. However, that is the exception to the rule.
On the human level, I could take the test and have a level 3 Sporting Clay instructor title...However, I wouldn't be able to compete with the big boys.
Addition: Have a Bud whose GSP had his Master ribbon on which ever gives that reward. The Dog never went hunting,,,,he just took tests...
Addition: Another example of a title meaning little. Went to watch the Pa Grouse Championship in Marienville. Birds were down and everyone knew it. The Dog that won the title pointed one Bird. The others none. However, when it comes to selling and breeding....He or she will be bragged up as winning the Pa Grouse Championship They did run in twos. I guess one of them got runner up....based on style.:)
Addition 3: You wanted me to apologize...but when the error was yours I got a "I take it back." Why am I not surprised????
Some excellent Cocker work with a couple hard retrieves....Even the Queen showed up for the event!!!!
nice work. but not wild birds
I think the true test is on heavily pressured birds like roosters and chukars, sharpies, huns on public land. I think pressured public roosters are the ultimate test for a bird dog. But that's just my opinion .
I ve seen roosters back track run and hide under hunter's vehicles, run and hide in abandoned buildings, Ive seen roosters swim across small bodies of water to hide in cover. Ive seen them run and hide in badger holes, coyote dens. And I ve seen public roosters so dug in I had to put down gun and dig them out of thick grass to get them to move.
Ribka, Last I knew the Birds used at the Ames Plantation came from some of the plantations around Thomasville, Ga. Which is an area with a few plantations that have all Wild.
Friend has been invited to ride along during the Nationals. His opinion is if they are not truly Wild, they are the next best thing.
Have had the opportunity to hunt one of the all Wild plantations. It is not a commercial operation. Hunting is by invitation and 5-10 hunters per week would be the max. It was an advantage of dating the owners Daughter. 👍🏻One difference I did notice different from the video was most coveys there had 20 plus Birds come up. And each 2000 acre section was hunted one day per week max.
I’ve found SD public land Roosters to often enough break the rules. Some you can’t get close to, but enough others hold tight depending on the cover and time of the year.
There is a fire poster here that kills his limit most days on Wild Roosters… and he hunts most of the season.
