Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Muzzleloader for out to 300 yards

My son wants to get a muzzleloader
He wants an inline 50 caliber that is accurate enough to shoot out to 300 yards. I've been out of the game for many years and have no idea what models to consider. Any suggestions.

There are some magnums that take150 gr of powder, but a stout heavy bullet is pretty punishing at both ends. I'd advise him to look at the the ballistics of a 50 cal even past 200 before deciding.

45 better?

With a 50 you can shoot a sabot/bullet combination that gives decent downrange ballistics. Some have pointed tips and decent BC. Blackhorn 209 gives good power.

I used a CVA Optima V2 stainless in 50 cal with the above set up to take a 25 inch mule deer at a bit over 250 yds in 2020. The scope I used has capability to dial yardage. The rifle and load combination shoots 1 inch groups at 100, and 3 inch groups at 250. That is as far as I actually shot the rifle on paper, but I have no doubt it would still group well at 300.

The Barnes 300 grain bullet I used hit the buck midribs onside, angled forward and exiting just behind the offside shoulder. (I wanted to break the offside shoulder but missed by a inch or so.) The bullet left a 2 inch exit hole in the offside hide, and similar sized holes in both lungs.

In short, that rifle and load combination would be capable to 300 yds, like everything else, if the bullet is properly placed. I did practice quite a bit before the hunt with this combo.

Manny

I have a Remington Ultimate ML. Using 100 grains by Weight of BH209 pushes a Parker BlackMax 300 to 2200 pretty easily. I’d have no qualms taking it past 300 myself.

Not sure if you can find them but they are very accurate rifles and Parkers or similar bullets will get you to 300 with the right optics.

CVA paramount if you want an out of the box shooter.

Knight has some videos showing their rifles getting stretched out, but I consider it a stunt. Even with the pointy ones, the trajectory has got to be getting pretty steep and wind drift considerable. Fun to play with for certain.

In my opinion - yes, unless the targeted game has a minimum caliber requirement, or you can’t use a sabot.



The Knight will drop a .50 caliber bullet quite a bit after 150 yards - it’s a definable curve, but you’d definitely need range time to dope it out. We can get around some of the drop with a sabot and .452 caliber bullet, but trying to overdrive the sabot generally results in a loss of optimal accuracy.

If he’s serious - a Savage or Remington smokeless build would probably be his best route. The CVA Paramount is the easy button right now - but I can’t personally comment on one - haven’t used it. The reviews seem to be full love or total hate - not seeing much middle ground.

If you want to see some stupidly accurate long range shooting - look up “IdahoLewis” (sp?) on the Modern Muzzleloader forum - he’s made a science of long range shooting with a muzzleloader.

Targets at 300 or critters?

Desert mule deer

I would be worried about energy out that far, Dennis. I'm not up on the inlines, maybe they produce the velocity to carry enough.

300 yards is a poke.

Pretty long shot for a lot of modern rifle shooters.

Definitely a long shot by muzzleloader hunting standards.

Not saying it can't be done, I know better.
Just, that he needs to understand what that entails.

Have shot my Omega a fair bit.
Consider 200 yards a long shot, doable.
Would, but only under certain conditions.
JMHO.

FWIW

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/cva-paramount/

Pretty sure they would be very good out to 400 yards or so. I have been looking at them for 2 years and that would be the one to buy. I am not sure I am using the 280 grain powerbelt or just go to a sized bullet . I would use it for late season Iowa whitetails.

Any muzzleloader in hammer style will do that 45 50 or 54 even 58

Check out Hankins custom muzzleloaders https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muzzleloaders/ Scroll down to the muzzleloaders. He converted a TC Pro Hunter 45 70 into a smokeless powder muzzleloader for me. It shoots 275 gr parkers .75 moa. @ 100 yds.

Wifes cousin has a custom smokeless shooting the.parker bullets that he has killed a couple of elk at close to 400. It is comparable to a 375 H&H. He paid about 3K for the bare rifle.

Wifes cousin has a custom smokeless shooting the.parker bullets that he has killed a couple of elk at close to 400. It is comparable to a 375 H&H. He paid about 3K for the bare rifle.

Hankins also offers converted CVA’s that are rated for smokeless. Cheapest way to get into smokeless or a gun that can take stiff loads of BH209 if need be and have a super reliable ignition system that doesn’t leak.

Smokeless guns are very capable IF they are legal where you hunt.

I took an Antelope in Colorado during rifle season with my smokeless gun @ 733 yds
.45 caliber, Hankins ignition, 303 Pittman Hard Core @ 2920 FPS

I took a doe Antelope @ 896 with my .40 cal gun but it's a big boomer.

I’d check out a ballistic calculator. I ended up building a SML 45 cal. And it hits like a hammer.

Dang, I was thinking 300 was really far...

With conventional MZ equipment - it is - for most of the production mainstream MZ gear with the average hunter / shooter.

If you're willing to jump into the deep end with a custom or smokeless - not so much, but get your checkbook out...

Check out Idaholewis. He is shooting to 1200 with a sidelock with a peep, and doing very well. Out to around 600 or so with a stock 1:48 barrel.

I bought a Remington 700 ultra 50 caliber ML for just that purpose.

For what it’s worth I did shoot a white tail with a round ball out of my 54 T/C.
I was lucky.

Same here. I put mine in a McMillan but man, what a shooting SOB.

Arrowhead sporting goods was buying up every Remington ultimate he could put his hands on and screwing on a 45 caliber Brux barrel and selling them. He is quite proud of his pricing as well. That's why UML's are hard to find.

Basically the cheapest way to build a hot rod 45cal in smokeless. Barrel swap with new ignition and a little stock work to open it up to accommodate the bigger/longer shank and you have a beast of a muzzleloader. Mine is built on a 700 short action with a used ultimate stock and 300yds on steel is no hard feat.

They don’t stink too bad stock either.

If I did that I would not replace either stock.

Just get him an ‘06 and tell him to call it a ML!

I once saw a TC pro hunter with 45-70 with ramrod rings welded on complete with cleaning rod
Unless you cracked it open, you would never know

300 yds is a real stretch. The truth is, that bullet is going so slow that if a deer is looking at you and sees all the powder , it will jump and you will wound it . At that range it isnt much different than a deer looking at you at 50 yds with a bow. Teddy Rosevelt went out west when the 30-30 was quite new. He said it was the best deer round there was , but even he missed when the antelope was looking at him cause they would see the smoke puff out of the barrel and jump fast enough for him to miss.

I think i will make my own

I’ve seen what Barnes 250g Expanders from 2-300 yds when started at 2200 fps by 3 50g pellets. In my experience, they’ll expand to about 225yds, but after that, I think you’d have to hit shoulders to do any more than punch a 50 caliber hole through a deer. These deer and antelope were shot with Knight muzzle loaders using 209 primers.

I’ve shot other sabot bullet combinations but never found a combo that shot as well (1” to 11/4” groups).

I played around with the 300g Expanders and while they shot as well, I doubt they would expand any further out.

I picked up the tipped version of these bullets and will test this summer. I suspect the streamlined shape will shoot flatter but I’m not sure they’ll open faster than the standard version which I can only describe as flying ashtrays.

Those are a 175-200 yard bullet. You have to start with a 45 like the powerbelt ELR and other bullets that are sized to bore dimensions for the kind of accuracy needed at 300-400 yards.

Farthest whitetail I’ve ever shot with my encore using 80 gr by weight bh209 and a 250 gr xtp sabot was 200 yds and he was walking across a field I aimed at his nose and hit high shoulder

I live in Allegheny County (Pittsburgh, PA) and we are shotgun/muzzleloader only for firearms season. I picked up a used Smokeless ML from a member hear last spring. It is a Rem 700, with Hank's magnum rifle modules setup. Using IMR4198 it is a tack driver. With a 100yd zero it is +2 MOA for zero at 200yds and +6MOA for a 300yd zero.

I fired a 3-shot group at 300yds from the bench and it measured about 2.75 inches. This meat in the freezer no matter how you slice it. Oh, I was shooting Parker 275gr Black Max bullets. These SML's are pricy, but they are awesome!!!
However, I do regret selling the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader that I had previously.

I had this one painted by Brandon at Custom Gun Coatings. He matched a picture of a paint job I saw on another forum. I can't make the pic small enough to post here, but I have posted it on Snipers Hide in an SML thread.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/custom-gun-coatings-camo-group-buy.6964125/post-9720983

Anyway, 300yds is nothing to sneeze at for most people - especially with Muzzleloaders. I'm willing to bet typical loads out of Encore Muzzleloaders and similar inlines are slowing down rapidly at those distances. I would say that your best bet would be to find a used Rem 700 UML or a CVA Paramount if you can't use a SML for some reason (cost or local regs).

Good Luck,
Ross

Shooting targets from a bench with ballistic calculators and all the other bells and whistles is a little different from hunting at 300 yards. I’m not disparaging those that can but the average bp newbie can’t guess distance worth a hoot and bp trajectories are rainbows, I remember shooting bpcr and going from 100-200 yards with my45-70 needed 24” additional holdover.

Go with a Hankins smokeless. I have two of his CVA Scout 45/70 conversations love them. I shoot 275 gr Pittman hardcore or Fury bullets. 3" groups at 300 yards .

Never did any "long range" hunting with a ML, but have done a bit of target work out there a little. Problem is finding a range over 100/200 yards in my neighborhood. Some years ago I purchased a .40 caliber target gun that shoots a 350 grain bullet (pure lead) well enough as far as I'm concerned. Target below was at 200 yards, full value crosswind of about 15G25. I'm fairly certain most critters shot with the old cannon would bother to quibble about the difference between 200/300 yards.

I don't want you shooting at me at any yards with that . how much lord black & fps with that rig and a few pics. of the beast

I have a .45 cal 1:28 twist barrel for my Encore. I shoot 120gr (by volume) of bh209 under a harvester light blue sabot and a 200 gr sst or shockwave at approx 2400 fps. I have killed deer out to 220 yards with this combo, and feel confident to 250 yard. Sighted in 2.5” high at 100 puts me about 2” low at 200 and 8” low at 250.

I will ONLY take a shot over 150 or so if I have calm winds. At 250 yard in a 10 mph crosswind it will be nearly 15” off. Being able to read the wind is critical if shooting at distance with muzzleloader bullets. The one I shot at 220 yards was with zero wind and a rest across a round bale. The bullet entered half way up tight behind the shoulder and exited in front of the far shoulder.

45 cal 1-18 twist

For sale too.


45 bullet flinter 2 by .com/photos/156296479N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
45 bullet flinter 3 by .com/photos/156296479N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

45 bullet flinter by .com/photos/156296479N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

Don't have FPS, never shot it over a chronograph. 60 gr Swiss 1.5 FG

thank you, that is a class act smoke pole

Just buy him a 6.5 Skidmore and he'll be right in line with the rest of the kids!

I’ve got a smokeless 45 barrel from arrowhead rifles for my encore. I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot a deer at 300 with it. It also does well with BH209

I’m shooting sized bullets also from arrowhead

I hope the comments about energy and the bullet going too slow above are in jest

I think you have everything well covered with that rig. I was going the same route.

Hey Beretzs, those numbers are out of this world. I guess I have been out of the game for a while. I feel like the older sabots wouldn't hold up to that kind of starting speed. I guess that is no longer the case? I have a savage ML-II but it's set up for Colorado (running Thors). Drop from 150 yards to 200 is about 18 inches, but the Thors are bricks.

My son had a Paramount blow up on him last fall, if you do a search on them they have a problem with the sabot staying seated on the powder charge. Flawed design in my humble opinion.

So was your son using a Sabot or a powerbelt bullet with the skirt at the bottom?

He was using a powerbelt the barrel banana peeled about 6 inches from where the powder charge and the bullet should have been, the conclusion we came to was the powerbelt somehow dropped away from the charge moved down the barrel. After googling the paramount we found posts mentioning others experiencing this happening to them also. Him and his buddy were sighting their muzzleloaders in for the upcoming season. He happens to be a Green Bret weapons sargent who is very knowledgeable and experienced with firearms. Only thing that saved him from getting seriously hurt was having a bipod attached to the forearm and having the hand that usually grips the forearm back under the stock by his sandbag otherwise he would have probably lost his hand.

I think that is on the bullet and not the rifle. I would not shoot that bullet in any muzzleloader. I understand Gunwerks 5K muzzleloader recommends using that bullet. I would use a sized bullet and go thru that rather then the powerbelt if I owned one of them.

300 is long. I used to shoot BPCR and according to my notes my 45-70 with 370 grain bullet dipped 24 inches from 100 yard zero to 200. ML might e a little faster but drop at 300 will be a challenge. Every fifty yards past about 175 A a lot of drop hen considering the eight or so inch high vitals area.

Shot my arrowhead barreled encore yesterday. 60 grains of h4198 and a 275gr bullet was sub-moa at 400

300 yards?
Get closer before busting the cap. Targets? Sure! But targets don't bleed or feel pain.
Can the rifle be up to the task? Yes. The question is, is the shooter? My personal limit on distance is when I have to take an off body hold. With my aperture sighted Firehawk, 150 yards is my limit. 250 grain 45 XTP @1575 fps is down 8 at 150 and 24 at 200. Confirmed, not estimated.
Because one theoretically can, does not automatically follow that one should.
If one must shoot at critters at long range, confirm your accuracy and drops, learn how to read and hold for wind, and get a good range finder. And use it.
Then, get as close as you can.

Teach him to hunt and get within 100 yards.

I have a Paramount Pro and shooting accurately to 300 yards is a non-issue. I've been shooting the 330gr ELR bullets primarily, with 84grs of BH209 by weight, and Federal 210GM primer. You can put quite a bit more of the powder behind it, per the manual, but you won't find me sitting behind it. I shot 5 3 shot groups yesterday. There were three right around 2", one that was about 4" where I knowI pulled a shot out of the group, and one group that was just under 1". These were shot at 200 yards. The velocity was a little over 2000 fps, so energy at 300 yards would not be an issue. You need a dial scope to shoot at 300 yards in my opinion.

I have the Colorado Edition, 50cal that comes with pretty good irons, and I am very pleased with the rifle overall. My only gripe is that replacing the primer holder quickly, especially with gloves on, is not as easy as one would like.

Hate to see anyone shoot at game at that distance..
fine for targets though.
The GM barreled Knights are very accurate.

I just completed my summer long bullet upgrade, for my .54 Remington 700.....abiding by current Idaho muzzleloader rules.

.533" paper patched, 530 grain, 4:1 lead to linotype, flat nose bullet (.419") with slick sides. It comes in at 10.5 Bhn.....at 1440 fps, with a healthy dose of Pyrodex P powder.

2.5" high at 100, puts me dead on at 125, and -4" at 150. From the muzzle to 150, its between 4" high and 4" low. This is my self imposed shooting limit, under ideal conditions and a solid rest.

Shooting a Lyman 48 peep, with a long slide and target knobs, and a globe front sight, I dial in 8 moa for 200 yards and 15 moa for 250 yards. I shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and 4" groups at 200 yards, when I can get good contrast with the sights on target. I did this last week as a final range trip with this combo, just for fun.

This is my upgraded elk rig. I was getting very discourage with the horrible performance of pure lead bullets, up close, therefore the upgrade to a harder bullet. This bullet should smash both shoulders on a bull, and always exit, which is my goal.

This was a VERY time consuming project, but I learned alot about basic lead alloying and patching bullets.

Andy3

Shoot yeah, that sounds like a very adequate combo! That 530 grain bullet should be a freight train!

I have 700 Remington solid receiver with a Brux 45 caliber barrel with a muzzle break in carbon fiber stock with a Nightforce Scope and it very accurate. I used 4198 with a 275 grain Pittman Bullet.

Interesting. Did you make that sight?