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"...united for national defense and a handful of policies..."

Policies, right, like life, LIBERTY and etc. etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by 5thShock
"...united for national defense and a handful of policies..."

Policies, right, like life, LIBERTY and etc. etc. etc.

Given that slavery was LEGAL at the time of our founding and the writing of our Constitution and that many of our founders, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington ect were slave owners. It would seem pretty clear that they thought slavery to be legal and fall within the Constitution… It’s also fairly clear that they believed that the US should be a country for Caucasians to govern.

You can like that or not. You can apply your 21st century ideas how you like but those would seem to me to be obvious historical facts and did not give Lincoln or any President thereafter the right to violate our Constitution.

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Whatever. I'm in South Texas and my best friend is in Upstate New York. It's no longer about geography.


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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
The very name of our country should give a pretty good clue as to what our founders intent was. The United States of America. A state in the traditional sense and as known at our founding was a nation state… A country. The idea of the United States of America being that we were to be a group of independent countries within North America united for national defense and a handful of policies but otherwise independent and free to do as each state (country) saw fit.

Correct.

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Originally Posted by Jim1611
I have felt for many years that Lincoln was the father of the huge federal government we have today. The war gave him what he needed to implement it. He the same as admitted it when he made the statement that freeing the slaves was not it's purpose. It's purpose was to preserve the union. So ever since we have been taught that
he was a great president and that he saved the union. That has been a diversion, in my eyes, to what the real purpose was. Never ever forget how near sighted most of us are. We view our world within the course of our own lifetimes. Men that form the future, whether for good or bad, do not. Lincoln was part of a master plan that is still playing out. This plan was forged in hell by the devil himself. There are no party lines in this. There is only good and bad. The Founders were on the side of good. They modeled this nation with God's approval. Any leader that goes against that has only one side to be in league with. Lincoln has also been portrayed as a man of God. I need to see evidence of that.


So let me get this straight...............you think Lincoln got rid of the evil of slavery to usher in a new evil of a huge federal government?

I'm reminded of this:

“How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end” (Mark 3:23-26).

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To Washington and Jefferson though, slavery was at best a necessary evil.
Both men were worried about the effect of owning slaves would have on their legacy.
IIRC, Washington put it in his will that they were to be freed upon Martha’s death. (There was no way to run the plantations without them) Martha, fearing foul play after his death, freed them immediately.
I don’t really remember if I read a biography of Jefferson, or if I did, I don’t recall what was done with the slaves on Monticello after his death. I do recall that he was deeply in debt, but what became of the slaves escapes me.
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Originally Posted by 7mmbuster
To Washington and Jefferson though, slavery was at best a necessary evil.
Both men were worried about the effect of owning slaves would have on their legacy.
IIRC, Washington put it in his will that they were to be freed upon Martha’s death. (There was no way to run the plantations without them) Martha, fearing foul play after his death, freed them immediately.
I don’t really remember if I read a biography of Jefferson, or if I did, I don’t recall what was done with the slaves on Monticello after his death. I do recall that he was deeply in debt, but what became of the slaves escapes me.
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Jefferson wasn't legally permitted to free all of his slaves in his will, because he died deeply in debt, so, as property, they had to go to his creditors. He did free two while alive and five in his will.

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If things don’t change, I feel that in about a 100 years one will be able to simply copy much of this rhetoric about slavery and slave owners and just substitute “guns” and “gun owners”.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
I things don’t change, I feel that in about a 100 years one will be able to simply copy much of this rhetoric about slavery and slave owners and just substitute “guns” and “gun owners”.

I'd like to think abortion will be the slavery in 100 years but you're probably right

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Quote

Jefferson wasn't legally permitted to free all of his slaves in his will, because he died deeply in debt, so, as property, they had to go to his creditors. He did free two while alive and five in his will.


Thomas Jefferson was a remarkable guy, we owe him a great deal.

Jefferson also took up with his late wife’s enslaved teenage half sister, the result of his father in law having taken up with an enslaved teenager himself. After their return from France we get the bizarre occurrence of John Adams and his wife congratulating Jefferson when Sally Hemings bore a child, presumably by Jefferson but possibly by Jefferson’s dissolute brother, who spent much time around the slave quarters, for music if nothing else to play music with them..

How does one congratulate a man for the birth of his enslaved child one wonders, is it like his dog having puppies or what? Not living in those times, I guess we’ll never know for sure.

Jefferson DID eventually free Sally Hemming’s children, which were either his or his brother’s own kids.

Despite his own misgivings about the institution, Jefferson, who gave us the wonderful line We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal... never found the moral courage to free his more than one-hundred regular slaves during his lifetime.


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Originally Posted by rainshot
Lincoln was a victim of the circumstances of the time. States rights do not include defying the declaration or the constitution. The slavery issue was one that festered for years and grew into a derision that apparently could be cursed no other way except to destroy a generation of Americans. Lincoln lost his life protecting American sovereignty. We are still suffering the effects of Lincoln’s murder and the terrible reconstruction period that could’ve been much less painful had he been allowed to live.
The democrat party still embodies the principles that led us into slavery and eventually civil war.



The Declaration was not and is not law and never has been law.

Secession is a power of the States as found in the 10th Amendment.

Not all the slaves in the South were worth the bones of one Illinois rifleman, let alone a generation.

Lincoln was killed after he destroyed the republic and ushered in the American Empire. Caesar, but without the physical courage and military accomplishments.


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The south destroyed the republic when they seceded.

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Originally Posted by jfruser
Originally Posted by rainshot
Lincoln was a victim of the circumstances of the time. States rights do not include defying the declaration or the constitution. The slavery issue was one that festered for years and grew into a derision that apparently could be cursed no other way except to destroy a generation of Americans. Lincoln lost his life protecting American sovereignty. We are still suffering the effects of Lincoln’s murder and the terrible reconstruction period that could’ve been much less painful had he been allowed to live.
The democrat party still embodies the principles that led us into slavery and eventually civil war.



The Declaration was not and is not law and never has been law.

Secession is a power of the States as found in the 10th Amendment.

Not all the slaves in the South were worth the bones of one Illinois rifleman, let alone a generation.

Lincoln was killed after he destroyed the republic and ushered in the American Empire. Caesar, but without the physical courage and military accomplishments.




And the winners of war write history.


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Originally Posted by rainshot
The south destroyed the republic when they seceded.


That's true, in a way. Think about how much worse it would be if the southern States had immediately complied. At least there was an attempt to to retain the republic.


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Ok, my feelings about Lincoln and the role slavery played in the war are no secret here, so I’m not gonna go into that.
But just for fun, let me pose a question to the ‘fire’s historians and wannabes!
Who holds the title of bigger azzhole, Lincoln or FDR?
My own feelings are that as much damage as Lincoln caused, FDR’s policies are really what got the ball rolling towards socialism.
Thoughts?
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In order for Lincoln’s position about the right of secession, the following is what the states agreed to when they signed on.

1) No state may ever secede for any reason.
2) If a state does secede, the federal government may suppress the secession with military force.
3) The federal government may coerce all states to provide militias to suppress the seceding state.
4) After suppressing the seceded state, the federal government may govern that state with a military dictatorship until the state accepts the supremacy of the federal government.
5) After the suppression, the federal government may force the state to adopt a new constitution imposed on it by military force, which happened in reconstruction.
6) The president may unilaterally suspend the Bill of Rights and the writ of habeas corpus.

Now, if it took the inclusion of a a written bill of rights to get some of the states to ratify the Constitution, do you think any of them would have signed on if they had believed those six points?

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Fûck you guys.

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I think a big issue in the whole issue of the expansion of slavery was that the slaves were reproducing so rapidly that some states main export was slaves. Forward thinking white southerners realized they would soon be drastically outnumbered by Negro and Mulatto slaves. Haiti's successful slave rebellion with its attendant horrors weighed heavily on their minds. If the slave states could be cordoned off and not allowed to expand the southerners realized they were the next Haiti and could not only expect no help from the national government but might instead likely get steady agitation of their slave population from the northern abolitionists. The import of Negro African slaves is the worst thing ever done to the U.S. but by 1776 the situation was well entrenched.


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Originally Posted by flintlocke
Never a serious student of the Civil War, I ask this question honestly and without bias. How would a panel of the best qualified Constitutional scholars view the war in retrospect? Was it legal? Or was it Mr Lincoln and supporters, saying, no, I'll kill you before I let you divorce me?

How about this for an answer. How many Confederate military or civilian officials were convicted of treason after the war? Note that the vast majority of the Confederate military officer corps that survived the war, both the Confederate president and vice president, the majority of the Confederate presidential cabinet, senators, congressmen, etc., etc., were either captured or publicly available. Both the president and vice president were held as prisoners for a time. NOT ONE, NONE, NADDA of them were tried for treason nor even for disturbing the peace. NONE. The U.S. Supreme Court warned that if any were so charged, they would likely be found not guilty and therefore the war waged on the seceding states would have been found to have been illegal. That is historical FACT.


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Originally Posted by rainshot
The south destroyed the republic when they seceded.

The South was fighting to preserve the Republic within the borders of the Confederacy. The North was seeking empire.

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