Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Post pics of Keith style bullets

429-421 .44 from an Ideal single cavity mold.

Sweet! memtb

Nice.

I can't be the only one.. c'mon fellas, pics!

Looking good Creeker!
Which molds are they from?

The 45 is from a brass MP mould. I had a matched set of 4 cavity.
The 38 is from Lyman, 358429.

These moulds were sold with the business.

32-115, 38-172K, 412421, 41-230K, 44-HG503, 44-270K, 452423, 45-270-SAA, 45-270K

I have an RCBS 250K somewhere around, but I don't use that one much.

Very nice!
That HG503 is one ive been wanting to get

Looks a lot like my old NEI 454-270-PBK made by Walt Melander.

I cast 150gr and 170gr in the 38/357, 210gr in 41Mag, 250gr in 44 spl/mag and 255gr in 45 Colt. All but the 150gr are cast in H&G molds. But I don't know how to post pictures.

I think every mold I have are reproductions of the originals from other makers, but offered by NOE.

The biggest difference (and advantage) one may have is the alloy used for a diameter basis NOE is cut for; for example, the NEI molds were spec'd with Linotype as the basis for alloy. Walt made great molds, but were often cut for a .451 diameter in 45 caliber with Lino or .429/.430 in 44. Cast with wheelweight metal or range scrap, this leaves an undersized bullet for most of he 45 Colt guns I have, which have .454-458 diameter throats. 44 Smiths of old need upwards of .432 to .434 diameters to be at their best.

H&G and RCBS are similar in this regard, which is why I rarely use the 44-250K (.430) and 45-270 SAA (.454) RCBS molds, both of which are spec'd with lino and cast under size with my standard alloy of wheelweights. The 44K RCBS barely even sizes at all in a .430 die with wheelweight as the alloy.
Lyman still uses their #2 alloy as spec, which still may produce an undersized bullet with readily available alloys used today.

NOE or most of the other semi-custom makers either spec their molds with wheelweight metal or offer several diameters with wheelweight metal as a basis for diameters for that ever important ability to size to fit the throats or the ability to keep the seal from case mouth to muzzle.

If one has a mold spec'd for .454 in 45 caliber with the alloy standard as lino, such as the RCBS 270 SAA, it works great in .452-453 throat guns with wheelweight metal, but not in the .454 or larger throated guns that it was supposedly designed for, unless really soft metal is used to bump up and fit the throats for the support and seal. I'd just as soon have the bullet fit snug and be a bit harder, without resorting to linotype or a softer tin/lead alloy, both of which are more expensive and harder to source and also are less flexible in application.

Something to be aware of when looking at Keith bullets when mold shopping.

I know what you're talking about. The old 454-270-PBK was fat enough to use wheelweights and size to .452".

Very good info there Hawkl, thanks for posting

As a note, Walt Melander would cut a mould for the diameter of your choosing. He did this a few times for me.

I thought I'd throw the info out there.

I've been reading old Ross Seyfried articles and one mentions all of the "superior" attributes of the LBT bullet designs. I agree with some of them, but after having a pile of those molds, I think PT Barnum might have gotten carried away in some cases. Time tends to sort things out.

Ross had the old H&G503 and it didnt shoot as well as his new found bullets. Upon reading all of his stuff, his Keith mold threw .429s, and barely at that. So the less accuracy in the tests arent necessarily design driven.

Of note his more accurate bullets were made to order and fitted properly to begin with and I believe Ross would note that today. He did then, just in different articles probably several years apart.

I think Brian Pearce has a pretty good handle on how Keith bullets perform and how well they work for a wide range of loads, something that more specialized designs aren't well adapted to.

We provided many of the Keith 44 & 45 bullets Mr. Pearce used years ago. He was & is a believer in the Keith design.

That's pretty neat Creeker.

More Keith bullet pics, gents!

Hey lightman, If you want to send me the pics I'll post them up for you
Dan

Very cool!

How close do you think your 429421 is to Keith’s original design?

Not Longarm, but here is what I see:

The round bottomed lube groove is wrong, and the top driving band looks* a bit undersized.

*I can't really tell that well.

Mathman is right. Creeker and HawkI could likely tell you more than I can - and I'd be happy if they do - but the rounded lube groove is something that came after Keith. My original post said "Keith style" and I chose those two words intentionally.
60%+ meplat, lot of weight out front to allow for max charge, wide drive bands with crisp shoulders.. all hallmarks of 'Keith style'

I would agree with mathman and longarm. The round lube groove for sure. The radiused ogive looks the same.

In Sixguns there is an illustrated list of Keith's designs and favored bullets, but even by then (1955), Lyman had began altering them. The 358429 already had a narrower front band and rounded lube groove when compared to his 359431 (hollow base) bullet, which was unaltered I believe.

The 454424 (255 45 Colt bullet) was featured some years back in Handloader with two or three different documented designs.

The changes honked Keith off, to the point Hensley and Gibbs was commissioned to make the 220 41 Magnum bullet and later the 503 260 ish 44 bullet.

Here's a site I found interesting, it's a mold alteration service:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

An example that caught my eye:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/band-modifications/?picture=605#605

Another:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/band-modifications/?picture=847#847

I have one of these that could use the treatment:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/band-modifications/?picture=785#785

That's pretty slick.

Keith basically wanted all bands the same width & diameter plus a deep square lube groove & beveled crimp groove. If you met him & asked, this is what he said.

I sold this 41 bullet. It mostly weighed 230 grains. It was a hit with customers. I wouldn't call it the perfect Keith but it was a near perfect 41 bullet.

Creeker
That looks like the real deal. Very nice

A bit of a departure, but of possible interest..
I cast a few of these Ideal 360271 to see what they looked like.
Designed in 1903 or thereabouts as a target round for the .38S&W, and considered a prototype SWC. you have to wonder how much it's design may have influenced Mr. Keith..


i want to love you forever

Nice.

I really like those Keith bullets. I cast the Lyman 429421 (square lube grove) and the RCBS 44-250 (which I think is closer to the original Keith). Both molds have a little age on them and both bullets shoot very well in my 44 Specials and my 44 magnums.

Ballisti-Cast cut this bullet for me, a 475-400-K. In the lower pictures it sit beside the 44-300-K.

Nice!

Creeker those are beauties.

Carolina Blue 429-421
pretty unique baby girl names

Nose pour!

Those look nice!

Not nose pour. The meplat is marked going through the Star sizer pushing the bullet before out the bottom.

Thank you.

Gotcha!

Speaking of Creeker's beauties, I still have some .453" 325 grain Keiths for my new model Blackhawk 45 Colt (not a flat top).

Anyone have a pet load for them?
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/k5hFSWWT/IMG-20220328-060009068.jpg/[/img]

I use a "sissy load" in my Blackhawk, 8.5 of Unique.

Will give it a try. I don't think there are any critters around here that could stop one of those bullets, even at sissy speeds.

I'm looking for a good all around 44 mold in the 250-270g weight range. I'd like a Keith style with a wider meplat but something not too long so it will work in all my 44s including my lever guns.

Many I see have too much of a tangent up front angling into a narrower meplat.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Bb

Keith profile bullets in lever guns are not guaranteed to feed & can be a real problem. The RCBS 44-250-K or clone would be the weight you are looking for.

How about this if the Keith requirement may be dropped?

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/432-240-wfn-cf5/

Anyone have a mold for this Keith bullet?

Do any of the other companies like arsenal make that design in a 4 or 5 cavity?

Bb

Arsenal will build you a 5 cavity gang mold for the 429421 Keith style semi wadcutter weighing at 255 grains for $88. They take a Lee gang mold handle approx $30. I have a Arsenal 5 hole in 358421 they are the tits..mb

Had this one cut for the 500 S&W.

That's a nice looking 500 bullet design. I'd like something similar in a 44 with about a .340 meplat and a little shorter nose with less tangent on it. Does that work well having a 3 bands 0.100? Is that too thick for a front band on a .432 or so?

Bb

The NOE 270 44 Keith fits that bill; shorter nose, less tangent.

I've had good results in the 1894 44 Mag Marlin with NOEs H&G 503 as to decent feeding with Keith designs.

The RCBS 250K is a bit of a hiccupper.

You find some sixguns which may have a little trouble chambering the Keith with the .100" front band. Personally I've not experienced this but have read of those who have. The Lyman/Keith I sold had the front band at .090".