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Has there ever been a successful society that did not believe in the divine origins of humanity?


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by BigFiveJack


This is at the bottom of your every post:
My ideal as a conservative:
That each person may reap as he/she has sown.

IT'S FROM THE BIBLE !
Galatians 6:7 - ...for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
"My ideal as a conservative:That each person may reap as he/she has sown."
Actually, I had no idea such a thought was mentioned in the bible. As far as I knew, I had invented the phrase. It is meant solely in the fiscal sense.




THAT Sir, Is The Point. The power and influence of the Word Of God effects All, even those who deny God.


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Originally Posted by Hastings

I am not atheist but I agree the ten commandments are just common sense rules to keep society harmonious. I agree that a non-believer could come up with a pretty similar set of guidelines for an orderly society.


A) not true; the first four govern worship and unless we’re talking about a really intellectually honest non-believer who is going to govern his self worship he isn’t going to come up w/ these rules

B) the question of the “common sense” of the commandments side steps the central point if we are talking about freedom & why the FFs grounded it in “endowment by the Creator”. Man is valuable because he is made in God’s image, and as such he has intrinsic worth and dignity. He isn’t just the most advanced accident of a series of occurrences in a mindless universe who can then lord it over his fellow creatures to bring about his idea of paradise on earth.

Do I believe we should enforce religious adherence upon society? No. Do I believe that what we are told in scripture regarding what will happen to societies when they deny God’s existence? Yes.

Romans 1 puts it most succinctly, and history has demonstrated this truth over and over again, just as we are witnessing the devolution of ours back into tribalism as we’ve abandoned our faith.

It’s a law of nature as certain as gravity.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
My position is and always has been:
I am intelligent enough to understand what the pelople of a community need from each other in order to live in harmony.

If I choose to live as an adulterer, there will be consequences I would rathet avoid.

If I trespass against my neighbor, there will be.............................

If choose to live as a theif, a drunk, an addict, an abuser of women or children, there will be consequences..................................

Any semi intelligent human should be able to sit down and invent the ten commandments with no prior knowledge. He/she should need no help figuring out how society SHOULD be run.

I find it surprising that some would claim morals can only come from God. When such rules should be self evident to any with an IQ over 85.

Those are my thoughts. I know that many do not agree and of course, that is okay with me. Many of my most beloved are deeply religious. I love/ did love (some are departed) them dearly.

That still does not mean I think they were not mistaken.

One need not share nor hypocritically profess a belief in God to be a true conservative in every sense of the word. Consevative does not necessitate Consevative Christian.

I_S, SIR,

You are missing some info. Morals, absent those that come from an Almighty God, are
constructed by the most powerful person, (or committee) at a given place, at a given time.
Did the Vikings behave according to the 10 Commandments?
Did the Mongols? Did the Native American tribes? The Aztec tribes? The Watusi tribe? The native Australians?
No. Savagery prevailed.
In Hitler's Germany it was Moral/Right/Proper for the Germans to perpetrate all the atrocities that they did.
Speaking against THAT, would get you imprisoned, tortured, killed.
In N. Korea right now, what Kim says, GOES. To go against him is to face the same as to defy Hitler.
Absent the absolute rules established by God, such as, To Be Our Brother's Keeper (which means that we are to
watch out for each other's well-being, to have each other's back) no one would have any moral standing to go into
N. Korea and try to rescue Kim's nation's people from the horrific conditions that Kim imposes upon them.
Further, you say with common sense that people can come up with the 10 Commandments on their own.
Wrong. There was a primitive tribe in Chile, into the early 1970s, who was ignored by the government there, because
the lived remotely. Their standard practice was to kill and EAT 4 out of every 5 female newborn children.
Christian missionaries went there in the early 70s, taught them the Christian doctrine, and that tribe halted all their
terrible practices, and became a Christian people. YOU are the beneficiary of CHRISTIAN teachings that have long
been in place in our nation!
Be grateful for Christianity, and We Have Your Back !

Last edited by BigFiveJack; 04/01/22.

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Originally Posted by BigFiveJack


I_S, SIR,

You are missing some info. Morals, absent those that come from an Almighty God, are
constructed by the most powerful person, (or committee) at a given place, at a given time.
Did the Vikings behave according to the 10 Commandments?
Did the Mongols? Did the Native American tribes? The Aztec tribes? The Watusi tribe? The native Australians?
No. Savagery prevailed.
In Hitler's Germany it was Moral/Right/Proper for the Germans to perpetrate all the atrocities that they did.
Speaking against THAT, would get you imprisoned, tortured, killed.
In N. Korea right now, what Kim says, GOES. To go against him is to face the same as to defy Hitler.
Absent the absolute rules established by God, such as, To Be Our Brother's Keeper (which means that we are to
watch out for each other's well-being, to have each other's back) no one would have any moral standing to go into
N. Korea and try to rescue Kim's nation's people from the horrific conditions that Kim imposes upon them.
Further, you say with common sense that people can come up with the 10 Commandments on their own.
Wrong. There was a primitive tribe in Chile, into the early 1970s, who was ignored by the government there, because
the lived remotely. Their standard practice was to kill and EAT 4 out of every 5 female newborn children.
Christian missionaries went there in the early 70s, taught them the Christian doctrine, and that tribe halted all their
terrible practices, and became a Christian people. YOU are the beneficiary of CHRISTIAN teachings that have long
been in place in our nation!
Be grateful for Christianity, and We Have Your Back !



Interesting. Do you have a name for the tribe in Chile or a point of reference?


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Originally Posted by BigFiveJack
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
My position is and always has been:
I am intelligent enough to understand what the pelople of a community need from each other in order to live in harmony.

If I choose to live as an adulterer, there will be consequences I would rathet avoid.

If I trespass against my neighbor, there will be.............................

If choose to live as a theif, a drunk, an addict, an abuser of women or children, there will be consequences..................................

Any semi intelligent human should be able to sit down and invent the ten commandments with no prior knowledge. He/she should need no help figuring out how society SHOULD be run.

I find it surprising that some would claim morals can only come from God. When such rules should be self evident to any with an IQ over 85.

Those are my thoughts. I know that many do not agree and of course, that is okay with me. Many of my most beloved are deeply religious. I love/ did love (some are departed) them dearly.

That still does not mean I think they were not mistaken.

One need not share nor hypocritically profess a belief in God to be a true conservative in every sense of the word. Consevative does not necessitate Consevative Christian.

I_S, SIR,

You are missing some info. Morals, absent those that come from an Almighty God, are
constructed by the most powerful person, (or committee) at a given place, at a given time.
Did the Vikings behave according to the 10 Commandments?
Did the Mongols? Did the Native American tribes? The Aztec tribes? The Watusi tribe? The native Australians?
No. Savagery prevailed.
In Hitler's Germany it was Moral/Right/Proper for the Germans to perpetrate all the atrocities that they did.
Speaking against THAT, would get you imprisoned, tortured, killed.
In N. Korea right now, what Kim says, GOES. To go against him is to face the same as to defy Hitler.
Absent the absolute rules established by God, such as, To Be Our Brother's Keeper (which means that we are to
watch out for each other's well-being, to have each other's back) no one would have any moral standing to go into
N. Korea and try to rescue Kim's nation's people from the horrific conditions that Kim imposes upon them.
Further, you say with common sense that people can come up with the 10 Commandments on their own.
Wrong. There was a primitive tribe in Chile, into the early 1970s, who was ignored by the government there, because
the lived remotely. Their standard practice was to kill and EAT 4 out of every 5 female newborn children.
Christian missionaries went there in the early 70s, taught them the Christian doctrine, and that tribe halted all their
terrible practices, and became a Christian people. YOU are the beneficiary of CHRISTIAN teachings that have long
been in place in our nation!
Be grateful for Christianity, and We Have Your Back !



I wanted to post this but knew I would mess it up. Thanks.


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
My position is and always has been:
I am intelligent enough to understand what the pelople of a community need from each other in order to live in harmony.

If I choose to live as an adulterer, there will be consequences I would rathet avoid.

If I trespass against my neighbor, there will be.............................

If choose to live as a theif, a drunk, an addict, an abuser of women or children, there will be consequences..................................

Any semi intelligent human should be able to sit down and invent the ten commandments with no prior knowledge. He/she should need no help figuring out how society SHOULD be run.

I find it surprising that some would claim morals can only come from God. When such rules should be self evident to any with an IQ over 85.

Those are my thoughts. I know that many do not agree and of course, that is okay with me. Many of my most beloved are deeply religious. I love/ did love (some are departed) them dearly.

That still does not mean I think they were not mistaken.

One need not share nor hypocritically profess a belief in God to be a true conservative in every sense of the word. Consevative does not necessitate Consevative Christian.

I am not atheist but I agree the ten commandments are just common sense rules to keep society harmonious. I agree that a non-believer could come up with a pretty similar set of guidelines for an orderly society.

A group of non believers could absolutely come up with societal norms that benefit the society. The difficult part for a society of non believers is why should any individual person adhere to those norms that benefit society as a whole but not the individual person if they can “game the system”, not get caught, or engage in legal behavior that they like even if it’s bad for society?

Just one example of legal behavior that’s been extremely destructive to society is the number of kids born out of wedlock as society has become secular.

Crime is bad for society but not necessarily some individuals if they think that they can get away with it. In your face gay and lesbian life styles aren’t good for society but without a faith in Gods word how are you going to convince someone that wants to flaunt it much less actively promote it not to? The same could be said for honesty, work, ethic, not sleeping with your neighbors wife and a never ending list of things that are bad for society but may or may not be bad for an individual.

Most people are going to do what feels good or what they perceive to be in their best interest not societies best interest. What a society with a strong Christian faith as we one had does it convince the average person to at least aspire to a code of behavior that is in their best interest as in eternal life as a reward and social acceptance. That also benefits society as a whole. Take God out of the equation and most people don’t give a damn about putting societal good over personal good.


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One has to wonder why, if the moral law is so basic and anyone could come up with it, we have any problems at all?

It’s like common sense… that is anything BUT common.

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Originally Posted by RiverRider
Has there ever been a successful society that did not believe in the divine origins of humanity?

There certainly have been hundreds that had no knowledge of the Christian God.

Chinese history rivals that of the Hebrew.

Man is an imaginative creature and easily invents myth to cover the inadequacies of his understanding.

Originally Posted by The Last Lemming
Most people are going to do what feels good or what they perceive to be in their best interest not societies best interest. What a society with a strong Christian faith as we one had does it convince the average person to at least aspire to a code of behavior that is in their best interest as in eternal life as a reward and social acceptance. That also benefits society as a whole. Take God out of the equation and most people don’t give a damn about putting societal good over personal good.


Nothing I can disagree with there. It takes a lot of education to overcome the basic selfish nature of mankind. In the real world, I observe little difference between the selfish nature of those well educated in the way of God, or those who had minimal training in such matters.

Originally Posted by EFW

A) not true; the first four govern worship and unless we’re talking about a really intellectually honest non-believer who is going to govern his self worship he isn’t going to come up w/ these rules


Those first four also give the Priest authority, and power of life and death over the members of the tribe. How else does the tribe know "the Will of God", but from the mouth of the Priest?

Originally Posted by GreginTenn
That is a view I can appreciate. As Christians, we are commanded to tell you about Jesus and salvation. What you do with that is up to you. I do not understand the perceived need of many to try and force it down your throat. I can and do respect your position. I hope you can understand mine. Many don't.


I fully understand your position and fully respect it. The simple truth is I do not know God. I can feel no God around me or in the environment.

That you do is wonderful for you.

Originally Posted by Bristoe


What is your point in starting divisive threads like this?


Simple discussion. Can not intelligent persons exchange ideas without creating devision?


People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Originally Posted by efw
One has to wonder why, if the moral law is so basic and anyone could come up with it, we have any problems at all?

It’s like common sense… that is anything BUT common.


A lot of people seem to not realize that fundamental Christian beliefs are the building blocks of what made Westerns civilization. Asians as a whole are as intelligent or more so. It was the biblical teachings especially those of the New Testament that propelled Western Europeans and eventually Americans to lead the world and set us apart. The concepts of individual freedom, nuclear families, respect for authority while also being an independent individual free to make one’s own choices and on and on were concepts pioneered by the West and based on biblical teachings.

Westerns Europe was obviously deeply religious at the time that most modern culture and political theory was being developed in that part of the world and it was carried over to the US.

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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
Originally Posted by efw
One has to wonder why, if the moral law is so basic and anyone could come up with it, we have any problems at all?

It’s like common sense… that is anything BUT common.


A lot of people seem to not realize that fundamental Christian beliefs are the building blocks of what made Westerns civilization. Asians as a whole are as intelligent or more so. It was the biblical teachings especially those of the New Testament that propelled Western Europeans and eventually Americans to lead the world and set us apart. The concepts of individual freedom, nuclear families, respect for authority while also being an independent individual free to make one’s own choices and on and on were concepts pioneered by the West and based on biblical teachings.

Westerns Europe was obviously deeply religious at the time that most modern culture and political theory was being developed in that part of the world and it was carried over to the US. It’s impossible to separate traditional Western values and culture from biblical teachings.


False in many counts.

I suppose you believe the monks in Ireland saved western civilization too?

I say this as a “white” Christian


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Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff
Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
Originally Posted by efw
One has to wonder why, if the moral law is so basic and anyone could come up with it, we have any problems at all?

It’s like common sense… that is anything BUT common.


A lot of people seem to not realize that fundamental Christian beliefs are the building blocks of what made Westerns civilization. Asians as a whole are as intelligent or more so. It was the biblical teachings especially those of the New Testament that propelled Western Europeans and eventually Americans to lead the world and set us apart. The concepts of individual freedom, nuclear families, respect for authority while also being an independent individual free to make one’s own choices and on and on were concepts pioneered by the West and based on biblical teachings.

Westerns Europe was obviously deeply religious at the time that most modern culture and political theory was being developed in that part of the world and it was carried over to the US. It’s impossible to separate traditional Western values and culture from biblical teachings.


False in many counts.

I suppose you believe the monks in Ireland saved western civilization too?

I say this as a “white” Christian

How so?

I didn’t say that they saved it. I said that Christian worldviews created it. The concepts of Magna Carta in England which influenced our founders and the concepts of our Constitution are rooted in Western philosophy based on Christian concepts and worldviews.

Modern Western European culture goes back to roughly the Middle Ages at a time of deep faith and where Christian concepts played a role in everything. It was that faith that influenced nearly everything going on as the culture and political climate changed over the years under that influence bringing us out of the Middle Ages leading right up to recent times and still does today in large part even as we see it crumbing.

Rather a Christian or not it’s impossible to not recognize the role religious philosophy and Christianity had in shaping Western philosophy as a whole and ultimately shaping the world IMO.

It was biblical faith and teachings that laid the groundwork for nearly all modern Caucasian cultures just as the Curran has for Muslim culture or that atheism generally defines Asian culture.

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Not a single reply advocating for mandated religion. Of course the OP knew that'd be the outcome before he started the thread.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Originally Posted by RiverRider
Has there ever been a successful society that did not believe in the divine origins of humanity?

There certainly have been hundreds that had no knowledge of the Christian God.

Chinese history rivals that of the Hebrew.

Man is an imaginative creature and easily invents myth to cover the inadequacies of his understanding.


I said nothing of the God we believe in. I asked about successful societies that did not believe in a god.

The question is not meant to stir up additional acrimony. I tried to think of a successful nation, tribe, or culture that had no concept or belief in a supreme being or beings and I can't come up with any due to my limited knowledge. That is in part why I asked. I also thought it can be a thought provoking question (in spite of how unpopular they can be around here on some days).


Don't be the darkness.

America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.


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Originally Posted by copperking81
Not a single reply advocating for mandated religion. Of course the OP knew that'd be the outcome before he started the thread.


Can’t destroy a straw man unless you create him first.

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Originally Posted by TheLastLemming76
Originally Posted by efw
One has to wonder why, if the moral law is so basic and anyone could come up with it, we have any problems at all?

It’s like common sense… that is anything BUT common.


A lot of people seem to not realize that fundamental Christian beliefs are the building blocks of what made Westerns civilization. Asians as a whole are as intelligent or more so. It was the biblical teachings especially those of the New Testament that propelled Western Europeans and eventually Americans to lead the world and set us apart. The concepts of individual freedom, nuclear families, respect for authority while also being an independent individual free to make one’s own choices and on and on were concepts pioneered by the West and based on biblical teachings.

Westerns Europe was obviously deeply religious at the time that most modern culture and political theory was being developed in that part of the world and it was carried over to the US.


I am not going to argue the premise that western societies built the most advanced modern civilizations, biggest economies and widest ranging global impacts, it didn’t happen in a vacuum.

Middle eastern societies shut themselves off from the rest of the world in response to what they saw as the decadence of the west following the crusades from the west and the Mongol invasions from the north and east. These happened in about a 200 year window. So early to mid 1300s, Muslim writers advocated for a more strict focus on Islamic teachings and a “turning away” from western influence and thought. These were the societies that first used the quadrant and sextant for navigation on the open seas.

The above remains one of the main reasons the Arab civilizations remain so far behind the rest of the world. Two good reads are: “Closing of the Muslim Mind” and “The Arab Mind.”

Following the voyages of Zheng He, China entered a period of self isolation. Zheng He’s voyages included ships that dwarfed those of the west with crews of 4-600. Fleets had crews in the 20-25,000 man range. Voyages went all the way to the Cape of Good Hope, but were cost prohibitive. So in the mid 1430s, China burned its fleets, locked its doors and turned inward in a renewed Confucian focus in response to threats from the growing Buddhist faith.

If the East and Middle East had remained active, it could have potentially set off an arms and land grab race that would have been epic to say the least.

The west was very shrewd in what it borrowed as far as navigation and cartography. Add to that a population hungry for everything new and better as economies were growing but monarchical systems were clamping down on individual and religious liberties and we have the wide open Western Hemisphere ripe for the taking.

That said, the forming of modern western societies based on Christian values is one of the reasons for their stability in my thinking. The belief in man’s free will, the belief that with free will and liberty man will flourish, the 10 commandments and basic morality based on Natural Law from God might have been the perfect storm of the time period. Throw in the popular enlightenment belief that government should only be in place to protect liberties. Then add in the desire to have the state out of the church’s business not as a political statement but rather because Protestants, puritans, quakers and other non-Anglican and non-Catholic believers would no longer abide the tyranny over their beliefs.


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For why should my freedom be judged by another man's conscience? - 1 Corinthians 10:29
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I believe in Freedom of religion. You worship what you want and I will to. And I will stand with you for that right even if yours is the opposite of mine.Because if you don't have your freedom the time will come when I won't have mine.

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Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Would have their brand of religion mandated by law?



Already have a law to prevent that.


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Originally Posted by Bristoe


What is your point in starting divisive threads like this?


Simple discussion. Can not intelligent persons exchange ideas without creating devision?[/quote]

Not when you make statements like this.
Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter
Many of the founding fathers were agnostic or athiest. That God is named in our founding documents reflects the pressure of the church and of public opinion at the time. It does not prove the existance of God.

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Only mandate is no mandate.


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