Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Straight English Stock

Hey gang,

How does a straight English stock help the shooter. I came across a Remington 1187 with one today. Just wondering what advantage, if any, it gives the shooter. I’m considering it for a 4-H clays gun for my son.

Tim,

You will find them to be exceedingly rare on the sporting course. Way back in the day, straight stocks had a minor following on the trap fields.
Experimenting with one now, and should eventually get OK with it, but I find little advantage with a straight stock. For myself, it feels most comfortable on a high driven clay. Something the Brits regularly do with their game shooting. However, we do little of it here and today from pics, it seems most of the Brit driven shooters are using pistol grips.

Some feel it quicker to mount, however quick doesn't take the place of a controlled smooth mount.

However, they sure do look nice on a SxS and with practice one should be able to shoot both examples equally.

I would rather carry a straight grip hunting gun than a pistol grip gun on long days hunting behind the bird dog. Just more comfortable, especially when one handing it by the grip. In my experience there isn't anything that carries better than a straight grip, Side Lock, double trigger, round body SxS.

As far as shooting goes....it is hard to beat a nice pistol grip stock...unless I am shooting a twin trigger SxS, where I prefer the straight grip.

Agree completely, and this matches my experience. In the target games, the pistol grip gives more precise control over the gun and is an advantage. I also find a minor advantage to the pistol grip in shooting game birds, and find that an open pistol grip, known generally as a Prince of Wales grip, is about perfect for me. I have a 30” barreled 28 gauge built to my specs with this grip. When I pick it up the angels sing.

The advantage Kurt52 points out for the straight grip is in the carrying, not the shooting.

Thoughts on shotgun stocks from those who perfected the object.

https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/guns/s/shotguns/understanding-types-of-shotgun-stocks

For clays? He will shoot overall better scores with a pistol grip. If not so, more of the pros would be shooting straight stocks.

Thanks for the input, fellas!!!!!

Follow the science like the present CDC does. Well,…it would be impossible to eliminate all the variables in this problem of straight vs pistol grip to really make it purely objective. Even with two absolutely identical guns with the two different grips. Even with the same shooter. Ever.

But, I do also think that the pistol grip in most hands, most of the time, gives a bit more control with less severe bending of the wrist, and less severe closing of the ring and little fingers.

That said, a straight grip > Prince of Wales > pistol grip > some of those severely closed pistol grips Browning puts out. Aesthetically! For me.

Might cost me a bird here or there, but in the uplands it’s not about going 25/25 or 49/50. 🙂

I have a RBL, 20 ga with a straight stock with XXXX wood, it is for sale. I find it hard to control. Prefer a Prince of Wales.

I might experiment with my M12 Winchester 16 ga pump. Have a later (1959?) factory stock with a "modern" pistol grip and a High Plains aftermarket stock with an English "straight" grip. Both are 14" LOP and 2-1/4" drop at heel. Might be a good test, except I don't shoot many perfect skeet scores...usually 23 so it wouldn't tell me too much. Would be fun though! Could sort out 23's from significantly lower rounds anyway. Already know which will carry the best

For me, I prefer a straight grip stock for hunting. I could care less about scores on the range. A straight grip hunts better in the thick nasty crap I hunt in. It comes up faster for me and I'm not swinging through birds with the hunting I do. It's snap shooting.

On the right firearm, a straight stock is awesome!
To me, they are best on fine, 20 gauge S×S shotguns with a splinter foreend.

For upland game I really like my straight grip sxs's, for clays I like pistol gripped sxs's. Waterfowl it is pretty much pistol gripped sxs's unless I'm ump shooting ducks on the creeks but that's pretty much like upland hunting. I have a set of Hungarian FEG sxs's that are matching except for the grips so I've had a chance to test the theory out.

I do have a 5 lb 15 oz 12ga sxs with a straight grip that is my favorite to carry and it kills like lightning, sometimes I have birds on the ground before my partner can shoulder his semi auto.

That is most likely an indication of you vs partner...than straight vs pistol.

Actually I think it is more to the fact that my shotgun is 2 lbs lighter and fitted to me than an off the shelf long barreled heavy semi auto.

Some are definitely quicker than others….However, if his shotgun is heavy to the point not allowing him to react….you have Birds on the ground, and he hasn’t even shouldered… then again straight vs pistol is not the issue.

I’d advise him to not take up gunfighting as a second career.

5.5 pounds with a pistol grip. Doubt I would be very far behind.

Since most straight grips are going to be SxS’s…. Two triggers or one?

Keep in mind reliability is no longer an issue with modern day SxS’s

Two for me....choke choice on the covey rise. It was easy for me to adapt to them and go back and forth with single trigger guns. Plus reliability...we had one single trigger SxS...it was problematic, either would double or not fire at all and not fixed after 4 tries with quality gunsmiths. No more of them for us for us. My wife got really tired of a 5.5# 28 ga doubling with hunting loads.

What brand and how old?

Bill Hanus Birdgun, which was an AYA 453 boxlock with single trigger. Probably a 2001 or 2002 gun. We replaced it with an AYA #2 sidelock round body twin trigger gun and have had zero issues with it, or the other two we bought afterward. Also have a Grulla twin trigger sidelock with zero issues.

The Bill Hanus gun made two trips to John Rowe in Enid, OK as well as two to David Yale in CO repairs. In all cases it started either not firing or worse, doubling within two boxes of ammo. John Rowe finally told me to replace it with a twin trigger gun and solve the issue. At the time he was AYA's US factory warranty gunsmith as well as one of the 5 or so importers.

Once burned, based on that info, I would not touch another single trigger SxS no matter what anyone says!

Amen, one barrel, one trigger-two barrels, two triggers.

Have had 3 single Miller trigger Parker’s. And one Parker Repro single trigger with no problems.

Also have a straight stock double trigger Parker Repro that I’m having problems adjusting to. Will get it with practice.

Some of the early Spanish guns had soft steel that was not case hardened correctly. May have been the issue. Renato Gamba(Italian)had that issue, until it was corrected

I only have experience with one. A Remington 870 wingmaster "Special Field". I also has a short barrel. I can't remember if it is 24 or 21 inches. I think it's 24. Has remchokes. It is more for upland game shooting. I use a Browning BPS 28 inch for pass shooting. Or at times a Winchester 37. All are 12 gages.

A catchy phrase, but more style than substance. Lots of SxS’s and 14 gazillion O/U’s work fine with one trigger. I’m fine with either arrangement.

To the OP: If possible, get the kid a target gun. Especially so if trap is the game. He’ll be miles ahead if he’s properly equipped. Depending on his size, you might need some stock adjustment. Good on you for caring to do it right. A lifetime of shooting fun awaits. Oh, yea, find him some part time work to cover shells and targets. Shotguns are expensive to feed!

Much the same as the old phrase...I shoot a SxS because my eyes are OO.....

Wonder why there are so few two trigger O/U if there is a reliability problem. Some clay target shooters are burning thru 30-50K rounds a year and reliability isn't a problem.
The Brits are ever increasing going to O/U's for their driven shooting..One trigger...

Today the reliability of the single trigger....SxS or O/U....is pretty much a given for any well made and designed 2 barrel shotgun.

Something for those who have to have it all....Straight, two triggers, O/U.

The straight stock seemed to be a product of English game shooting technique of the late 19th up into the middle 20th Centuries based on the short articles on shooting technique by Robert Churchill and an uncredited on by possibly Gough Thomas though he may have been a little later than this article. the emphasis for gun movement was placed on the forward arm rather than the trigger hand and the straight stock helped in this by giving the trigger hand somewhat less leverage.

I can't say if this is true or not, it might be as Churchill was also a proponent of 25" barrels at the time. The other author made no mention of barrel length which is one reason I suspect someone besides Thomas for that article, Thomas seemed to have a fondness for 27" barrels. Both articles also made mention of rather light guns which also may have worked better with a straight grip.

I've owned and shot a number of straight grip guns in about every action type and haven't found any advantage to them. If anything, I found the straight grip to be a disadvantage in some rifles and especially big bores as the stock would slip and the rear of the trigger guard would smack my middle finger in the latter. In shotguns I've owned/used straight grips in SxS, O/U, semiauto, pump, lever, drillings, and even a single shot. Except for the one O/U they have all gone down the road. I've kept the one O/U mostly out of nostalgia but it does fit decently so I shoot it well. It's also a great truck gun for those places one can carry an U cased gun.

As for the single/double trigger preference, I prefer a single. I can and do use double trigger guns without a problem but I prefer singles. It's probably due to not liking SxS guns much though I do get by with the ones I have. As for the SxS having barrels, "set as God meant them to be," I say that is only true if one mounts the gun on one's chin. 😳 Otherwise, the shooter has the master eye looking down the middle between the barrels which is no different than with any single barrel gun. I get this from a couple buddies on my sporting clays team and hit them with this on occasion. So far they haven't taken me up on this challenge, not even with a 410. I hope they don't, I saw a guy do this with an M-16 on semiauto and even that gave him a fat lip and a bloody nose. Good thing he hadn't switched it to 3 round burst yet.

Just in the past year I've seen two SxS single trigger guns malfunction at the range...Winchester Model 23 and a Spanish double...forget the make, but not a name brand. There was also a top of the line Ugartechea sidelock that was for sale on a table at our last shoot ($3500). Had a trigger lock on it so didn't know what trigger configuration it had...until a friend of the seller told me it was a single trigger and it had malfunctioned on occasion and had to be worked on. Believe it was about a 2015, bought just prior to Ugartechea shutting down in 2016. Anyway, not a cheap gun...around $5,000 new per the friend. Obviously not everyone knows how to make reliable single trigger SxS's which seem to be a lot trickier geometry to perfect than an O/U. Bottom line...I'd stay away from single trigger SxSs. And Model 23s, although long out of production were far from a cheap gun either.

But there are a fair amount of Browning O/Us belonging to guys I shoot with that have misfire issues with the bottom barrel so I wouldn't call them fool proof either, but definitely more reliable than a single trigger SxS in my experience.

Browning bottom barrel issues are well known. And has something to do with the length of the bottom barrel firing pin being more critical. Wear eventually causes issues.

I can’t even guess the number of rounds I have out of single trigger Krieghoff and Perazzi shotguns with no failures that were gun related. Over 200 K rounds for sure. Primers hit that didn’t fire, yes. Firing pins that became tip burnt and once replaced, any issues went away.
Have seen a single trigger Perazzi SxS that seamed reliable. Krieghoff makes a SxS in which you can have either 1 or 2 triggers. Have yet to read of any issues either way.

Parkers had single trigger issues. Replace it with a Miller trigger and the issues went away.

Double trigger guns should be more reliable. Significantly more reliable with today’s new guns? Since newly designed SxS's are rare, the decision to go with two on older examples does have merit.

I couldn't agree more. I do love their fast handling qualities.

Old beat up Robust No. 4 16ga

So what problems do anyone have switching between single and double triggers ? I use a straight grip SXS single trigger Win 21, and two double trigger drillings w/pistol grips.And a Ruger Red label o/u single trigger. I'm looking at another sxs straight grip with double triggers. I don't really shoot clays often, but when I do I shoot the 21 best. I shoot the Ruger most often, but not well.

Not sure how the brain allows one to switch between single and double triggers, but I seriously have no problem with it. Took me about a week to get onto twin triggers 20 years ago and can and do go back and forth easily. Even using the rear trigger first on longer shots on occasion in the field.

That's been my experience, also. One thing I do is a little "shadow boxing" before a hunt. I use snap caps and bring the gun up fast, as I would hunting upland birds. I snap the trigger/triggers and practice for a couple of minutes. It helps. My shooting is equally bad with any trigger/triggers, but I get lead into the air.

My big problem is with safeties. Going from tang to Greener and back still frustrates me and especially the dogs. Crossbolts are the Devil's invention!

The straight grip was made for use with double trigger shotguns, which was all we had at the time. The idea was that it would be easier to slide your hand back slightly to engage the 2nd trigger. They don't make a lot of sense on a single trigger gun, unless you just like them.

Correct for driven overhead shooting the Brits were famous for. Because as their head slid back on the stock the LOP became longer. The back trigger equaled out the LOP on overheads.

For the mostly almost parallel shooting we do, it’s not that important. Other than barrel selection.

I snuck up on this one a couple years back.



Arrieta 903 Sidelock 16 gauge.
















I'm much more of a rifle looney than shotgun guy, but i have been amazed how well I shoot this.

ya!

GWB

I loved my 870 Special Field 20 ga.
21" fixed choke Modified.

For me a hurried shot w a quick gun was too fast.
Relax and let the little speedster do its thing....wonderful.

Unfortunately prices on em now are insane.
Had a BPS Upland Special too. Liked it.

But loved the 870.

870 and 1100 Specials were initially 21" fixed choke. Then they went 21" Remchoke and lastly 23" Remchoke. Mag tubes shortened also ( hold 1 round less ).

The BPS version was full length mag tube and 22" IIRC

This!!!!!! Period, end of story!!!!

Not all agree with that story....


https://shotgunreport.com/2012/08/24/english-stock/

As to triggers, here is a picture of a Browning inertia single trigger, which I think means the recoil of the first shot “sets” the second trigger. Apparently they have been known to “double” rarely, or, as I experienced it, fail-to-fire the second barrel. It was a rare occurrence later on in my years with it. But it happened several times without any problem with the firing pin. There is more info online about this. I’m not at all saying this is a common occurrence in single trigger guns..

And, I don’t pretend to be able to point out how it happens. I found it interesting.

GW, that is a gorgeous shotgun!

Ya!

Ya Ya Ya!

I put the straight grip stock (bought from High Plains Gunstocks in NE a decade or so ago) on my '59 Model 12 16 ga and shot a round of skeet this weekend....usual score of 23...thought it handled just fine on the skeet range vs the regular pistol grip stock.

But I like straight grip stocks and have one on a Beretta 686 20/28 gauge combo gun....got it from Coles in Maine 20 years ago...very pretty. I shoot them on all our SxSs too so am more than use to them.

Haven’t hunted much with them but they sure look cool

I've got the 870 special field 12 and 20 and an 1100 special field in 20. Great little shotguns and to me they're faster handling than the typical pistol grip 26-28" barreled semi or pump.

To the issue of how to use double triggers, the hand does not have to move between shots. Only the trigger finger needs to move. Only the finger tip is used on the front trigger, such that the finger moves easily to the back trigger with no change in grip.

I often hunt and shoot a 1914 Fox with double triggers and a pistol grip, no trouble with either trigger, nor do I need to shift my hand. The late Michael McIntosh used to preach this method; he was right.