Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Recoil: 338 Win Mag vs 45-70 Govt?

Anybody shot both of these in stiff loads with heavy bullets, with the .45-70 in something like a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun at seven pounds and change with Alaskan style handloads, and the .338 in say an eight pound bolt action with e.g. 250 grain partitions?

What were your impressions of the rifles' recoil manners relative to each other?

Have both and love them both.. have a Marlin ABL... Basically the SBL everyone is so crazy about except in Blued... the 338wm is a Sako AV. Personally I fell the 338wm more than the 45-70... the 45-70 is a heavy gun but has a better pad on it... to me the 338wm has a more sharp punch in some ways that the 45-70. Honestly, the 338 probably kicks more than any other gun I own which includes a 375H&H

A 338 with a decent 1 inch recoil pad isn’t as uncomfortable as my 45-70 with a straight stock and steel butt-playe.

Same . I find th 338 has less severe recoil then a 300 win mag and much less then a 300 weatherby.

I have both calibers. 338 is a Tikka 695 SS bolt and the 45-70 is a Marlin Guide Gun, both scoped. With heavy 400 grain handloads loads the 45-70 is downright painful to shoot off of a bench rest. The 338 not so.

With anemic factory loads or 300 grain handloads the 45-70 isn't as bad.

10 rounds of Buffalo Bore 430 gr out of my Guide gun is all I want to handle, I can usually get 20 rounds of 250 gr grand Slams out of my 77 Ruger . I don’t shoot the 45-70 much, carry gun when out with Grand Kids.If I had to shoot 10 rounds each day ,my 416 Rigby in 77 Ruger would be more pleasant .

I had a Shilen DGA 338WM, McMillan stock that fit ME, all 8+ #s, full house with 250 or 300 grainers was a dream to shoot, and it shot the 300 Barnes Originals amazingly well....

My 1895 Marlin Cowboy Gun, 26" Bbl with 510g paper-patched lead at 1600fps, was an a hammer at the range, sitting or standing it would tag you....

Mathematically my Marlin 45-70 GG ( 430’s @ 1800) is near identical ( maybe a pound or two less) to my wife’s 9.0 pound .338 WM! But, it feels a bit different, her .338 seems to “jab” a bit sharper! memtb

So, to me it really depends on the rifle. I’ve got a straight stocked Marlin 45-70 that is way more unpleasant than any .338 I ever shot. On the other hand, I have a Uberti 1886 with a pistol grip stock that is fine to shoot. And measured against it, I find the .338 more unpleasant.

Depends how you load them. Most of my 45-70 are loaded with 500 gr ppb's and black powder. Although you sure wouldn't care to use my 86 lwt rifle with 400 grain jacketed and 3031 very many shots a session. The 338 win mag is.a miserable bitch if you shoot much and are trying to enjoy it...hey you asked.mb

Rifle type is a huge factor.

Levers are not great for recoil.
Some bolt action stocks shapes are poorly designed
Standand stock dimensions aren't right for everyone

The trend is ultalight rifles. Then people wonder why their gun beats them up and they can't shoot it well.

Put a 338 in a 10 pound gun with a good stock properly sized to the shooter and a good pad, and it shouldn't be a bad kicker

Truth ^^^^^

I agree with everything said above, 338 is sharper, faster recoil impulse while the 45-70 is slower. Stock design is paramount in helping reduce felt recoil.

The GG will chew up the fingers before the 338 in a decently fitting stock hurts your shoulder....

The Ruger No.1 45/70 has a tendency to do both.

I've owned and shot several of each with the "hottest" loads they could safely handle. As already mentioned: It depends on too many variables to be pontifical about one over the other. I've owned and used three .338 Win Mags, one of which became a .340 Wby by a rechambering job, and it had a 26" barrel. Top hunting load was a 250gr NP at 3000 fps (I shot a bull moose with that load.) Because of the carbon-fibre stock and long barrel (and 1000 rounds) I could shoot it as well as my .223.

The various 1895 Marlins (including one GG) in .45-70, on the other hand, could become unpleasant at the bench firing a 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps, IF I spent too much time doing that! So, once I had my load I got off the bench. That same load in a single-shot NEF was more pleasant to shoot, though it was about 1-pound lighter than the Marlin. Both were very accurate. I shot a very good bear with that 465gr hardcast from the NEF. The recoil was fast but not unpleasant. In fact, recoil has never been in my mind when shooting a game animal with one of my "big bores", because I shoot them often. I haven't shot "small bores" for a couple of decades, except for my .22LRs for practice at the range - often alongside my .458 Win Mag.

Currently I've 86 years + four months at 165 lbs, and working on handloads for a very light .35 Whelen.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Some of my favorite rifles are the No.1 Rugers in .458-caliber. I've owned three in .45-70, the last of which I had my gunsmith give a long throat to (LT) so monolithic bullets and the heavy 450s and 500s could be safely used. That Ruger No.1 became not only my favorite rifle, but my favorite hunting rifle for twenty years! It was the equal of a .458 Win Mag with top loads from a 22" barrel (500gr Hornady @ 2200 fps). I shot a bear with that load, but eventually settled on 300gr and 350gr TSX's for all hunting.

Nearly 4 years ago, I exchanged the Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT for a Ruger No.1H in .458 Win Mag because the .458 was 2 lbs heavier and had the Mag-Na-Porting. I needed a heavier rifle with ports to reduce felt recoil, without a loss of ballistics, because of arthritis in hands and shoulders, plus having only one good eye that had the lens replaced.

My advice is, therefore, that the individual must decide on their comfort level, or tolerance, of recoil from a given rifle and cartridge. Also, their experience is a major factor. If they've been mostly shooting cartridges in the class of a .270 Win, for example, going to a true Big Bore (including Marlins in .45-70) is more than just a step up... it's more like a couple of steps, or one giant step up in not only felt recoil, but it's another world in learning to handle that kind of force and weight in actual hunting conditions.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Shot Muffin's .338 (pussy cat) and his .45-70 (orangutan). My .45-70 is named Thumper for a reason.

I have both,a Marlin 1895G guide gun with the straight grip stock and a push feed model 70 338. I shoot the 325 grin Hornady Leverevolutions factory loads in the 45/70. My load for the 338 is 68 grains of imr4831 with a speer 225 gr boat tail spire point in the 338. In my opinion it's 2 different kinds of recoil. The 45/70 is more like a slow hard push. The 338 is a fast jab into the shoulder kind of hit. They both will get your attention pretty quick if you ain't holding em right. So to me it's like comparing apples to oranges.

I have done this, but with a Browning 1886 Carbine. Steel butt plate. 400g bullets at 2000 fps. Smartened up real quick and put a Sims slip on pad on it. Even with that pad I would rather shoot my .338 WM with 250s @ 2660 fps. I have since reduced the velocity in the 45-70.

Recently bought a Marlin SBL 45-70. It's the pre Ruger SBL. Shooting Hornady Lever Revolution the rifle recoil is mild IMO. My son is 15 and his way to describe the recoil is "it's a hard push rather than a sharp hit like with our bolt actions."

I've got limited experience shooting a .338 Win Mag, but to me the 45-70 recoil is milder, it's just different, more like a hard push.

I've got both & it depends upon how you load the 45-70. With factory loads suitable for the older rifles it's not too bad. If you load it full bore then you can get it to almost 458 Win Mag levels and it's a bitch.

The 45-70 can be anything from mild to wild or anywhere in between. If you stand on it in a modern rifle with heavier bullets it'll rattle your teeth worse than the 338 ever will.

I have a .45-70 Trapper and a light .338 W.M. with brake. I can't say I feel much difference between the 2.

Chucks Hawkes recoil table shows the heaviest .338 load at over 35 foot pounds of recoil and the heaviest 45-70 at 37.9 foot pounds and the velocity is higher for the 45-70 too. And the heaviest load he shows for the 45-70 is 350 grains at 1900 fps. You can load it a good bit hotter than that.

Thanks all.

I had a stainless Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70 and I found it fine to shoot with the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grain loads, but ammo availability compelled me to sell it on, in favour of a Ruger 77 Mk II .338WM I have owned for a few years but haven't shot yet.

Figured the Ruger would be a better subarctic fit for me, as the 250 grainers are easy to find. It's a little longer and a little heavier, but the stock suits scopes better, it's easier to take down and probably much more rugged.

I have had 4ea 338’s. I mainly shot 250 grain Partitions. Two 700’s and two 70’s. I’ve switched to 300 Weatherby and 200 grain partitions (700 Remington)
I have a couple 45-70’s. One is a very light Marlin, not sure how that compares to yours.
The light 45-70 seems to rap my right hand more than kick my shoulder. My heaviest loads in it are heavy cast and are loaded stout.

I mainly shoot the 45-70 off hand and I’ve shot those 338’s a lot off hand and off the bench. I’m thinking that maybe a dozen shots from the bench with those 338 loads make up a day.

I can’t answer your question directly I guess, but they are both manageable. I’ve taken the 45-70 PD shooting and my buddies didn’t appreciate it all that much. Never thought of taken the 338 shooting PD’s.

I have owned both and still have the 338. I had a highly customized 45-70 (guide gun) and sold it at a loss. For mild loads, it was fine. For the hot stuff, it was another story. The stock drop was terrible for recoil, and it was hard on the knuckles, and the lever throw seemed so long that at least to me, it was not really any faster than working a bolt action.

I don't know if my 338 WM with 250 gr bullets kicks any less according to a recoil chart, but it seems easier to manage, maybe just due to the straighter stock. I don't think it's any slower to run than a hard-kicking 45-70.

Me too. Owned both. Tricked out the Marlin with all the bells and whistles. Kicked like a mule and sold it at a substantial loss but was happy the day it shipped off. Still have the bolt action .338. Much more manageable in my humble opinion.

Seems like I made the right decision. The .338 adds about 5 inches to the length of the rifle, but I think the perception is greater than the actual difference in handiness. We can all take a 26" 20 gauge 870 into the field after grouse and call it light and handy, but a shorter rifle is somehow unwieldy in the same bush.

My book if they're both factory loads 330 it's going to kick a lot more. I have some hand loads that have been proven very safe 405 grain bullets at 1825 ft per second enough to live in the f*** out of you on both ends. And that was in an 18 1/2-in barrel 4570

The nice thing about the 45-70 is there is over the counter loads that make it a pussycat. Several years ago due to medical issues I couldn't handle much recoil. I was still able to hunt with my 45-70 with Remington 405's

I have not shot a Marlin Guide Gun but have shot my 1886 with steel carbine butt plate. It weighs ~7 lbs. My .338 weighs ~9 lbs with scope. I don't care to shoot the 45-70 even with light loads from the bench but can shoot the .338 quite a bit. I do have a pre 64 .300 H&H with steel butt plate and would rather shoot that than the 45-70. Once I put a Simms slip-on recoil pad on the 45-70, I can shoot 400g bullets at 2000 fps fairly comfortably. It still seems to move me around more than the .338 however due to the shape of the stock.

Wow! Living with both, I’m very surprised to find that you consider the shorter, 45-70 to be “unwieldy” in the timber/brush……that’s were the GG is most at home!


From short range to 600+ yards, I consider the .338 WM, to possibly be the best “all around” factory produced cartridge.

However, for timber/brush, where shots would very rarely exceed 200 yards and portability/quick handling is at a premium…..the little Guide Gun simply excels! I’ve heard the stories about the 45-70 recoil, but was pleasantly surprised to find out my hand loads, which have substantially more recoil than factory 45-70 ammo at original pressures were very comfortable to shoot from the bench! I have a good recoil pad on my rifle, perhaps if it were the old steel buttplate I would have a vastly different opinion! But, this is JMO! memtb

I didn't find the GG to be unwieldy at all. The comment was more that I think a 24" bolt action sporter isn't that unweildy either, especially if you count running around with a pump gun after small game. And there are tradeoffs, as I found out when going from a 24" M70 to an 18.5" Model Seven. IMO the muzzle blast and decreased accuracy was a bridge too far. I think a 22" FWT is the right balance at just over 7 lbs scoped.

I like the Guide Gun, but the simplicity and take down of the bolt gun wins it for me. Ammo is more plentiful and scopes are easier too.

I plan on running 210 grain TSXs in it, so that might take some of the wrath out of the recoil.

In spite of my comments, I certainly respect your decision on using the .338 WM. My wife loves her .338 WM, her only hunting rifle, and uses 225 TTSX’s for all of her hunting!

Good Luck and enjoy…..the .338 WM is a great cartridge! memtb

Though I have not hunted in an area where a short barreled rifle was needed due to brush in a very long time. I built a specialized rifle for that, a 350 Rem Mag on a 600 action.
The short rifles have an advantage, in my opinion, that doesn’t have to do with brush. They are quicker to get on target.
The longer rifles, in general, are easier to shoot accurately if the shooter has time - and more than likely would at the extreme range your considering.
My light 45-70 had a faster recoil, but I’m not sure that it had a heavier recoil.
Wanting a brush rifle and a long range rifle seems to me to be wanting opposites.

So subjective however in general an 8.5lbs 338 Win Mag with right stock and 250 gr bullets at 2,650 fps is no where near the felt recoil of a 45-70, 400 gr load from a 6.75lbs lever carbine at 1,950 fps, especially if that lever gun has a straight stock in lieu of a pistol grip stock. You’re roughly looking at mid to upper 30s ft-lbs of recoil for a 338 Win Mag vs mid to upper 40s ft-lbs of recoil for the 45-70. That 400 gr bullet in a light platform with a lever in hand is quite uncomfortable to shoot at 1,950 fps. I’ve shot both from bench work and would much rather touch off 12 rounds of 338 Win Mag in lieu of 6 rounds of the 45-70. But that’s just me.

Ouch. The Hornady Leverevolutions felt mild to me. Those 400 grain loads sound more like .458 WM fatigue. I had a Ruger in .458 Lott and that rattled me, but a .375H&H was fine.

memtb: thanks! Variety is fine and I respect the lever actions too. Must be doing something well to stay popular for way over 100 years.

Don't have a 45/70, but have shot a 444 Marlin since 1981...not much real world difference, IMHO..

I also have a couple of 338 Win Mags...

For the 444, my standard loads consist of using a 300 gr XTP bullet, and then loads can vary depending on the application and distance to be used..

powder I've used for years has been SR 4759.. and I bought about 5 eight pound containers of it before it was discontinued...

my charges are usually one of the following with the 300 gr XTP, depending on distance to be shot... 20 gr, 25, 30 gr and 35 grain.

I have used the same loads within a 338 Win Mag case for the same type of service...

depending on distances from 150 to 200 yds.. with bullet weight of Hornady 200, 225 and 250 grain SPs

once again, with 20, 25, 30 and 35 grains of SR 4759...and once again, varying on the distance to be used... from 100 to 200 yds..
where 96% of all game are taken within....

about the same is also applied to my Model 70 in 338/06....